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Lhe Challenge(?) Thread


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At this level w/o any reads, I think this would be a terrible place for a bluff raise. He raised pf and called this flop. If he's retarded enough to peel an underpair on this flop, i think you need to bet the turn. Otherwise, I don't think you're never getting a better hand to fold after checking the turn. And I think most Kx or Jx have hit at least 2 pair on that board. Ax is never folding with this line.Good idea. Wrong situation.

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^^^thatBesides, the pot just isn't big enough to spew bluff. There's not a hand he can hold other than air that you can get him to fold as played. I'd prefer to bet turn, check river.

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I'd prefer to bet turn, check river.
What hands are peeling the flop that fold this turn? Q9 is the only true draw on the flop but I hold blockers to that. Is something like K9 really going to peel oop there? I just really feel like betting turn is burning money, especially since he can ever bluff c/r that turn if he's tricky and lots of hands that I would 3bet with can't even call down.
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What hands are peeling the flop that fold this turn? Q9 is the only true draw on the flop but I hold blockers to that. Is something like K9 really going to peel oop there? I just really feel like betting turn is burning money, especially since he can ever bluff c/r that turn if he's tricky and lots of hands that I would 3bet with can't even call down.
exactly so what hands are you targeting by raising this river?I like to bet the turn for the tiny fold equity/value vs bad kings/smaller pp's/gutters and for a free river showdown.
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exactly so what hands are you targeting by raising this river?I like to bet the turn for the tiny fold equity/value vs bad kings/smaller pp's/gutters and for a free river showdown.
Well, I've actually repped KK/QQ here, which just pulled ahead of a lot of Ax, Jx and Tx hands on the river. Obv if he has a T he isnt folding, but something like AJ/QJ might fold to a river raise. I think a lot of times he can be "value-betting" very weak here, as I've shown weakness on the turn and now a scare card comes, so hes going to try to turn his Ax or whatever into a bluff. I have no knowledge on if villain can hand-read but theres tons of hands in his range that should NOT be able to call a raise.BTW, for the turn bet, do you really think a smaller PP calls again here? Most 88- hands would fold the flop anyway, and what gutters can he have besides K9? Seems like way too thin of value when his range crushes me. I understand trying to get a free river SD, but I don't think we're ever going to get to one with the best hand here.
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fwiw, i instasupertotally shut down after one postflop bullet against like 90% of opponents. the only other line i would take is bet/fold, bet/fold, bet/fold, and that would be against people that are going to turn raise any 2p combo or AQ and be able to fold a king somewheres.

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How have you repped KK?
Because the line I would take with KK in a 3bet pot IP on an ace-high flop like this is bet flop, chk behind turn, call all rivers. (assuming i'm UI, of course). Here some players might bet the turn again because of the gutshot, but at least IMO, most competent players would not. The value is still too thin there, hoping for QJ or Q9 I suppose, and no better hand is ever folding. If the opponent can hand read, he has to think KK/QQ is a very legitimate holding for me here when I check behind the turn. What else chks behind there? AJ+/AA/TT/JJ/KQ all still bet. 77-99 might literally be the only other hands besides KK/QQ that chk behind here in a 3bet pot, and you have to figure that unless he has notes/read, he would weight the range more to QQ/KK.
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fwiw, i instasupertotally shut down after one postflop bullet against like 90% of opponents. the only other line i would take is bet/fold, bet/fold, bet/fold, and that would be against people that are going to turn raise any 2p combo or AQ and be able to fold a king somewheres.
Agreed, but to the river as played, does a bluff raise work ~ 25% of the time here?
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Agreed, but to the river as played, does a bluff raise work ~ 25% of the time here?
more like 10%, tops, imo. the thing is that probably 90% of your opponents through 2/4 or 3/6 are just never, ever, ever going to bet/fold any street of any hand, really, unless you table select badly and end up at one filled with 2p2 breakeven grinders.you have to remember, too, that there are not a lot of hands that raise/call pre, c/c that sort of flop, then bet the river. i'm not sure what range that you think you're bluffing against, really. like K9/KJ//J9?
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Well, that's why I didn't do it here. :club: Just knew that the river bluff raise wasn't in my repertoire, and thought initially that this might be a good place to try it. You're probably right that no one b/f's at the mid stakes, although I think that is the right play for much of villain's range here. AJ, Ax<T, QJ, Q9, maybe even weak Tx should be b/f here, IMO (not that they necessarily will)

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Well, that's why I didn't do it here. :club: Just knew that the river bluff raise wasn't in my repertoire, and thought initially that this might be a good place to try it. You're probably right that no one b/f's at the mid stakes, although I think that is the right play for much of villain's range here. AJ, Ax<T, QJ, Q9, maybe even weak Tx should be b/f here, IMO (not that they necessarily will)
well, not to sound facetious, but if your villains did what they should, you probably should game select better :ts.
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Because the line I would take with KK in a 3bet pot IP on an ace-high flop like this is bet flop, chk behind turn, call all rivers. (assuming i'm UI, of course). Here some players might bet the turn again because of the gutshot, but at least IMO, most competent players would not. The value is still too thin there, hoping for QJ or Q9 I suppose, and no better hand is ever folding. If the opponent can hand read, he has to think KK/QQ is a very legitimate holding for me here when I check behind the turn. What else chks behind there? AJ+/AA/TT/JJ/KQ all still bet. 77-99 might literally be the only other hands besides KK/QQ that chk behind here in a 3bet pot, and you have to figure that unless he has notes/read, he would weight the range more to QQ/KK.
You are losing ridiculous amounts of value checking back that turn with basically the nuts
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You are losing ridiculous amounts of value checking back that turn with basically the nuts
I disagree. I'm open to your opinion, as I'm here to learn, but to change my mind I'd need to know why you say that. Villains range on the flop is going to be basically pairs and discounted Q9/K9 type hands. Most lower PP will not peel this flop as my 3betting range has them crushed. What worse hands c/c the flop and c/c the turn? Like KJ/QJ only, basically - as the gutshots will typically give up when the board pairs. Ax is never folding, Tx is never folding, and a tricky villain can c/r pretty wide here and I can't call. Where is the value? Way too thin IMO.By "value checking" KK on the turn there, I can call all rivers, as villain may decide to turn his Jx or missed gutshot or Q9 into a bluff. Makes the same # of bets as betting turn and checking river behind, while doesn't open you to the possibility of a turn c/r or even a villain who c/c turn and donks river.
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You realise we have a set there right and at LHE people never fold?I feel you are basically assigning NL ranges here to villains who only have to call one or two bets to see a cheap showdown. In NL we can check the turn for value and then bet more on the river or raise or w/e, given a turn bet always = a river bet here it's not like we're gainig value or significantly widening villains range here.

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Raise turn or river?PokerStars Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (3 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comPreflop: Hero is Button with 8heart.gif, 8club.gifHero raises, SB calls, 1 foldFlop: (5 SB) 2diamond.gif, 5spade.gif, Jclub.gif(2 players)SB bets, Hero raises, SB callsTurn: (4.5 BB) Jspade.gif(2 players)SB bets, Hero callsRiver: (6.5 BB) Jdiamond.gif(2 players)SB bets, Hero callsTotal pot: $4.25 (8.5 BB) | Rake: $0.20

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I usually dont raise this turn b/c there are no draws on this flop, so villains might take this line oop with a J to try and "not scare you" by 3betting flop or c/r turn. To the river though, if he has the case J good for him, I'm raise/calling. (Caveat: raise/folding against passive villains, at least at mid stakes)

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  • 1 month later...

I f'ing hate variance - FT 2/4Preflop: Hero is Button with :3h, :adUTG raises, 2 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG caps!, Hero calls, BB callsFlop: (13 SB) :4h:5c:jh (3 players)UTG bets, Hero raises, 1 fold, UTG raises, Hero caps!Turn: (10.5 BB) :ts (2 players)UTG bets, Hero raises, UTG raises, Hero caps!River: (18.5 BB) :D (2 players)UTG bets, Hero raises, UTG raises, Hero caps!Villain showed :club::qh

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Raise turn or river?PokerStars Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (3 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comPreflop: Hero is Button with 8heart.gif, 8club.gifHero raises, SB calls, 1 foldFlop: (5 SB) 2diamond.gif, 5spade.gif, Jclub.gif(2 players)SB bets, Hero raises, SB callsTurn: (4.5 BB) Jspade.gif(2 players)SB bets, Hero callsRiver: (6.5 BB) Jdiamond.gif(2 players)SB bets, Hero callsTotal pot: $4.25 (8.5 BB) | Rake: $0.20
I usually dont raise this turn b/c there are no draws on this flop, so villains might take this line oop with a J to try and "not scare you" by 3betting flop or c/r turn. To the river though, if he has the case J good for him, I'm raise/calling. (Caveat: raise/folding against passive villains, at least at mid stakes)
Villian has a J here 0% of the time imo.When a villian donk/calls the flop then donks the turn on a boad with no draws, it's always the weakest hand ever. I'd raise turn and bet the river unless he donks the river, in which case I'd raise him again. He'd show me 5x here like 95% of the time imo.
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