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The New Face of Poker(a funny little story)


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I think Dane put it best when he said he would have to be pretty short stacked to call. With a little over the average chip amount, I'm not willing to call here behind 3 raises....if your read would have turned out to be correct on the "trembler," you would have looked like a genius. And even if you thought it was a coin flip at best, there's 3 people in that hand with a chance of sucking out on you. Good call.

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OK....i did not say to go all-in anytime, i'm just saying that it wasnt that right play, and to those of you who are saying he should of folded, look what hands you were up against...4 4, A 9, 6 6, and 6 6....apparently im an idoit because i said i would of called....WITH THE BEST HAND!!!
You must be playing with those new see through cards. Or do you expect to read the cards off the reflection in those mirror sunglasses? ::takes a deep breath:: Don't feed the trolls...Don't feed the trolls...
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The story is not about the correct play. I didnt have xray vision nor did I have the poker odds calculator. QQ after the reraise and rereraise and flat all in call looked like 22 to me... basically playing a 2 outer. I dont like 2 outers. And I did get my chips in a better situation later ... AA vs AK all in preflop. 4 flush clubs knocked me out with 90 left. Also, the 3x the BB raise was the standard raise at the table at that point in the tourney. And with JJ or QQ , I try to show as much stregnth as possible , especially from early pos. Anyway, I am glad this story sparked some good discussion.

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I probably do this too often... but I feel I have a decent table read midway into a tourney.In early position, (UTG or UTG+1) I would limp in about 50% of the time, if I felt that there was a better than 50% chance I would get a raise. The raiser usually gets a strong re-raise (or even all-in sometimes) from me. In a few cases, a fold or a call.If I am wrong about the table and wind up with 3 limpers (or worse), then I play it as best I can. Overall, this has led me to what I believe (no poker tracker stats - always live game) are larger pots when I win and smaller pots when I lose. More losing pots though, but I also feel I get more decisions to make and I prefer doing that in a tourney (over a ring game).This is one of my plays that I would really like to study and analyze when I have time, but would welcome your input and criticism. All I can say is my memory and limited experience are rewarding this play. Also, I'd really like to track my live play more and looking for a good shorthand/system to use. Any help here?Laslty, I will never ever use this play on anyone on this forum. :D

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YOU SHOULDNT OF FOLDED!!!!! NO WAY DO YOU FOLD QUEENS PREFLOP..YOU DESERVED TO LOSE IF YOU FOLDED THEM
This comment is stupid. The fold has to be the correct move here. No way I'm calling with all that action out there. You've only put 600 in there, no big deal. Fold, pay attention to the flop, learn something, and move on.
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The fact that the next best odds at the table was 27% to your 54% is irrelevant. 54% is 54%, and you have to beat the mob to win this one, so it's a coin flip. Even knowing the hands and the odds, I wouldn't put my whole tournament on the line for a coin flip unless I was feeling pretty balsy. Statistically speaking if you do this twice in a tourney, you're going home with nothing.Not knowing the hands and the odds, I have a hard time understanding why anyone would put their tournament on the line with that kind of action in front of you. If these guys know what they're doing, you're already beat. If they dont, it's completely random. They could have monsters or nothing at all. Save your chips for later. Now, I haven't been playing very long, and I have a lot of lessons left to learn, but the one I learned first is that "go big or go home" had me going home more often than not.

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Guest XXEddie
This comment is stupid.  The fold has to be the correct move here.  No way I'm calling with all that action out there.  You've only put 600 in there, no big deal.  Fold, pay attention to the flop, learn something, and move on.
Yes it was......And i corrected my statement....but apparently you just read that one.BPV said "you could only assume that at best at least one person had you completely crushed."In addition, here is the main reason why I strongly disagree with all your decisions. Like BPV, Most of you are just figuring your beat, The only hand you should really be worried about is pocket kings. Only the first caller could possibly have aces because if 3 or 4 people are raising, I smooth call knowing someone will raise again 99% of the time. I would be more worried about kings because they aould raise or even go all-in trying to force out any ace (example: AK, AQ, AJ...)It turns out my call would of been the right play which is why I dont see why all of you are saying a call would be stupid...especially BPV who also said to me "you are probably about 16, you have a lot of things to learn" apparently, you guys have a lot to learn because to what I've read, I am the only won who would have made the right play in that situation.
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Fold it... But aside from that... Is everyone missing the fact that Trembler over there.. Re-Raised with A9??? Who cares about the Queens...Look at the stupidity on everyone else at this table... and for a 500 buy-in. That's just sad.

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So what were the cards that came out? Would you have won?I agree that laying down was the right thing to do. Most of the responses are from the same people you see on Stars and other sites who refuse to believe that anyone has anything on the first hand or in a blind.

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I would potentially be more inclined to call here... maybe... depending on my read of the first 2 players...My read of the situation would be that...I have Q-Q...Trembler and next player all in are the players that I would worry about and need to put on a hand...What does trembler have??He could have a monster... however, I have also played with many players who are new to the game that tremble when they are getting out of line as well... trembling is not a solid tell in my opinion...I don't agree with the logic of him having K-K... If I read my player to be a solid player I would put him on A-Ks or A-A... The next player who went all in for 2100 is the only other player who I would worry has me beat...After that... the other players all in are just deciding to gamble... they want to juice the game up and either get a big stack or get into the side action...Another thing you need to consider... are your goals for the tournament... Do you want to squeak into the money or win the big money in one of the top 3 places... personally, i am going broke or winning the big money...The next element you need to consider is how much the pot is laying for a call... Unfortunately, the original poster did not state how many chips the trembler has... but you have everyone else covered... you have to call 2100 more and if the trembler has 2700... then you are calling 2100 more to win about 10500... 5/1 odds to see all 5 cards come... seems to be decent pot odds... And the potential overlay for the ability to manuever with a big stack the rest of the tournament... seems that I might want to roll the dice...What you guys need to remember is that this is a tournament... and how the great players win is to build big stacks for when they reach the final table... which means you need to gamble a little bit and also not be scared of going broke... squeaking into the money should not be your goal... After I make that analysis... I would say NO TIME BETTER THEN NOW TO GAMBLE A LITTLE!!Even if you lose you are not totally cripled for the rest of the tournament!!

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Maybe his was only 54% to win but the next closest player to win was the A 9 suited which was only 27% to win. Here is the full oddsQQ-53%66-Both about 1%44-18%A9-27%So your in pretty good shape. But like I said, do what you wanna do
for the record I am in total agreement with the "you do your thing I'll do mine" philosophy that is why guys like Phil H. and Dan Harrington can both win the WSOP...the beauty of poker.the following is my rationale based on the stats you provided and nothing more.You are absolutely right in your statistics and if I was sure of a 54% advantage to finish the hand with 5X my stack I would be all in in a heartbeat...it would be foolish not to be all in on a coin flip for the reward and the help the big stack would provide for winning the big cash. I have nothing against a 54% coin flip that gives me a huge stack....the thing that I would consider...and is why I would lay down the hand is...if in fact I was willing to face a coin flip and I was 100% sure with my read that there are no KK or AA hands out there...I would still have to somehow know that in the 4 hands out there, two of them have the exact same cards...otherwise if they don't and instead of them both having 66 they say have 66 and 55 or any other reckless calling hand even 66 and 72offsuit I am now ony a 39% favourite to win the hand at best.Even at 39% it may be reasonable to gamble...but only if a person's reads are 100% correct 100% of the time....and frankly there is only one person that can do that that I know of...me...IN MY DREAMS!I would also suggest that if I were playing against the exact same hands holding AA and the only read I can't be sure of is the one that puts 2 players on the same hand(which I think would require Kreskin...or Dr. Phil)I would be well advised to lay the bullets down as I am almost certainly an underdog around 39-42% and at best a 53% favourite against very specific random hands....and for the record I probably would end up calling with AA because I'm a fool for aces and I always hated math...I wouldn't be able to get away from them preflop...no matter how conservative my strategy might be at the time...or what the math says. :D for what it's worth.KK
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if you change only 1 of these opponents to "sane" and give them AA or KK, queens are a 3:1 dog, which still makes it a tough laydown as you're getting 5:1 from the pot.this is a tournament, however, and a good tournament player lays this hand down (you're broke, you're done) unless it's winner take all.

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good advice in this room. Im glad to see it. Im sure someday soon I will come a'callin' with a equivalant story/query .

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Guest XXEddie
if you change only 1 of these opponents to "sane" and give them AA or KK, queens are a 3:1 dog, which still makes it a tough laydown as you're getting 5:1 from the pot.this is a tournament, however, and a good tournament player lays this hand down (you're broke, you're done) unless it's winner take all.
Acually QQ v. AA or KK is about 4.5:1 (roughly about 82/18)
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This is a hand that happened to me when I was in a home game and we were at the Final 3. A guy named Justin went all in preflop I looked at my cards and since he had the smallest chipstack I almost instantly called. Then my friend Josh picked up Pocket Queens and said "As much as I would hate to fold this hand Im going to." Well turns out I win with an Ace high King kicker AND Josh would've hit Trip Queens. He was devestated but I told him, "If I was in your position I would've done the same thing."I think your QQ laydown was a good one. Josh would've ran into my AK and if I can recall Justin had A9.

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I actually disagree with that one. I can't rattle off statistics, but with only three left I would call almost every time with QQ, unless I had picked up on a previous tell showing one of the players had a huge hand. It is one thing when four out of eight other players call all-in, but three handed QQ is a monster. This same thing happened a few times to an amatuer at the world series when he was up against Daniel and Juana, and those hands when his queens held up won the bracelet for him.

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Maybe his was only 54% to win but the next closest player to win was the A 9 suited which was only 27% to win. Here is the full oddsQQ-53%66-Both about 1%44-18%A9-27%So your in pretty good shape. But like I said, do what you wanna do
Breaking down the odds after the fact is pointless. He absolutely made the right call folding. I'm curious how he ended up fairing against these guys.
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Guest XXEddie

Oh I get it, so according to you, he was right to fold the best hand....that makes sense. It wasnt the right play, but I can see why he made it

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Oh I get it, so according to you, he was right to fold the best hand....that makes sense. It wasnt the right play, but I can see why he made it
You know it's the best hand after the fact. It's always easier after the fact, heh?
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For the 100000000th time, you do what you wanna do, I'll do what I wanna do. I would call, and in that spot, I was right, but I know therye will be time when I run into AA or KK, so be it, I'll call you'll fold. I don't care what you say thats the way I play. Now, sometimes I might fold QQ, I've even had to consider calling all-in preflop with KK It just depends on the situation. Sometimes I'll hesitate to call with KK against one person, sometimes I'll instantly move in with QQ against 4 people it just depends. Now get of my back about how I play cards. You do what you want to do, I'll do what I want to do.
although i respect your opinion on this hand.. it must be pretty easy to say that you would have called with QQ after seeing what ended up happening in this hand. Hell, if i knew what everyone else had in that hand i would call with QQ also. :wink:
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Guest XXEddie
For the 100000000th time, you do what you wanna do, I'll do what I wanna do. I would call, and in that spot, I was right, but I know therye will be time when I run into AA or KK, so be it, I'll call you'll fold. I don't care what you say thats the way I play. Now, sometimes I might fold QQ, I've even had to consider calling all-in preflop with KK It just depends on the situation. Sometimes I'll hesitate to call with KK against one person, sometimes I'll instantly move in with QQ against 4 people it just depends. Now get of my back about how I play cards. You do what you want to do, I'll do what I want to do.
although i respect your opinion on this hand.. it must be pretty easy to say that you would have called with QQ after seeing what ended up happening in this hand. Hell, if i knew what everyone else had in that hand i would call with QQ also. :wink:
I didnt see what the hands were until after I decided to call....youre just jealous of my skillThat should start some shit
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I read these posts all the time, but never actually post my own. This story made me want to respond with a hand i played last week in Atlantic CIty at the Tropicana. I was in the SB with QQ......2nd position raises....a middle player reraises........cutoff is all in........button is all in..........so i muck the QQ with only the SB invested and watch AA take down JJ, AK, 99..........if you are only in the pot for 1 raise or less........why put all your chips at risk hoping to get lucky? Just because you have a good hand doesnt mean you have to play it

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man i'd love to play a live money game with you eddie...anyways the folding of QQ was absolutely correct...i'll recall a hand i played in a nl 500 game where i raised utg with QQ, the player to my left with around $250 just goes all in, then his left with the same amount calls all in, then a short stack of $150 calls too...i only raised to $50 so obviously i fold...flop comes AJ10...turn a 5...river a Q!. A queen hit!!...yeah rite...if i called i still finished fourth on that hand out of 4...first guy AA, second guy Ak, short stack KQ...hahah sucks for AA tho....oh well

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