Lhe Challenge(?) Thread

[Whatever 1]

i'm not sure this is such a good idea. if you start out playing and losing you should probably just go do something else. but if you start winning you should feel glued to the game.

Yea my problem is that I have 2 five hour windows during the week to play and that's about it. I can/should cut those losing sessions short and play a full 5 hours when I'm running good though. PokerStars changing up the VIP levels helps take the pressure off of trying to get in 20k hands a month.

[Voldemort 0]

Page 2....wow.

[FCP Bob 1,321]

Bob's feel good hand of the day.I had quite a few feel good hands today all of them involving this same player who played 66/35/2.5 and could not be bluffed and would pay off with anything.PokerStars Limit Hold'em, $20.00 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comPreflop: Bob is SB with J , K 3 folds, Button raises, Bob 3-bets, 1 fold, Button caps, Bob callsFlop: (9 SB) 3 , 7 , 2 (2 players)Bob bets, Button raises, Bob callsTurn: (6.5 BB) 9 (2 players)Bob checks, Button bets, Bob raises, Button 3-bets, Bob caps, Button callsRiver: (14.5 BB) A (2 players)Bob bets, Button raises, Bob 3-bets, Button caps, Bob callsTotal pot: $450 (22.5 BB) | Rake: $3Results:Button had Q , 7 (flush, Ace high).Bob had J , K (flush, Ace high).Outcome: Bob won $447

[Flushgarden 0]

Bob's feel good hand of the day.I had quite a few feel good hands today all of them involving this same player who played 66/35/2.5 and could not be bluffed and would pay off with anything.PokerStars Limit Hold'em, $20.00 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comPreflop: Bob is SB with J , K 3 folds, Button raises, Bob 3-bets, 1 fold, Button caps, Bob callsFlop: (9 SB) 3 , 7 , 2 (2 players)Bob bets, Button raises, Bob callsTurn: (6.5 BB) 9 (2 players)Bob checks, Button bets, Bob raises, Button 3-bets, Bob caps, Button callsRiver: (14.5 BB) A (2 players)Bob bets, Button raises, Bob 3-bets, Button caps, Bob callsTotal pot: $450 (22.5 BB) | Rake: $3Results:Button had Q , 7 (flush, Ace high).Bob had J , K (flush, Ace high).Outcome: Bob won $447

mbn

[GWCGWC 83]

Bob's feel good hand of the day.I had quite a few feel good hands today all of them involving this same player who played 66/35/2.5 and could not be bluffed and would pay off with anything.Total pot: $450 (22.5 BB) | Rake: $3Results:Button had Q , 7 (flush, Ace high).Bob had J , K (flush, Ace high).Outcome: Bob won $447

ni han saa!

[FCP Bob 1,321]

I will be playing at around 9 PM Eastern time tonight after I get home from my tennis match.I find Sundays have the softest games of the week. My theory is that the players who have busted from the Sunday tourneys like to play some cash games and that's always a good thing.

[GWCGWC 83]

and I may stalk you a bit

[GWCGWC 83]

I railed table Sophrosyne V for about 20 min before I started a session. Dismantling that cracker dude was pretty sweet and railing had a strange calming effect for my spewiitiss. I started a session last week after stalking Dink which had the same effect but in a totally different way. I kept the table open and you're good Bob, like really really good.EDIT: JINX REMOVER; What I mean to say is that Bob really sucks at poker and is a HUGE fish in the game. I didn't rail and it didn't have a calming effect allowing me to play with more control.

[FCP Bob 1,321]

I railed table Sophrosyne V for about 20 min before I started a session. Dismantling that cracker dude was pretty sweet and railing had a strange calming effect for my spewiitiss. I started a session last week after stalking Dink which had the same effect but in a totally different way. I kept the table open and you're good Bob, like really really good.EDIT: JINX REMOVER; What I mean to say is that Bob really sucks at poker and is a HUGE fish in the game. I didn't rail and it didn't have a calming effect allowing me to play with more control.

Pretty uneventful session, I played 281 hands for a 9 Big Bet win. While I played I was watching the Hitchcock movie North By Northwest with Cary Grant.I like playing with that cracker dude.You may have mistaken my lack of doing anything totally retarded for being good.

[FCP Bob 1,321]

So let's talk about a hand I played in the big blind.Let's ignore everything other than the decision that I had to just call the raise or to 3 bet it preflop with my JJ.What do you think are the reasons to just call the raise and what do you think are good reasons to 3-bet it in this situation against one opponent ?Let's assume that we have very little information on our opponent and he hasn't done anything out of the ordinary or too strange while we've been playing together.PokerStars Limit Hold'em, $20.00 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comPreflop: Bob is BB with J , J 3 folds, Button raises, 1 fold, Bob callsFlop: (4.5 SB) 9 , 2 , 3 (2 players)Bob checks, Button bets, Bob raises, Button callsTurn: (4.25 BB) 10 (2 players)Bob bets, Button callsRiver: (6.25 BB) 7 (2 players)Bob bets, Button callsTotal pot: $165 (8.25 BB) | Rake: $3Results:Button mucked 4 , A (high card, Ace).Bob had J , J (one pair, Jacks).Outcome: Bob won $162

[Dirtydutch 8]

So let's talk about a hand I played in the big blind.Let's ignore everything other than the decision that I had to just call the raise or to 3 bet it preflop with my JJ.What do you think are the reasons to just call the raise and what do you think are good reasons to 3-bet it in this situation against one opponent ?Let's assume that we have very little information on our opponent and he hasn't done anything out of the ordinary or too strange while we've been playing together.PokerStars Limit Hold'em, $20.00 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comPreflop: Bob is BB with J , J 3 folds, Button raises, 1 fold, Bob callsFlop: (4.5 SB) 9 , 2 , 3 (2 players)Bob checks, Button bets, Bob raises, Button callsTurn: (4.25 BB) 10 (2 players)Bob bets, Button callsRiver: (6.25 BB) 7 (2 players)Bob bets, Button callsTotal pot: $165 (8.25 BB) | Rake: $3Results:Button mucked 4 , A (high card, Ace).Bob had J , J (one pair, Jacks).Outcome: Bob won $162

I know KPR for a while at least was never 3ing the BB for balance, and obviously you can c/r any flop for the same # of bets. I think it's a good default at this level for those reasons.

[GWCGWC 83]

So let's talk about a hand I played in the big blind.Let's ignore everything other than the decision that I had to just call the raise or to 3 bet it preflop with my JJ.What do you think are the reasons to just call the raise and what do you think are good reasons to 3-bet it in this situation against one opponent ?Let's assume that we have very little information on our opponent and he hasn't done anything out of the ordinary or too strange while we've been playing together.PokerStars Limit Hold'em, $20.00 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comPreflop: Bob is BB with J , J 3 folds, Button raises, 1 fold, Bob callsFlop: (4.5 SB) 9 , 2 , 3 (2 players)Bob checks, Button bets, Bob raises, Button callsTurn: (4.25 BB) 10 (2 players)Bob bets, Button callsRiver: (6.25 BB) 7 (2 players)Bob bets, Button callsTotal pot: $165 (8.25 BB) | Rake: $3Results:Button mucked 4 , A (high card, Ace).Bob had J , J (one pair, Jacks).Outcome: Bob won $162

Just speaking p/f. You defend most hands in the blind vs a button open and you never 3bet. You balance your defending range by doing the same thing AA or 86os.........whatever the hand value. This allows you to c/r flops and turns when you hit or the board texture is favorable to taking him off a hand. I may be wrong, but this should also help to minimize variance. Personally, I 3bet for shear value. The problem is that now I have the betting lead and will be taken off my hand occasionally. It also weights my hand into a discernible range for thinking players. I think I have what you and checky call 4-itus.edit: what Dutch said using fewer words and much more succinctly.

[DinkDonk 1]

I know KPR for a while at least was never 3ing the BB for balance, and obviously you can c/r any flop for the same # of bets. I think it's a good default at this level for those reasons.

I think that this sort of thing is entirely dependent on your overall style from the BB. And your overall style should be determined by what is most profitable with the current players. So if I'm at a table that will play poorly (usually fit or fold, but sometimes super spewy) if I 3-bet a ton of hands vs. steal raises, I do so. And when I say a ton of hands I mean a lot. Like suited connectors, broadways, pairs, decent Ax's and sometimes even wider. But if I'm at a tough table where opponents will utilize their position well and make my life hell, I will 3-bet nothing from the BB. In this spot in a vacuum, it's villain and image dependent. Sometimes simply calling will get you paid off lightly and cause players to go nuts and sometimes the player will cap anything to a 3-bet and allow you to c/r anyway. For these spots you really need to consider a lot of factors, but one that is under-examined is the post-flop ramifications to our preflop actions and I think that this is what Bob is trying to get us to consider here.

[BigDMcGee 3,355]

checky sucks at fantasy baseball drafting, fwiw.

[CobaltBlue 662]

I take Bob's line 95% of the time...when I was ya know...playing LHE.

[DinkDonk 1]

So I realize I haven't been contributing much lately. It's hard to keep up with 2 forums while owning 0 working computers. But here is a post I made on the... uh... *secret* forum about bet/folding. There was more to the discussion, but I wouldn't post anything anyone else posted without their permission. I'm not sure how many people in here don't read the other forum, but if you'd like me to keep x-posting things like this, just say so and I'd be happy to. If not, tell me I'm a self-involved, ego filled, narcissist and I'll keep my posting to wherever the discussion takes place. The reason that you b/f more at lower stakes is because you'll find players there with completely unbalanced, unmerged ranges so you can narrow their hand down to pure monsters when it goes b/r on the river a lot. They just aren't going to be playing in a manner that gives them a reasonable bluffing frequency for that situation and you'll hardly ever find someone at low stakes who will balance by waiting to raise the river with less than the nuts. For the same reasons, you can c/c a lot vs. the bad aggro players because their bluff frequencies will be ridic high when shown weakness (river check, in this case). At the higher stakes, you'll have to c/c a lot more than b/f because all of the mistakes people make will be on the aggressive side and usually more balanced when it comes to river raises. So it behooves you to take lines that will safely get you to showdown a lot of the time. I don't mean to say that b/f isn't a viable option in those games, though, you'll just use them in a different way and usually it's done to exploit regs who will call too much when bet into, but will play pretty perfectly when checked to. So essentially you use them more to prevent your opponents from handreading as well as to balance your range by merging in super thin 3 barrels (which have value in a bet, but have to fold to a river raise) instead of exploiting major imbalances as you would at lower stakes.

[FCP Bob 1,321]

I think that this sort of thing is entirely dependent on your overall style from the BB. And your overall style should be determined by what is most profitable with the current players. So if I'm at a table that will play poorly (usually fit or fold, but sometimes super spewy) if I 3-bet a ton of hands vs. steal raises, I do so. And when I say a ton of hands I mean a lot. Like suited connectors, broadways, pairs, decent Ax's and sometimes even wider. But if I'm at a tough table where opponents will utilize their position well and make my life hell, I will 3-bet nothing from the BB. In this spot in a vacuum, it's villain and image dependent. Sometimes simply calling will get you paid off lightly and cause players to go nuts and sometimes the player will cap anything to a 3-bet and allow you to c/r anyway. For these spots you really need to consider a lot of factors, but one that is under-examined is the post-flop ramifications to our preflop actions and I think that this is what Bob is trying to get us to consider here.

This is a great response.Like Dink says everything you do should should be a function of your complete game and your opponents.For example if I'm playing against a player who likes to 3 bet a wide range out of his big or the type of player who will check raise the flop out of his big if he has any piece of the flop or draw I'm going to factor that into the range of hands that I'll raise his big blind with.I find that it's so much easier to play after the flop when I just call a hand like JJ out of the big plus before I'm going to commit too many chips and too much information to my opponent out of position I like to see the flop and use that information. Let's say your opponent has raised from the cutoff with 9 10 and the flop comes A 7 8 with 2 of a suit. I'll probably just check call, check call, check call and a lot of players are going to fire on all 3 streets when they miss since they can't win a showdown with their 10 high. Sure I might be missing some value if the player checks the turn and gives up on the river but I'm also minimizing my losses if I'm beat. Now, if my opponent is an over aggressive cannon who doesn't seem to pay attention of his opponents I'm going to 3 bet and allow him to overplay his hands and if he ends up beating me so be it.

[FCP Bob 1,321]

The reason that you b/f more at lower stakes is because you'll find players there with completely unbalanced, unmerged ranges so you can narrow their hand down to pure monsters when it goes b/r on the river a lot. They just aren't going to be playing in a manner that gives them a reasonable bluffing frequency for that situation and you'll hardly ever find someone at low stakes who will balance by waiting to raise the river with less than the nuts. For the same reasons, you can c/c a lot vs. the bad aggro players because their bluff frequencies will be ridic high when shown weakness (river check, in this case). At the higher stakes, you'll have to c/c a lot more than b/f because all of the mistakes people make will be on the aggressive side and usually more balanced when it comes to river raises. So it behooves you to take lines that will safely get you to showdown a lot of the time. I don't mean to say that b/f isn't a viable option in those games, though, you'll just use them in a different way and usually it's done to exploit regs who will call too much when bet into, but will play pretty perfectly when checked to. So essentially you use them more to prevent your opponents from handreading as well as to balance your range by merging in super thin 3 barrels (which have value in a bet, but have to fold to a river raise) instead of exploiting major imbalances as you would at lower stakes.

One thing to be careful of with bet - folding against bad players whether it's at lower limits or middle limits is that very often it seems that the player who is a calling station and doesn't raise a lot of his big hands will all of a sudden make some kind of crazy raise that is a pure bluff that has no chance to work but they try it anyway. I've had hands before where I bet the river with top pair top kicker against 2 opponents and that calling station who never bluffs raises with his busted straight draw, the other bad player in the hand calls 2 bets with his top pair bad kicker and I'll fold since the calling station hasn't raised with anything other than the nuts before.In general I probably don't value bet the river as often as I should but I partially make up for it with induced bluffs and saved bets when a player who has me beat will also check on a hand that I would have paid them off since they remember where I checked before with a pretty big hand.

[DinkDonk 1]

One thing to be careful of with bet - folding against bad players whether it's at lower limits or middle limits is that very often it seems that the player who is a calling station and doesn't raise a lot of his big hands will all of a sudden make some kind of crazy raise that is a pure bluff that has no chance to work but they try it anyway. I've had hands before where I bet the river with top pair top kicker against 2 opponents and that calling station who never bluffs raises with his busted straight draw, the other bad player in the hand calls 2 bets with his top pair bad kicker and I'll fold since the calling station hasn't raised with anything other than the nuts before.In general I probably don't value bet the river as often as I should but I partially make up for it with induced bluffs and saved bets when a player who has me beat will also check on a hand that I would have paid them off since they remember where I checked before with a pretty big hand.

Absolutely. One of the main reasons we can profitably bet/fold vs. some players is predictability. So if a player isn't predictable, we should make it much less a part of our arsenal, and take more showdown bound, bluff-inducing lines, or, if they aren't quite predictable but clearly bluff with too high of a frequency, they are usually going to give us enough value to make our bet/call lines profitable. This type of stuff is why I'm not a huge fan of individual hand analysis in a vacuum. Everything you do is affected by your opponents, your image, your overall game, etc., so in general your hand strength really isn't that important if you have no idea how it's affected by the rest of the factors.

[GWCGWC 83]

^^^^^^^^posts people would pay money for.Dink, even though you'll always have insufficient info to comment on HH's, we all appreciate you're input on whatever you choose to share. Personally, I'm a slow learner and usually need to hear things more than once before any new information even begins to sink in. Everyone who post strat should know that it's greatly appreciated. Here's a nice run good hand of the day:This p/f action makes the table look like a gold mine but this was not how the table was playing. I 3bet expecting to get HU with UTG. He seemed to give up on the turn when shown aggression. My image at the table should have been pretty tight, 20/16/2 over 60 hands. PokerStars Limit Hold'em, $4.00 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comPreflop: Hero is CO with J , K UTG raises, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls, UTG caps, Hero calls, Button calls, SB calls, BB callshmmpfff, like I said it was unexpected. I'm thinking there are a lot of PP's and some broadway combos that have my hand in bad shape. I'm not really sure with that many players taking so many bets to the face. UTG capping in this spot doesn't exactly say premium PP, but it sways a little closer to that end of his range. Flop: (20 SB) 8 , J , 5 (5 players)SB checks, BB checks, UTG bets, Hero raises, 1 fold, SB calls, 1 fold, UTG callsI don't hate my hand but kind of hate my hand. I raise to make it more difficult for the players behind me to continue and hope to define UTG's hand more clearly. It's also possible that I have the best hand and get value from J10, QJ, 89, 79, AK, PP's...etc. This helping to define UTG's hand is completely flawed thinking since he's the type of player that will slow down to aggression but certainly isn't going to fold an overpair. Turn: (13 BB) 3 (3 players)SB bets, UTG calls, Hero callsThe club is fine and the 3 doesn't complete any weird str8's. Basically, I may have more outs if I was behind. SB's donk was weird and I'm soooooo happy UTG didn't raise. I'm asking myself if I can fold the river to a blank. River: (16 BB) 6 (3 players)SB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, SB calls, 1 foldI'm sure I heard both players curse this card through the interweb. The SB must not have heard me squeal since he called the river. Total pot: $72 (18 BB) | Rake: $3Results:SB mucked 3 , 3 (three of a kind, threes).Hero had J , K (flush, King high).Outcome: Hero won $69

[DinkDonk 1]

Postflop looks perfect, but preflop is suuuuper close and is in general a fold for me. I do like that you had a read that he'd give up on a ton of turns, though. What'd you have for a stat read on UTG? (Positional UTG vpip if you've got it, regular vpip, pfr, wtsd, w$sd)And I do still give singular hand advice quite a bit even if I think it's less helpful than it used to be. People still need to learn standard lines. I think I'm probably one of the top 5 most active posters in the limit strat forums now, actually. I just think that people overdo it a bit with that type of learning and could drastically improve their game in other areas with the inefficient time they spend in those areas.

[GWCGWC 83]

He was 32/16/1.2, wtsd-40, w$sd-50The read was more from watching his play. I'm 2 tabling, taking notes and trying very hard to play in a controlled manner. This 3bet is not standard for me but was table and player specific. PT2/PAHUD doesn't give positional pfr information. After watching some vids I've concluded HEM is far superior. My HUD stat layout from PT2/PAHUD:VPIP..............................................PFRTotal aggression Post flop.............Attemt to steal blinds......WTSDAggression Frequency Total..........Fold SB to steal...............Won $ at SDTotal hands played.......................Fold BB to stealI'd be curious as to what layout everyone else uses.

[DinkDonk 1]

Meh. I probably fold preflop, but it's a pretty small mistake at worst, so long as you play well postflop. And you did here.And I have been tracker/HUD-less for like 2 months and probably playing the best I ever have. I'll get HEM with my new setups though and I'll probably look for advice on a layout.

[GWCGWC 83]

Meh. I probably fold preflop, but it's a pretty small mistake at worst, so long as you play well postflop. And you did here.And I have been tracker/HUD-less for like 2 months and probably playing the best I ever have. I'll get HEM with my new setups though and I'll probably look for advice on a layout.

I've been opening less p/f and folding more on every street than I have in the past. That coupled with running good have me enjoying some success so far this month. I'd love to get to the point where stats don't factor into my decision making process. At my level, there are a ton of players table hopping and not a lot of regulars. I give more credence to any notes I have on a player. Notes seem to be more situation appropriate. Then again, people play differently on different days so reads constantly change. I'm slowly learning to crawl.

[GWCGWC 83]

3betting KJos is pretty much the opposite of what I mean when I say I'm trying to play under control.