2 Pair Vs 3 To A Flush

[breathweapon 0]

Excuse the "hand converter," it was an IRL hand.500 dollar stacksButton limps 5 dollarsSmall Blind completes with 87o (Me)Big Bland checks behindFlopQ87 All SpadesPot 15 dollarsSmall Blind bets 15 dollarsBig Blind calls 15 dollarsButton raises to 90 dollarsSmall Blind is all in for 500 dollarsBig Blind foldsButton calls ...Should I have mucked this?

[LycoPoker54 0]

I think after the raise to 90, Button either has a set, AsKx, or possibly AxQx. If this was me, I would of called the raise and re-evaluated on the turn. You have 4 outs if he flopped the flush. If he has a set, youre basically dead in the water. The best you can hope for is a call with the A of spades. If i called the raise, and the turn was a blank, youd have to push at that point.

[David_Nicoson 1]

Yes.There's nothing in the pot.You're never way ahead. You're often way behind.

[LJB723 0]

I think after the raise to 90, Button either has a set, AsKx, or possibly AxQx. If this was me, I would of called the raise and re-evaluated on the turn. You have 4 outs if he flopped the flush. If he has a set, youre basically dead in the water. The best you can hope for is a call with the A of spades. If i called the raise, and the turn was a blank, youd have to push at that point.

I doubt he is limping otb with a pair or AK/Q when it has been folded to him. That seems crazy. But he could have the flush or big flush draw. There is no need to shove over his raise. I call and fold turn UI if faced with more aggression

[Andromeda 0]

I wouldn't have been against calling the $90 here but shoving IMO was a bad idea.

[breathweapon 0]

I have the 87 for 2 pair, so that discounts a set, and even if the opponent does show up with a set he has to think about folding it to a flopped flush. After the big blind called, I put him on at least one spade, when the button re-raised I thought he was either holding the A of spades, protecting top pair or at worst had a higher pair + spade (limped AA on the button with an A of spades or KQ/QJ/QT with a spade kicker).If I re-raise, I'm pot committed to a shove, and if he shoves it's even a stronger indications of a draw/combo draw. I just decided to shove first in order to be certain the big blind couldn't shove over both of us or call along.I'm positive flat calling is wrong, if the SB calls it's impossible to know what to do on the turn.

[mtdesmoines 3]

I wouldn't have been against calling the $90 here but shoving IMO was a bad idea.

[BaseJester 1]

I doubt he is limping otb with a pair or AK/Q when it has been folded to him. That seems crazy. But he could have the flush or big flush draw. There is no need to shove over his raise. I call and fold turn UI if faced with more aggression

Don't you think you're going to face aggression if you check?Either you make him your bitch or he makes you his bitch.If you call out of position without knowing where you are, you're letting him make you his bitch.Just fold.

[breathweapon 0]

Ok, how do you flat call this? If the BB flat calls behind you, what's your plan on the turn? 285$ is in the pot, I'm forfeited against 12 outs, and any move at the pot gives us all the odds to call to the river.Do you not at least re-raise here to chase out the SB?

[Acid_Knight 2]

1. Nobody folds a set 2. Bottom 2 pair is soooooooooooooooooo vulnerable. If he has Qh2s, he's a favorite over your hand.This is a pretty standard fold. You'll never be in very good shape against the other players and you could already be crushed.Folding to the $90 flop raise is the best move.

[LJB723 0]

Don't you think you're going to face aggression if you check?Either you make him your bitch or he makes you his bitch.If you call out of position without knowing where you are, you're letting him make you his bitch.Just fold.

What is it with you and the word bitch? Did you just learn it?

[breathweapon 0]

1. Nobody folds a set 2. Bottom 2 pair is soooooooooooooooooo vulnerable. If he has Qh2s, he's a favorite over your hand.This is a pretty standard fold. You'll never be in very good shape against the other players and you could already be crushed.Folding to the $90 flop raise is the best move.

In retrospect, that's the line I wish I'd taken, but it just felt so weak tight. Final handSmall blind calls and reveals A of spades and 8 of clubsBig blind calls and reveals K of spades and Q of clubsSpade hits the river.

[BaseJester 1]

What is it with you and the word bitch? Did you just learn it?

It's like a trademark.

[Acid_Knight 2]

In retrospect, that's the line I wish I'd taken, but it just felt so weak tight. Final handSmall blind calls and reveals A of spades and 8 of clubsBig blind calls and reveals K of spades and Q of clubsSpade hits the river.

KsQx is a favorite over your hand on its own.

[LJB723 0]

In retrospect, that's the line I wish I'd taken, but it just felt so weak tight. Final handSmall blind calls and reveals A of spades and 8 of clubsBig blind calls and reveals K of spades and Q of clubsSpade hits the river.

I thought you were SB, the BB folded and the btn called?All 3 of you were all-in then?

[LJB723 0]

It's like a trademark.

Like Scotty Ngyuen's "Baby"? Could be huge!

[BaseJester 1]

In retrospect, that's the line I wish I'd taken, but it just felt so weak tight. Final handSmall blind calls and reveals A of spades and 8 of clubsBig blind calls and reveals K of spades and Q of clubsSpade hits the river.

Edit. oops.

[David_Nicoson 1]

Just for the record, you got your money in good there. If they show you their hands, you happily put your money in.

Board: Qs 8s 7sDead:  	equity 	win 	tie 		  pots won 	pots tied	Hand 0: 	40.421%	  40.31% 	00.11% 			  1456 			4.00   { 87o }Hand 1: 	41.196%	  41.09% 	00.11% 			  1484 			4.00   { As8c }Hand 2: 	18.383%	  18.38% 	00.00% 			   664 			0.00   { KsQc }

You're not, however, making a ton of money even in this, fairly good, scenario.

[StilettoNole 0]

Don't you think you're going to face aggression if you check?Either you make him your bitch or he makes you his bitch.If you call out of position without knowing where you are, you're letting him make you his bitch.

Thank you, sir. You are a genius. Never stop posting and never stop saying bitch at every chance you get.

[breathweapon 0]

I thought you were SB, the BB folded and the btn called?All 3 of you were all-in then?

Creative license, I wanted to see what other people's ranges were and what they would have done if it didn't result in 3 AIs on the flop. Once I shoved the button's raise the BB's flat call was "unexpected," and it superficially created the pot odds to justify my shove and the button's call in retrospect. That's the reason I was drawing more attention to the "what if the SB calls or shoves" scenarios, I felt I needed to isolate with 2 pair and didn't want the SB to complicate matters, and it's also the reason I think calling in this position to check it on the turn is just out of the question. I figured the shove would get the BB off of an A or K of spades, but the pair brought him in.It's a loaded hand, If I had raised to 250 and if the BB had shoved I don't know if I could have laid it down if the button had folded, and if the BB had shoved and the button had called it's a basic pot odds call. All I could do was base the flop decision on the button's re-raise, and in the end the button had to make the most difficult call of the entire hand.The BB just snap called and the button and I ended up discussing the hand for about an hour with the rest of the rail birds, the button's ranges for the blinds were a small made flush and either a steal, 2 pair or a set at worst.I guess 2 pair is a fold, if it were a set I could have better justified re-raising to 250 and then calling a shove if the villain had a made hand.

[mtdesmoines 3]

Creative license, I wanted to see what other people's ranges were and what they would have done if it didn't result in 3 AIs on the flop. Once I shoved the button's raise the BB's flat call was "unexpected," and it superficially created the pot odds to justify my shove and the button's call in retrospect. That's the reason I was drawing more attention to the "what if the SB calls or shoves" scenarios, I felt I needed to isolate with 2 pair and didn't want the SB to complicate matters, and it's also the reason I think calling in this position to check it on the turn is just out of the question. I figured the shove would get the BB off of an A or K of spades, but the pair brought him in.It's a loaded hand, If I had raised to 250 and if the BB had shoved I don't know if I could have laid it down if the button had folded, and if the BB had shoved and the button had called it's a basic pot odds call. All I could do was base the flop decision on the button's re-raise, and in the end the button had to make the most difficult call of the entire hand.The BB just snap called and the button and I ended up discussing the hand for about an hour with the rest of the rail birds, the button's ranges for the blinds were a small made flush and either a steal, 2 pair or a set at worst.I guess 2 pair is a fold, if it were a set I could have better justified re-raising to 250 and then calling a shove if the villain had a made hand.

OK, so I was thinking about this hand over lunch. Thinking, thinking, thinking. And I thought if I were playing the hand, I would have CALLED the flop raise of $90 (or whatever it was, let's not get technical), and probably bet hard or shoved the turn, depending on my read and how the hand felt to me on the turn, based on the flop action. And I think that's the right way to play this spot. It's perfectly natural to expect the villains here to have TPFD/OESD/FD .... we're ahead of a ton of one player's range; the problem is that we have two players in. A lot of the tough decisions we've seen lately seem to involved bottom two with heavy action. If you play a lot of sooted connectors (and I play almost all of them I get), you're going to be put in these marginal situations a ton -- flush draws with gutterball straight draws, open enders, naked flush draws with unders ... all the bad spots are waiting for you when you play sooted connectors and sooted gappers. Personally, I love the spots because I can read pretty well. Your results are sometimes pretty volatile, but I think these spots are opportunities to exploit every kind of player -- from weak to tight to loose -- if we have a good, solid read on each individual situation.

[BaseJester 1]

OK, so I was thinking about this hand over lunch. Thinking, thinking, thinking. And I thought if I were playing the hand, I would have CALLED the flop raise of $90 (or whatever it was, let's not get technical), and probably bet hard or shoved the turn, depending on my read and how the hand felt to me on the turn, based on the flop action. And I think that's the right way to play this spot. It's perfectly natural to expect the villains here to have TPFD/OESD/FD .... we're ahead of a ton of one player's range; the problem is that we have two players in.

What's really the list of blanks? Do you like seeing an offsuit jack? Or king? or Ace? Sometimes he has a made flush. Then the villain thinks, "That bitch just gave me 300 bills drawing to 4 outs."

[mtdesmoines 3]

What's really the list of blanks? Do you like seeing an offsuit jack? Or king? or Ace? Sometimes he has a made flush. Then the villain thinks, "That bitch just gave me 300 bills drawing to 4 outs."

That's exactly the point of playing bottom two. If any overs or sooted drops on the turn, we can abandon the hand. Wait, were we in the SB? This hand is more difficult to play OOP. Anyway, if any unsooted under (a ton of cards here -- has to be T or higher to worry us), hits, I think we can shove and fold them on the turn and never see the nasty river. If villain calls with made flush, we have outs -- not a lot, but we're not drawing dead dead dead.

[BaseJester 1]

That's exactly the point of playing bottom two. If any overs or sooted drops on the turn, we can abandon the hand. Wait, were we in the SB? This hand is more difficult to play OOP. Anyway, if any unsooted under (a ton of cards here -- has to be T or higher to worry us), hits, I think we can shove and fold them on the turn and never see the nasty river.

A ten or higher or a spade is a lot of cards. Some of them beat us, some of them don't, and most of them make us wonder.Folding > raising all-in > calling

[mtdesmoines 3]

A ten or higher or a spade is a lot of cards. Some of them beat us, some of them don't, and most of them make us wonder.Folding > raising all-in > calling

But we only have to fade it one time. As it played out, if we don't see the scare card, we can shove and close down the hand or get an atrocious call.