Lhe Challenge(?) Thread

[MaxStPolish 4]

A hobby that makes money is a great thing.

QFT. Granted I'd love to be one of these NL kiddies on here making huge tourney scores and making a living of it.....but when push comes to shove there's a certain something to be said about a 9-5 you enjoy and great benefits that come with it.I think in a perfect world at 19 you are either working an interim job as well as pokering, or looking into school or a trade, etc. Definitely take a step back and think about what you want to do with life. You are sooooo young. I would think your optimal play in this "hand of life" would definitely be a pokering supplement at best to a career move of some kind. But you never know, whatever works best for you man!!!Best of luck!

[DinkDonk 1]

I don't have too much to add; Checky and Bob kind of carpet bombed all facets of your question quite well.I will say this though: Don't worry too much about what you could potentially be making at a certain level. Or how many hours you should put in per week, or any of that. Just focus on improving your overall game and the results will come. If you improve to a point where you can happily make a comfortable living, you will have enough data and experience to where you will know whether you should go pro or not. Until then, work your ass off and get better at the game than all the other guys who are day-dreaming about going pro.

[checkymcfold 0]

I will say this though: Don't worry too much about what you could potentially be making at a certain level. Or how many hours you should put in per week, or any of that. Just focus on improving your overall game and the results will come. If you improve to a point where you can happily make a comfortable living, you will have enough data and experience to where you will know whether you should go pro or not. Until then, work your ass off and get better at the game than all the other guys who are day-dreaming about going pro.

this is worth commenting on as well, i think, with regard to my previous post.it is a HUGE mental adjustment to go from thinking of poker winnings as a neato sort of side benefit to requiring them in order to pay your bills. like, HUGE. and unless you're amazingly stoic in your approach to finances, poker-related or otherwise, your play is simply going to suffer as a result of trying to make that sort of move prematurely. personally speaking, i never had to quit a game because i felt like i might tilt until i was in the situation where i really needed to log x hands at y winrate in order to withdraw for the month and not have to move down in stakes, etc., but the first time that happened was the first time i began having to quit because i wasn't playing my best. contrasting that with now, when i have a job and don't have to really give a shit about winning, i'm playing better with less stress, and since a little spell of run bad ended, i'm utterly annihilating games that i was merely beating before. and more importantly, i'm actually having fun again. that last point can't be overstated.

[Flushgarden 0]

I just wrote a long post but then I realized that most of it has already been said, and by people that can say it better than me. My story is pretty similar to Checky's, at least during the last year. Just listen to Checky. The guy is extremely wise. Just one thing though; have you thought about continuing your education? You said you're 19, right? I'm sure you can get a job, but getting a low paying job is different than having a career to fall back on. You don't want to wake up in a few years and realize that poker isn't fulfilling your needs either financially or for some other reason, and then at the same time also realize that you have no education and no real job or life experience.Checky has a whole lot of life experience packed into his young existence. He will be very successful with or without poker. I'd like think maybe I could say the same about myself. I know I plan to use the money I make from poker in the next few years to build on some of the things I did (and some of the ideas I had) prior to playing poker for a living, so that eventually I don't have to rely on poker as my primary source of income.I guess I'm just trying to say that no matter how well you do in poker, it's a grind, and you may realize that you need more. It's good to have options and it's good to have balance in your life....unless you become a sicko like Dink and make gobs of money. Then you can do whatever you want.

[DinkDonk 1]

It's funny. This thread has been dead for quite a while, but it still remains the best place to come with a question like Chris's.

[Chris-LFC 0]

thanks for your opinions and advice, this thread has always been my fav 1....kinda sad to see its dying out

[babylondonks 5]

I almost always try and dissuade people from turning pro.Being a semi-pro and making money at poker on the side if somebody is a winning player is a different thing and I encourage this. A hobby that makes money is a great thing.You're in the UK so I don't know if you are on some sort of unemployment insurance or government support. If you aren't I would suggest getting some sort of part time job if you can. Just playing poker, especially low limits can be a horrible grind and if you have some other modest income source it will really help you. Also, it will most likely help your poker game to have varied interests away from the poker table.My biggest suggestion to you would be to try and figure out what you would like to do with your life other than play poker. You're only 19 and for the vast majority of people they will be much better off in a traditional job or career than grinding poker. Take some courses, get some vocational training and find a good trade that you like. If you are going to have poker as a major source of income then you have to treat it seriously. Your bankroll is like a mechanic's tools. You have to be careful with your spending when you're running well. Never assume that flow of money will continue. But don't be afraid to take some limited shots at the limits that are just above the one that you're currently playing. If you can get into slightly higher limits and out of the low limit rake trap that can be huge.Good Luck

this is kind of what i've been doing for the last couple years, and the short way of responding is that it's really, really not fun. i wasn't playing LHE exclusively (except when i had a special arrangement with, ahem, a bad site ), and basically scouted games of all kinds on all sites to make sure that i had at least a 2-3BB/100 edge (or the plo equivalent) before sitting down. even then, it's a hell of a lot of work. granted, my lifestyle is fairly expensive, and my monthly expenses were closer to 3-4k than what you're looking at, but i had to play and scout games actively for over 60 hours a week really, really often. and if you're working that hard, even if you like poker, why not get a real job and take the pressure off? (hint: i did, and i'm a lot happier since i did )i should say, too, that playing poker full time without a really sizable financial cushion is beyond stressful if you can't really afford to have a bad month. like, to a ridiculous degree. if you enjoy what you're doing, i honestly wouldn't even consider changing your setup until you were playing at least 10/20, tbh. if you want to treat yourself to something, then by all means make a withdrawal on a whim, but if you're forcing yourself to take out 2k or something every month, even after you've had a 200BB downer at low stakes, that can really be mentally taxing, to say the least.add to that the potential ramping-up of withdrawal problems in the coming months, and i really wouldn't consider it until you had at least a few months of savings on top of a large bankroll.i don't mean to sound like a downer, but having done pretty much what you're looking to do over an extended period of time, i can say with pretty close to 100% certainty that it's not nearly as much fun as it sounds. there's simply a huge difference between viewing poker as recreation, even profitable recreation, and viewing it as a full time job. there are pluses and minuses to both, but i'd say that at anything below midstakes, it's really not worth considering the latter.also, bob's post is goot .

I don't have too much to add; Checky and Bob kind of carpet bombed all facets of your question quite well.I will say this though: Don't worry too much about what you could potentially be making at a certain level. Or how many hours you should put in per week, or any of that. Just focus on improving your overall game and the results will come. If you improve to a point where you can happily make a comfortable living, you will have enough data and experience to where you will know whether you should go pro or not. Until then, work your ass off and get better at the game than all the other guys who are day-dreaming about going pro.

this is worth commenting on as well, i think, with regard to my previous post.it is a HUGE mental adjustment to go from thinking of poker winnings as a neato sort of side benefit to requiring them in order to pay your bills. like, HUGE. and unless you're amazingly stoic in your approach to finances, poker-related or otherwise, your play is simply going to suffer as a result of trying to make that sort of move prematurely. personally speaking, i never had to quit a game because i felt like i might tilt until i was in the situation where i really needed to log x hands at y winrate in order to withdraw for the month and not have to move down in stakes, etc., but the first time that happened was the first time i began having to quit because i wasn't playing my best. contrasting that with now, when i have a job and don't have to really give a shit about winning, i'm playing better with less stress, and since a little spell of run bad ended, i'm utterly annihilating games that i was merely beating before. and more importantly, i'm actually having fun again. that last point can't be overstated.

I just wrote a long post but then I realized that most of it has already been said, and by people that can say it better than me. My story is pretty similar to Checky's, at least during the last year. Just listen to Checky. The guy is extremely wise. Just one thing though; have you thought about continuing your education? You said you're 19, right? I'm sure you can get a job, but getting a low paying job is different than having a career to fall back on. You don't want to wake up in a few years and realize that poker isn't fulfilling your needs either financially or for some other reason, and then at the same time also realize that you have no education and no real job or life experience.Checky has a whole lot of life experience packed into his young existence. He will be very successful with or without poker. I'd like think maybe I could say the same about myself. I know I plan to use the money I make from poker in the next few years to build on some of the things I did (and some of the ideas I had) prior to playing poker for a living, so that eventually I don't have to rely on poker as my primary source of income.I guess I'm just trying to say that no matter how well you do in poker, it's a grind, and you may realize that you need more. It's good to have options and it's good to have balance in your life....unless you become a sicko like Dink and make gobs of money. Then you can do whatever you want.

This is exactly what I would have wrote if I got here in time. I'm in a slightly different situation because I have all to gain and nothing to lose (aka gap years ftw) and I can bet unlimited amounts so I can win unlimited more!!!

[opie 0]

Daniel recently wrote in his blog:"There are subtle nuances to playing limit hold'em tournaments that even some of the great limit players in the world get wrong. One mistake in particular deals with being more concerned with concealing the strength of their hand than actually playing the hand the best way it can be played in a typical field with weaker opponents. I'll use K-Q suited as an example. That hand plays better against four players than it does against one lone pre-flop raiser. I often see successful online players specifically, misplay these types of hands in certain situations because they "always three bet," but that often leaves them heads up with say, A-J, instead of four ways with hands like Q-10, K-8 suited, and 4d 5d. This isn't going to turn into a limit hold'em lecture, but trust me, I'm definitely right about this one. "I have a few questions (if anyone is still reading this thread):- how do you play KQs preflop (call a raise or 3 bet)?- is this this just for tournamens, or would it apply in cash games too?- and why?Peace,Opie

[Chris-LFC 0]

Daniel recently wrote in his blog:"There are subtle nuances to playing limit hold'em tournaments that even some of the great limit players in the world get wrong. One mistake in particular deals with being more concerned with concealing the strength of their hand than actually playing the hand the best way it can be played in a typical field with weaker opponents. I'll use K-Q suited as an example. That hand plays better against four players than it does against one lone pre-flop raiser. I often see successful online players specifically, misplay these types of hands in certain situations because they "always three bet," but that often leaves them heads up with say, A-J, instead of four ways with hands like Q-10, K-8 suited, and 4d 5d. This isn't going to turn into a limit hold'em lecture, but trust me, I'm definitely right about this one. "I have a few questions (if anyone is still reading this thread):- how do you play KQs preflop (call a raise or 3 bet)?- is this this just for tournamens, or would it apply in cash games too?- and why?Peace,Opie

TBH it all depends on table dynamic and the player who opened the betting, you shouldn't get into the mindset of "oh i have KQ,do i 3 bet or just call". the 1st thing you need to know is if you should be playing the hand at all. anyway.... if im gunna be playing KQ and theres already been a raise before me,im usually 3 betting(this is for cash games btw),for a number of reasons, i want to isolate the origional raiser so that i can get the pot heads up and so that i am the aggressor in the hand,so that it gives me a better chance of taking the pot away from my opponent if i have the worst hand. i generally only call a raise from the BB with it though. and fold it from the SB from tight ish early position raisers.i wouldnt really be able to comment on what daniel is saying because i dont play that many LHE tournaments,i've played a few but its kind of a new world to me lol generally LHE tournaments online are super soft,honestly they are crazy!!!

[fighter 4]

I have a few questions (if anyone is still reading this thread):- how do you play KQs preflop (call a raise or 3 bet)?- is this this just for tournamens, or would it apply in cash games too?- and why?Peace,Opie

What you got to know whenever DN gives advice about overall poker theory, His game is built around his ability to read people. This may be the best way to play limit holdem tourneys, I mean he has the 3 limit holdem bracelets (IIRC), However this sounds alot like his small ball approach and it is built around picking off bluffs more then winning pots through being the aggressor.

[FCP Bob 1,320]

Daniel recently wrote in his blog:"There are subtle nuances to playing limit hold'em tournaments that even some of the great limit players in the world get wrong. One mistake in particular deals with being more concerned with concealing the strength of their hand than actually playing the hand the best way it can be played in a typical field with weaker opponents. I'll use K-Q suited as an example. That hand plays better against four players than it does against one lone pre-flop raiser. I often see successful online players specifically, misplay these types of hands in certain situations because they "always three bet," but that often leaves them heads up with say, A-J, instead of four ways with hands like Q-10, K-8 suited, and 4d 5d. This isn't going to turn into a limit hold'em lecture, but trust me, I'm definitely right about this one. "I have a few questions (if anyone is still reading this thread):- how do you play KQs preflop (call a raise or 3 bet)?- is this this just for tournamens, or would it apply in cash games too?- and why?Peace,Opie

Like Chris said a lot of it is player and table dependent. Keep in mind that Daniel is talking about full table live tournament not a short handed game.I played a live session of 10/20 full table at Port Perry a few weeks back for the first time in a long time and I had to make a lot of adjustments from online short handed games. A raise from some players meant they had a monster, from others it meant they felt like raising that time. 3 bets at any point unless it was from a maniac meant a monster. The open limp was more common than the open raise. In a game like this if an early position player raised and I had KQ sooooooted I would want to just call since there is a good chance I will get more calls behind me and the blinds will call and I want to play the hand with a lot of callers as opposed to heads up with the original raiser who has my hand crushed in most cases.I think any time that anybody says they always do something they are making a mistake. It may be usually correct but that type of thinking won't allow you to adjust to others.Just remember kids, the call button can be your friend too.

[No_Neck 0]

I played a live session of 10/20 full table at Port Perry

BUSTO????

[DinkDonk 1]

Results from June, Goals for July:

Limit hands:NL hands:+$930 in FPPs-$475 in staking=$37,435So I ran hot this month at all games that weren't 200/400. Had my second straight $30k+ month as well as my second straight $1000/hr. month which is pretty exciting. Despite my little downswing at the end of the month, I've never been more confident in my poker game. I didn't play in a single lineup all month where I didn't feel I had a significant edge, I never tilted, I made good quits, and took good shots. I'm happy with a lot of that, but I want to continue that type of improvement. Hopefully a few more good 100/200 and 200/400 games run so I can really have a big month in July, but if not, I'd be happy with just making sure I put in 15k hands at 15/30+ and working on my NL game a bit more (I spew like a ************.) So July goals: 15k hands of Limit and at least 2k hands of NL

[FCP Bob 1,320]

Results from June, Goals for July:

Congrats on all your success Mr Donk.I have a question for you. What are some of the general differences you see in the 100/200 games from let's say 15/30 which is a limit that you've crushed ?

[DinkDonk 1]

Congrats on all your success Mr Donk.I have a question for you. What are some of the general differences you see in the 100/200 games from let's say 15/30 which is a limit that you've crushed ?

Thanks, Bob.I'd say that in general it's the way the two games are built. 15/30 games run all day, every day and are filled with your normal mix of mediocre to very good regs, random fish, regular fish, unknowns, etc. They are games that will evolve of course and they obviously have their ebbs and flows, but they are pretty consistently the same games with different players.Big games like 100/200 or 200/400 on the other hand, rarely run for long periods of time. In fact they are almost always built around at least one player who is either unknown or known to be weak. Regulars rarely play just regulars and so when a game does run, it's usually completely centric around that particular "spot." The result of this common situation is that the dynamics of each 100/200 game are drastically different. I know that when a maniac sits down in a 10/20 or 15/30 game it changes the dynamic as well, but the difference is that in a 100/200 game, no one is auto-piloting so it takes much subtler mistakes by the fish to change the overall dynamic of the game via the other players. So what happens is that everyone is making adjustments in order to exploit the fish and then everyone makes adjustments to everyone else's adjustments. So for instance, if a reg is opening or 3-betting too lightly to isolate the fish, everyone else will 3-bet or cap him more lightly and so everyone at the table is affected.And so the main 2 differences I would say are:1. The personality/dynamic of a 100/200+ game is almost always dependent on the style of the "spot" in the game. All adjustments are first and foremost made around them.2. These adjustments and counter-adjustments are made much more quickly at the higher levels. Auto-piloting is suicide in those games because you will be missing non-standard plays vs. a fish who obviously deviates pretty far from optimal strategy. Not only that, but if you are lazy vs. the very good players, they will be much, much more capable of taking advantages of your mistakes than your standard decent 15/30 grinder.

[navybuttons 15]

I'd say that in general it's the way the two games are built.

great post.

[FCP Bob 1,320]

great post.

Agreed, his answer was the sort of insight I was hoping for.I think I know the answer to this based on your post Dink but I'll ask anyway.Is your HUD at all important to you when you're playing in a 100/200 or larger game. Based on your above answer I would think that it wouldn't be of much use since the regulars make so many adjustments based on the texture of the game.

[DinkDonk 1]

Well I sort of use it out of habit, but I do find some help in taking a quick look at the beginning of sessions. I just use it to give myself a quick reminder on any tendencies a player might have. Like if a guy is super showdown-bound or something I like to be well aware of it before I start making any adjustments. I find that people will rarely stray from some of their base tendencies (it's usually a leak). So if a guy is known for opening the button 60% of the time, he probably isn't going to instantly drop it to 40% (even if he should) just because someone is 3-betting him a ton from the SB.So I guess my basic answer is that it's much, much less useful especially in-game, but I think it would be pure laziness to not at least have my stats at hand.

[DinkDonk 1]

LHE:NLHE:-~$800 Staking+$900 Rakeback+$800 100k VPP Bonus=$41,205I have mixed feelings on the month. I won far fewer BBs than I would have liked, but I ran good at 200/400 over a decent number of hands and so the my green line finished in a good spot. I do feel that I played very well through all of my Limit hands, though, so that's a very important positive. I got very busy at the end of the month and so I wasn't able to get in the 15k hands I had hoped for, but the big games ran often and looked very good throughout the entire month. Hopefully that continues when I can play more (likely the end of August).As for NL, I've definitely improved in my very small amount of experience, but as you can see from the graph, I'm still a spewbot. As you can also see from the graphs, I run good at all games ever. Since that's obviously the case, I've decided that I don't have to work on playing better at all. I'll just run good forever instead.August Goals: I'm going to be extremely busy and traveling a lot throughout the first couple weeks of August, but once I get settled in after moving, I should be able to grind. Sooooo, ambitiously: 12k hands LHE, 2k hands NL, 1k hands other games.So what's new FCP LHE'ers?

[tuckermitchell 1]

LHE:

Before the likely "teach me" and "so sick" posts, I just would like to say one thing. You continue to amaze me sir. Congratulations. From every post of yours I've read, I would make the leap that you definitely deserve everything you've got.

[FCP Bob 1,320]

Lots of impressive stuff.

Running good and playing well at the highest limit you play is a great combination.I guess it's much harder to reach hand goals at the biggest limits since the games don't go as often and I assume that you are game selecting quite well.I'd be curious to know who you think are the toughest of the 100/200 and 200/400 players. If you don't want to say that's fine too. I won't be asking for you to publicly say who the players you want to play against are at those limits.Keep it up Dink

[FCP Bob 1,320]

Just wanted to post this so that the players who are playing micro stakes will see that there are pretty bad players at the mid limits as well plus it made me smile since there isn't a hand I could possibly fold to his river raise.PokerStars Limit Hold'em, $20.00 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comPreflop: Lucky Bob is SB with 10 , 10 UTG raises, 3 folds, Lucky Bob 3-bets, BB calls, UTG callsFlop: (9 SB) 6 , 6 , 5 (3 players)Lucky Bob bets, BB calls, UTG callsTurn: (6 BB) 2 (3 players)Lucky Bob bets, BB calls, UTG callsRiver: (9 BB) 5 (3 players)Lucky Bob bets, BB raises, 1 fold, Lucky Bob callsTotal pot: $260 (13 BB) | Rake: $3Results:Lucky Bob had 10 , 10 (two pair, tens and sixes).BB had J , 3 (two pair, sixes and fives).Outcome: Lucky Bob won $257

[antistuff 0]

Just wanted to post this so that the players who are playing micro stakes will see that there are pretty bad players at the mid limits as well plus it made me smile since there isn't a hand I could possibly fold to his river raise.PokerStars Limit Hold'em, $20.00 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comPreflop: Lucky Bob is SB with 10 , 10 UTG raises, 3 folds, Lucky Bob 3-bets, BB calls, UTG callsFlop: (9 SB) 6 , 6 , 5 (3 players)Lucky Bob bets, BB calls, UTG callsTurn: (6 BB) 2 (3 players)Lucky Bob bets, BB calls, UTG callsRiver: (9 BB) 5 (3 players)Lucky Bob bets, BB raises, 1 fold, Lucky Bob callsTotal pot: $260 (13 BB) | Rake: $3Results:Lucky Bob had 10 , 10 (two pair, tens and sixes).BB had J , 3 (two pair, sixes and fives).Outcome: Lucky Bob won $257

you never have like AK there and take a shot at value betting a weaker ace?or do you bet/call AK there?

[FCP Bob 1,320]

you never have like AK there and take a shot at value betting a weaker ace?or do you bet/call AK there?

With the board being double paired I'm chopping with any other ace. Most of the time if I have AK I'm probably going to check call the river rather than bet since I'm probably not going to get called by a K but a K or 44 might try and bluff me and something like 77 might check the river on occasion and I don't want to pay 2 bets to a hand that beats me. If I bet this river unless I'm bluffing with less than A hi I'm calling any raise unless I know that a player never bluffs me.You really don't want to have the reputation as being the guy who knows how to make good folds.

[Dirtydutch 8]

you never have like AK there and take a shot at value betting a weaker ace?or do you bet/call AK there?

I would think it's a pretty easy b/c with an A. I mean, it's not good that often, but there's like nothing in his range that beats us. Well, rather, there is nothing in his range. And the pot is big.