Lhe Challenge(?) Thread

[HighwayStar 8]

There's a 100/0 over 20 with $316 on one of my tables1 time stay?

[FCP Bob 1,312]

Been playing some 10/20 at Stars this week and I'm liking playing against a lot of the regulars.I'm posting this hand since I think I played it a bit differently than some others would and I want to see what others think my reasoning is.PokerStars Limit Hold'em, $20.00 BB (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comPreflop: Me is SB with K , A marchinvest2 raises, docop calls, vinnybstgk 3-bets, Me calls, 1 fold, marchinvest2 calls, docop callsFlop: (13 SB) A , 5 , 10 (4 players)Me bets, marchinvest2 calls, docop raises, 1 fold, Me 3-bets, 1 fold, docop callsTurn: (10 BB) 3 (2 players)Me bets, docop callsRiver: (12 BB) 2 (2 players)Me bets, docop callsTotal pot: $280 (14 BB) | Rake: $2Results:Me had K , A (one pair, Aces).docop mucked A , Q (one pair, Aces).Outcome: Me won $278

[Flushgarden 0]

Been playing some 10/20 at Stars this week and I'm liking playing against a lot of the regulars.I'm posting this hand since I think I played it a bit differently than some others would and I want to see what others think my reasoning is.PokerStars Limit Hold'em, $20.00 BB (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comPreflop: Me is SB with K , A marchinvest2 raises, docop calls, vinnybstgk 3-bets, Me calls, 1 fold, marchinvest2 calls, docop callsFlop: (13 SB) A , 5 , 10 (4 players)Me bets, marchinvest2 calls, docop raises, 1 fold, Me 3-bets, 1 fold, docop callsTurn: (10 BB) 3 (2 players)Me bets, docop callsRiver: (12 BB) 2 (2 players)Me bets, docop callsTotal pot: $280 (14 BB) | Rake: $2Results:Me had K , A (one pair, Aces).docop mucked A , Q (one pair, Aces).Outcome: Me won $278

I dont know if I can put it into precise words but I love that vs regs at that level.

[mhoward29 0]

Been playing some 10/20 at Stars this week and I'm liking playing against a lot of the regulars.I'm posting this hand since I think I played it a bit differently than some others would and I want to see what others think my reasoning is.PokerStars Limit Hold'em, $20.00 BB (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comPreflop: Me is SB with K , A marchinvest2 raises, docop calls, vinnybstgk 3-bets, Me calls, 1 fold, marchinvest2 calls, docop callsFlop: (13 SB) A , 5 , 10 (4 players)Me bets, marchinvest2 calls, docop raises, 1 fold, Me 3-bets, 1 fold, docop callsTurn: (10 BB) 3 (2 players)Me bets, docop callsRiver: (12 BB) 2 (2 players)Me bets, docop callsTotal pot: $280 (14 BB) | Rake: $2Results:Me had K , A (one pair, Aces).docop mucked A , Q (one pair, Aces).Outcome: Me won $278

This is exactly how I play it. That's weird that you said it was different, now I feel different...

[Flushgarden 0]

This is exactly how I play it. That's weird that you said it was different, now I feel different...

Its definitely not conventional for online. Normally most people would cap AK there, and if for some reason you didnt have the lead preflop you normally wouldn't donkbet the flop.It'll definitely make people be a bit confused in regards to where he's at in future hands.

[mhoward29 0]

Its definitely not conventional for online.

ok this is where I want to learn from this thread. Why is this not conventional online? Should Bob have 4 bet pre? Cuz I usually never 4 bet AK pre, unless its just a wild game. But remember all my examples are live.However I did play 1hr of .25/.50 LHE full ring last night on FTP, +20BB with no real risk.

[mhoward29 0]

Its definitely not conventional for online. Normally most people would cap AK there, and if for some reason you didnt have the lead preflop you normally wouldn't donkbet the flop.It'll definitely make people be a bit confused in regards to where he's at in future hands.

ok you edited after I asked.So I "donkbet" the flop twice last night using the same line that Bob did. I flopped a set twice and led out. Once I got raised and I 3 bet since it was a pretty coordinated board and the 2nd time I smooth called, no draws at all on flop.

[Flushgarden 0]

ok you edited after I asked.So I "donkbet" the flop twice last night using the same line that Bob did. I flopped a set twice and led out. Once I got raised and I 3 bet since it was a pretty coordinated board and the 2nd time I smooth called, no draws at all on flop.

The person who had the lead preflop is going to c-bet pretty much 100% of the time and then you're going to have the opportunity to check-raise and get more money in the pot. Depending on your opponent, when you lead out he may just call, and in some cases just fold. Against some people who you know will fire twice or more with nothing you may want to even wait until the turn to check-raise.It sometimes can work out for you though because your opponent may read you as weak or put you on a draw and jam the flop with you. Often you can get the same result with a check raise though too. Its really all about knowing your opponents and the spots where they'll spew. People play a lot more aggressively online, and you're going to have to get used to that. I think its good that you're starting at that level. Everything will get more aggressive each level you move up.

[mhoward29 0]

The person who had the lead preflop is going to c-bet pretty much 100% of the time and then you're going to have the opportunity to check-raise and get more money in the pot. When you lead out he may just call, and in some cases just fold. Against some people who you know will fire twice or more with nothing you may want to even wait until the turn to check-raise.It also isn't bad sometimes though because on a coordinated board your opponent may read you as weak or put you on a draw and jam the flop with you. Often you can get the same result with a check raise though too. Its really all about knowing your opponents. People play a lot more aggressively online, and you're going to have to get used to that. I think its good that you're starting at that level. Everything will get even more aggressive each level you move up.

I love waiting until the BB rounds to get aggro also. Is this common online? I sometime hate jamming the flop with a big hand because I want them to stay with me when it gets expensive.

[DinkDonk 1]

I like the idea of balancing there by not capping PF Bob, but I think vs. these players- Vinny and MI2 who are very LAGgy regs and 1 player who I'll assume is bad (Docop?) we need to cap here. I think we're just giving way too much equity with a massive equity edge. I like the rest though, as played.

[DinkDonk 1]

I love waiting until the BB rounds to get aggro also. Is this common online? I sometime hate jamming the flop with a big hand because I want them to stay with me when it gets expensive.

I can certainly tell that you're used to nitty online games Online, waiting for the turn is done, but it's far less common. Since the games are much more aggressive and much more showdown bound, players won't fold as much on the flop or turn. Your flop raises won't get as much respect and you'll have to balance your semi-bluffs and pure bluffs with real hands. So basically, you can jam the flop and turn a lot more, because most players are maniacal and you can gain much more value on every street than you would from a live nit.

[mhoward29 0]

I can certainly tell that you're used to nitty online games Online, waiting for the turn is done, but it's far less common. Since the games are much more aggressive and much more showdown bound, players won't fold as much on the flop or turn. Your flop raises won't get as much respect and you'll have to balance your semi-bluffs and pure bluffs with real hands. So basically, you can jam the flop and turn a lot more, because most players are maniacal and you can gain much more value on every street than you would from a live nit.

Thanks thats good advice. Also Im not really used to any games online, be it nitty or aggro. So is AK usually always 4 bet pre online? Do you all usually 4bet AK pre?Edit: Also remember Im not playing 6-max, im playing full ring games. Can I also get people's thoughts on this? I feel that with a limited BR at such low limits there will be less risk to my BR playing 9 handed.

[DinkDonk 1]

Thanks thats good advice. Also Im not really used to any games online, be it nitty or aggro. So is AK usually always 4 bet pre online? Do you all usually 4bet AK pre?Edit: Also remember Im not playing 6-max, im playing full ring games. Can I also get people's thoughts on this? I feel that with a limited BR at such low limits there will be less risk to my BR playing 9 handed.

Well, I play 6 max and shorter so AK pretty much always has a massive equity edge in any raise/3bet situation, so it's standard for AK to be capped in nearly all situations. I'm not fully familiar with different standard ranges for certain sets of stats, so I'm not sure how AK fares vs. like UTG raisers and UTG+1 3 betters, but you can just run it through Pokerstove and see how you're doing vs. the ranges you assign. In general though, in today's aggressive games, capping AK in a 3 way pot is probably not going to be a very big mistake ever.

[mhoward29 0]

thanks again.Im looking forward to spending more time in this thread to learn more about LHE. I kinda wish that there were more HH posted tho and people like Bob would post more. But all in all it seems like a great place to learn the game of LHE online.

[DinkDonk 1]

thanks again.Im looking forward to spending more time in this thread to learn more about LHE. I kinda wish that there were more HH posted tho and people like Bob would post more. But all in all it seems like a great place to learn the game of LHE online.

We all wish Bob would post more (And stay out of my games. Grrrrrr)There are quite a few people in here who have very insightful things to say and multiple people who have been consistently successful for a long time. I don't post many HH because after a certain number of hands, everything seems pretty standard and the ones that don't are due to player reads and dynamics, but I'll try to post a few more of the less standard ones in the future.

[FCP Bob 1,312]

I like the idea of balancing there by not capping PF Bob, but I think vs. these players- Vinny and MI2 who are very LAGgy regs and 1 player who I'll assume is bad (Docop?) we need to cap here. I think we're just giving way too much equity with a massive equity edge. I like the rest though, as played.

The original raiser is very laggy and the cold caller is loose passive. The 3 better is a reg but I wouldn't classify him as laggy at all. Preflop he's tighter and raises less than I do which means that his 3 bet does have some meaning.I personally dislike capping AK off from the sb in multiway pots as the default play where I think at least one of the players has a pretty big hand since I know to win this pot I'm going to have to show down the best hand and I'm out of position. I also like disguising my hand and I can get additional information from the other players who are still to act after me by seeing if they are just calling or will cap themselves. I'm out of position and I hate having the flop come Q 9 8 and then just checking the flop and I hate betting that flop with AK. I think one of the most exploitable things I see from a lot of regs is putting in a lot of bets out of position and building big pots. I much prefer to have the big pots happen when I'm in position. I see a lot of regs do things like cap it out of the SB with KQ off after there has been an under the gun raise and a 3 bet from a fairly tight player and to me that can't be a good play.Another consideration is that with my often passive style of play when I cap it that narrows my hand down a lot and I love having that thought in players heads since it allows me to make moves at other times. Oh look, he didn't cap it with AK and he's getting aggresive now. Or, oh he flopped top pair and check called all the way down and he's now raising me.You can do hand range estimates and equity calculations but it's hard to quantify the negative of being out of position.

[FCP Bob 1,312]

We all wish Bob would post more (And stay out of my games. Grrrrrr)There are quite a few people in here who have very insightful things to say and multiple people who have been consistently successful for a long time. I don't post many HH because after a certain number of hands, everything seems pretty standard and the ones that don't are due to player reads and dynamics, but I'll try to post a few more of the less standard ones in the future.

Most hands are either standard or read dependent so I rarely post them but if I see a hand that I think can show something to others I'll try and post it.

[Dirtydutch 8]

I should clarify that donk-betting the flop, like any play, is fine if you have a reason, obviously, that makes it more profitable on average than c/ring. Maybe you know it will get check back or maybe you know he still raises a ton of his range or it will make him play a different way on latter streets, etc. You should constantly be thinking through what you think your opponent will do, being honest about the actual likelihood, and thinking about which lines show the greatest average return. Just because it seems like a c/r on that flop is always correct, and just because it's not really a mistake to play it that way, doesn't mean it doesn't cost you value some times when you get complacent and automatic.Edit: this was for Mhoward, and posted before I saw Bob's explanation.

[Dirtydutch 8]

The original raiser is very laggy and the cold caller is loose passive. The 3 better is a reg but I wouldn't classify him as laggy at all. Preflop he's tighter and raises less than I do which means that his 3 bet does have some meaning.I personally dislike capping AK off from the sb in multiway pots as the default play where I think at least one of the players has a pretty big hand since I know to win this pot I'm going to have to show down the best hand and I'm out of position. I also like disguising my hand and I can get additional information from the other players who are still to act after me by seeing if they are just calling or will cap themselves. I'm out of position and I hate having the flop come Q 9 8 and then just checking the flop and I hate betting that flop with AK. I think one of the most exploitable things I see from a lot of regs is putting in a lot of bets out of position and building big pots. I much prefer to have the big pots happen when I'm in position. I see a lot of regs do things like cap it out of the SB with KQ off after there has been an under the gun raise and a 3 bet from a fairly tight player and to me that can't be a good play.Another consideration is that with my often passive style of play when I cap it that narrows my hand down a lot and I love having that thought in players heads since it allows me to make moves at other times. Oh look, he didn't cap it with AK and he's getting aggresive now. Or, oh he flopped top pair and check called all the way down and he's now raising me.You can do hand range estimates and equity calculations but it's hard to quantify the negative of being out of position.

Really interesting post. Can you talk a bit more about your decision to donk out the flop?

[TheCinciKid 0]

Thanks thats good advice. Also Im not really used to any games online, be it nitty or aggro. So is AK usually always 4 bet pre online? Do you all usually 4bet AK pre?Edit: Also remember Im not playing 6-max, im playing full ring games. Can I also get people's thoughts on this? I feel that with a limited BR at such low limits there will be less risk to my BR playing 9 handed.

Thought I'd comment on this because I have some current experience in this arena. I think at the .25/.50 level, the ring games are probably the juiciest and would certainly have less bankroll risk. Honestly though, once you get to .5/1, the full-ring tables are pretty damn nitty most of the time. I don't really understand this, but it's the way it is. Since you're used to playing live, .25/.50 ring is probably the closest you're going to see to a standard live game.

[DinkDonk 1]

Bob- how many hands do you have on Vinny?I've got about 2k and have him as pretty aggro from EP and the blinds and a fairly high 3B%, despite not being very steal happy. Additionally, he plays as high as like 50/100 or 100/200 and is well known as a bit tilt-prone and a bit of a grudgeholder, so if there is history here with the other villains, it's more relevant than you might think. In general, I'd say he's an overly emotional and personal player. Also, his SD% is very high. Anyway, I agree that being out of position is a big factor, but I think our hand has monstrous equity vs. their collective ranges here and I think that that factor probably has enough weight to negate all of the other factors here.

[FCP Bob 1,312]

Really interesting post. Can you talk a bit more about your decision to donk out the flop?

It was a very drawy flop and I figured I could disguise my hand a bit by my initial bet and most likely have a chance to 3 bet it since somebody is going to raise me with that flop and I could trap some people and get some dead money in there.I could have just as easily tried to check raise but the problem with that is unless the 3 bettor has an Ace he is quite capable of checking that flop as he has the button and if somebody else has an ace they might be going for a check raise and the last thing I want to do on a flop like that is have the flop get checked around.

[FCP Bob 1,312]

Bob- how many hands do you have on Vinny?I've got about 2k and have him as pretty aggro from EP and the blinds and a fairly high 3B%, despite not being very steal happy. Additionally, he plays as high as like 50/100 or 100/200 and is well known as a bit tilt-prone and a bit of a grudgeholder, so if there is history here with the other villains, it's more relevant than you might think. In general, I'd say he's an overly emotional and personal player. Also, his SD% is very high. Anyway, I agree that being out of position is a big factor, but I think our hand has monstrous equity vs. their collective ranges here and I think that that factor probably has enough weight to negate all of the other factors here.

I have about 1400 hands with him and 500 of those are in the last week or so and he hasn't been on tilt in any of the games that I've played with him. He's won at a nice rate in games with me so that may explain that I haven't seem him tilt. In this session he was winning and playing pretty tight at 28/19/1.1

[Dirtydutch 8]

OK, that makes sense. In my games that flop gets checked through like never, and I guess I perceive the mid-limits as being more aggro, despite the fact that people at those levels are actually a bit more capable of a cagey check from time-to-time.

[Dirtydutch 8]

Dink, you running OK? You've been OOC w/r/t board presence for a few days, amid what seemed like a nasty downswing. You're not hitting the bottle too hard or anything, right?