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PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FCP)MP ($212.75)Hero ($244.85)Preflop: Hero is CO with Q :D , Q :club: . 1 fold, MP raises to $6, Hero raises to $16, 3 folds, MP calls $10.Flop: ($35) 9 :5c , A :ts , A :D(2 players)MP checks, Hero checks.Turn: ($35) 2 :D(2 players)MP checks, Hero checks.River: ($35) K :4h(2 players)MP checks, Hero checks.I've been thinking a lot about "betting for a reason" and it's turning me into a passive player post flop. Bet either when a worse hand will call, a better hand will fold or to protect our hand. Villain is pretty standard TAG/sLAG (27/11/3 or so) and haven't seen anything notable out of him. When he leads and calls my 3-bet I put him on something like TT-QQ (KK or AA likely 4-bet), or pretty much any two broadways. Possibly smaller pairs since he's getting about enough to call for set value. The 3-bet was a hair small by accident - meant to make it 18 - probably should have been 20 but I don't think that makes a ton of difference here?On the flop- nothing that beats us (trips or boat) is folding- I don't think anything we beat is calling - possibly TT or JJ but I think it's unlikely??- anything we beat has at best 3 outs (Kx or smaller pocket pair)Do we bet the flop anyway? Once the flop checks do we bet the blank turn?

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i've had issues in the past with being passive in situations like this but i now pretty much always b/f this flop if i'm called i'm slowing down and checking in position if villian checks turn and calling most river bets. a competant player will b/f the turn if you check behind the flop. this can become an average sized leak imo.

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I've been thinking a lot about "betting for a reason" and it's turning me into a passive player post flop. Bet either when a worse hand will call, a better hand will fold or to protect our hand.
I went through the same stage and thought process as you a while back. When you start analysing like that you start checking behind a ton of hands on flops and playing weakly with hands like A9 on J96 flops. You start pot controlling every time.When you c/bet 44 OOP on a K85r flop, you aren't bluffing and you aren't value betting. No worse hands call and virtually no better hands fold (maybe 66, 77). It is still the right move because you are protecting your hand.You aren't necessarily protecting your hand from overcards pairing on the turn, you are protecting your overall expected equity in the pot. If you check, you give up all control, and you can be easily bluffed off. By betting you protect your hand from being bluffed.The change for me was going from needing a reason to bet, to needing a reason not to.
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Interesting post, simo_8ball.c-bets are generally dark tunnel bets.

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You aren't necessarily protecting your hand from overcards pairing on the turn, you are protecting your overall expected equity in the pot. If you check, you give up all control, and you can be easily bluffed off. By betting you protect your hand from being bluffed.
That's kind of the conclusion I've been approaching as I think about this.
The change for me was going from needing a reason to bet, to needing a reason not to.
I assume you mean in hands where you have the lead? I think it's easy to look at a hand like this and say there's no better hands calling, no worse hands folding and not much to protect against but that's pretty much over ruled by "I 3-bet pre". Really I think it should be very rare for you to 3-bet pre and then check the flop. There's also no point in slow playing this hand - villain can't improve to something we still beat.
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Alright guys, none of you have suggested the way I would play the hand. Let me know what you think of this line.Check flop.Bet $23 on turn to get value from midpairs which I think dominate his range after checking twice. If hero has a lag image it would help with this value bet. I normally have a lag image so this is how I would play it with my standard image.Bet $42 on river (pot would be $81). Part of his calling range on the turn could be KQ but I think it's mostly mid-pairs. Anyone else play it like this?I think it's a fairly obvious turn bet, the river is a little bit thiner. By the way, nice post Simo.

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i think preflop is a pretty big mistake. although it doesnt change a ton in this hand, i think a lot of weaker players are much more likely to call your tiny reraise with a hand like A6s or some other weak ace. fwiw, my standard 3bet here is to 22.that being said, i usually check the flop here, and if he leads turn, i will call 1 bet most of the time, and fold the river unless he makes a non-standard bet, or something seems fishy to me. if he checks twice, i will almost almost make a standard cbet on the turn. If he calls, and the river is a safe card, i make another bet a lot of the time. I think getting 2 streets of value with this hand is great. and i think the turn and river are definitely the best places to get that value. If you bet the flop, i think it allows him to outplay us a lot more often.Jesseedit: i just saw that the river here is a king. i might check the river if he called my turn bet, because sometimes players will make a call on the turn with a KQ type of hand, because they think you are completely bluffing.

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I've been thinking about this hand and my post, if we bet $23 on the turn and villain calls the pot would be $81 going into the river. I think my earlier bet of $42 is a little on the high side given how weak his range is. I'd like a bet of $35-42 on the river.

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Why?
A few reasons - 1) I think that checking behind the flop and firing the turn is a pretty good plan when you've missed completely as you're getting called on the flop a lot on this board, but if you wait till the turn to C-bet you often(from my experience anyway) get more respect and the villain is less eager to contest further. Hence if you want to get called this would be the wrong way to do it. If that makes sense2) I think bet/check/bet gets called a LOT lighter than bet/bet/bet or check/bet/bet (i don't think this is a paticulary bad line though), again thinking about this in reverse, how often do you kick yourself when you miss, C-bet the flop, check the turn and then fire a bluff on the river and get called by bottom pair? I almost never bet/check/bet as a bluff because you get called so lightly. If you bet the turn, the villain has to think of the possibility he's facing a river bet aswell, whereas on the river there's no more action and he an call a certain bet quite happily.
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Here's why I don't like betting that flop.Villain raises and you 3bet, villain calls.Flop is AAxWhat's villain going to do if he has an ace? Check.What's villain going to do if he has a midpair? Check.We are checking behind for information so we can bet for value on later streets when we're sure we have the best hand.If he's got a hand like Ax-AJ I think he check/calls the flop bet. Because "zomg I have trips!!"If he's got a mid-pair he folds a lot and sometimes he'll call because "theres two aces, no way he has one!"So I'm checking this flop to help narrow his range. When he doesn't lead the turn I'm pretty sure we have the best hand and can now value bet. If he checked an ace twice, well, nice play, you fooled me.

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Here's why I don't like betting that flop.Villain raises and you 3bet, villain calls.Flop is AAxWhat's villain going to do if he has an ace? Check.What's villain going to do if he has a midpair? Check.We are checking behind for information so we can bet for value on later streets when we're sure we have the best hand.If he's got a hand like Ax-AJ I think he check/calls the flop bet. Because "zomg I have trips!!"If he's got a mid-pair he folds a lot and sometimes he'll call because "theres two aces, no way he has one!"So I'm checking this flop to help narrow his range. When he doesn't lead the turn I'm pretty sure we have the best hand and can now value bet. If he checked an ace twice, well, nice play, you fooled me.
I don't think checking behind gives us any information at all really.He most probably checks 100% of his range on the flopWe really have no idea what it means if he leads the turn after we check, so we gain no information there, he could be leading with a mid pair, a complete bluff, the ace, anything, we just don't know. I think a lot of people will check an ace there as well, and a lot of them will check/call just like they would do on the flop so we really don't know what they have.I don't think we gain any information on his hand by checking the flop, and i don't think it matters or would be a reason to check the flop even if we did.
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TBH I just mix up my play here.I sometimes check with an ace, I sometimes bet with an ace.I sometimes check with a pair, I sometimes bet with a pair.I sometimes bet with air, I sometimes check with air.Different opponents, different reads, different stacks.

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Here's why I don't like betting that flop.Villain raises and you 3bet, villain calls.Flop is AAxWhat's villain going to do if he has an ace? Check.What's villain going to do if he has a midpair? Check.We are checking behind for information so we can bet for value on later streets when we're sure we have the best hand.If he's got a hand like Ax-AJ I think he check/calls the flop bet. Because "zomg I have trips!!"If he's got a mid-pair he folds a lot and sometimes he'll call because "theres two aces, no way he has one!"So I'm checking this flop to help narrow his range. When he doesn't lead the turn I'm pretty sure we have the best hand and can now value bet. If he checked an ace twice, well, nice play, you fooled me.
This is wrong. You have realize that several things come into play here check you do not bet this flop.You show weakness to a midpair, who is probably going to bet the turn even if he thinks you're slowplaying, and puts us to a decision. Obviously we could call, but what if he bets again on the river? Are we just blind calling him down and praying he has Jacks or something? I'm not a fan of that.You show other players that you're only going to bet when you hit, and check when you miss, which is just blah.We gain NO information by checking the flop. None.We lose value from Jacks/1010/99/88/77/etc. that would put money in, and we also gain a good solid read that we're crushed if we get c/r on this flop.I'm in the Doyle Brunson school of poker that says Aggression > Passivity, though I think this is a very commonly difficult place in NLHE to make solid bets/checks/calls/folds, but I just don't really think that you gain ANYTHING by playing passively.
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You show weakness to a midpair, who is probably going to bet the turn even if he thinks you're slowplaying, and puts us to a decision. Obviously we could call, but what if he bets again on the river? Are we just blind calling him down and praying he has Jacks or something? I'm not a fan of that.
This is obviously read dependent on the villain. No, I'm not calling it down. I'd call a turn bet and fold to a river bet. Who really fires two streets oop into a preflop 3bettor with a midpair on this board? Not many people. The only ones that do that are suicidal villains and people who have an ace.So when you bet the flop and are called, what's his range? I bet it's wider than if we checked behind.I think only AQ/AK check/raise this flop because we showed so much aggression preflop.
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This is obviously read dependent on the villain. No, I'm not calling it down. I'd call a turn bet and fold to a river bet. Who really fires two streets oop into a preflop 3bettor with a midpair on this board? Not many people. The only ones that do that are suicidal villains and people who have an ace.So when you bet the flop and are called, what's his range? I bet it's wider than if we checked behind.I think only AQ/AK check/raise this flop because we showed so much aggression preflop.
Uh, I fire two barrels with middle pair on the turn into an opponent who 3bets me preflop, checks an AAx board, and flat calls a bet on the turn and I'm a pretty tight player. It's like telegraphing their hand though. "I R HAVE TWO JACKS AND I R NOT WANTING YUO TO BET AYNTMORE."If we bet the flop and the guy flat calls, and I've seen him slowplay, then I'm done with the hand.If not, then I'd bet again and check behind on the river. Reads are really necessary for this hand.This is identical to a discussion was just had when Royal Tour advocated the passive line for a hand very similar to this. It just doesn't float my boat.
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Against most people i think you should call the turn and river if he bets.Think about it this way, we're putting in two bets in the hand anyway, calling lets him bet worse hands, betting makes sure h e can't check worse hands, either way i'm ok with putting in two bets somewhere post flop.

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Uh, I fire two barrels with middle pair on the turn into an opponent who 3bets me preflop, checks an AAx board, and flat calls a bet on the turn and I'm a pretty tight player. It's like telegraphing their hand though. Can't hero be slowplaying? Or at least in the eyes of villain? I don't slow play much, I don't know about the hero in this hand but it's gotta be something villain should be thinking about."I R HAVE TWO JACKS AND I R NOT WANTING YUO TO BET AYNTMORE."That's certainly part of our range. Does he want to bluff into us?If we bet the flop and the guy flat calls, and I've seen him slowplay, then I'm done with the hand.That loses some value from mid-pair type hands that might call the flop. I know this is really one level thinking but I know a lot of villains will defend their call with "There's two aces on the flop, he can't have one."Reads are really necessary for this hand.Agreed. So is hero's 3bet range/image
I think this hand has had a decent amount of discussion.
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when he checks flop to u i think u need to bet this to see where your at. if not for sure by the turn when he checked it to u if he calls. then u can slow down untell u improve. i like your 3 bet preflop obv, but don't check that down, u finally get a hand and u dont get any more hten just preflop raise.

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I think you should check this flop to get max value from a mid pair. If you check flop/bet turn you're going to get paid by 88-jj almost every time. On the river you can either check it down or make a value bet depending on how bad you're opponent is.

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