Lhe Challenge(?) Thread

[adamkpm 0]

What hand is he raising on the river that you beat? 99 out of a 100 times, a river c/r in LHE, especially given the heavy previous action means that that player doesn't care if you have an overpair or TPTK. Basically in this case, he is putting you on QQ+, and doesn't care. Add to that that every draw has now hit, and there is not a single hand you are beating. Also, TBH, you probably should've flatted the flop and raised a non-heart turn.

Good to know and thank you for the indepth explanation.

[DinkDonk 1]

You need to fold the river.

I wouldn't fold the river. I think your 99/100 number is pretty contrived and could lead to a pretty big leak (not showing down enough.) We need to be good around 10% of the time and villain has tons of hands in his range that have no showdown value and can be turned into bluffs on the scariest river bluff card in the deck. Calling too often here is never a big mistake; folding too often there can be disastrous.

[SwolyswoND 1]

I don't think it is contrived at all. People don't start bluff check/raising rivers in LHE until you get up to like 5/10, and certainly not at the micro stakes. Also, remember that villain c/raised the flop. Now every conceivable draw has hit, and QQ beats literally nothing at this point. Also, villain can be positive Hero has a big hand based on the action PF and on the flop, and is raising anyway. I invite you again to tell me one hand Villain has in his range which plays this way, and that QQ is beating on the river. It's certainly not more than 1 out of 10 times. Trust me, if anything my SD % is too high, not too low. But I am not above laying down overpair or TPTK type hands to a river c/r. You need a SOLID read that someone is capable of c/ring the river with air before you call here. ESPECIALLY at the micros.

[Danege 1]

I don't think it is contrived at all. People don't start bluff check/raising rivers in LHE until you get up to like 5/10, and certainly not at the micro stakes. Also, remember that villain c/raised the flop. Now every conceivable draw has hit, and QQ beats literally nothing at this point. Also, villain can be positive Hero has a big hand based on the action PF and on the flop, and is raising anyway. I invite you again to tell me one hand Villain has in his range which plays this way, and that QQ is beating on the river. It's certainly not more than 1 out of 10 times. Trust me, if anything my SD % is too high, not too low. But I am not above laying down overpair or TPTK type hands to a river c/r. You need a SOLID read that someone is capable of c/ring the river with air before you call here. ESPECIALLY at the micros.

Dink plays in some of the highest limits around on the internet. His advice is spot on here.In this hand you have to be:Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, right for the play to be breakeaven. This is literally the scariest card in the deck for your range, and the fact that you know that makes this a great card to c/r as a bluff.

[DinkDonk 1]

I've played my share at the micros. I find that people have a lot more randomness in their ranges. My point was that villain has a large number of hands in his range that have no SD value and only has to bluff with these a small amount of time to make a fold really bad. Your number is contrived because you made it up, it's not based in past or anything meaningful, it's just some approximation you made. Which is fine, but you presented it in such a tone that Adam accepted it as fact. Which it's not.

[adamkpm 0]

I've played my share at the micros. I find that people have a lot more randomness in their ranges. My point was that villain has a large number of hands in his range that have no SD value and only has to bluff with these a small amount of time to make a fold really bad. Your number is contrived because you made it up, it's not based in past or anything meaningful, it's just some approximation you made. Which is fine, but you presented it in such a tone that Adam accepted it as fact. Which it's not.

Thanks for the +EV words of wisdom Dink. Also, after a long heated debate with KingJames we came to the conclusion that calling 1 bet and losing is way better then folding the entire pot with the best hand.(meh the red line) Throw in the fact we only need to be good 10% of the time to be profitable as stated in the previous post, and that I'm never folding. Maybe just c/c? Unrelated: I had the best home cooked rare steak for lunch. It was AMAZING! I even thought about how great it was while at work. I was bragging to my girlfriend how great of a rare steak I made and all was well until she told me it was pork. Now I'm going to die a losing player, sigh.

[fighter 4]

Thanks for the +EV words of wisdom Dink. Also, after a long heated debate with KingJames we came to the conclusion that calling 1 bet and losing is way better then folding the entire pot with the best hand.(meh the red line) Throw in the fact we only need to be good 10% of the time to be profitable as stated in the previous post, and that I'm never folding. Maybe just c/c? Unrelated: I had the best home cooked rare steak for lunch. It was AMAZING! I even thought about how great it was while at work. I was bragging to my girlfriend how great of a rare steak I made and all was well until she told me it was pork. Now I'm going to die a losing player, sigh.

no one has a positive red line in lhe and a positive green line.

[SwolyswoND 1]

Calling one bet and losing is only better than folding if we actually DO have the best hand 1 out of 10 times. I still say we will not. Unless I have a solid read that a player is a maniac, then a river c/r in LHE, especially given previous heavy action where the villain knows you likely have a big hand, then I am never ever ever calling a river c/r with one pair (or even two pair in this case given the board) when every draw has hit.I'll go through this again: you 3bet his UTG open PF, and then you 3bet his flop c/r. I know most villains dont think, but even a braindead villain can put you on an overpair/other big hand there. Since no one ever folds overpairs in LHE, I highly doubt that villain is going to c/r bluff the river more than 10% of the time. Most people do think the way the advice has been given ITT: villain will think Hero is always calling because it's better to lose one more bet than fold the best hand in a big pot. Therefore they won't bluff often because they expect you to call.Lastly, remember, villain raised UTG full ring, and got 3bet. 1) that puts Hero's range heavy weighted toward QQ+, AK. Now villain c/r a raggy flop. He has to know you are never folding, so this is typically going to be for value. Once Hero 3bets the flop c/r, you might as well hold up a sign that says (I have QQ+). Villain continues, so he either has a weaker overpair or a broadway heart draw, or is slowplaying a set. C/c the turn is standard with either line, then a river c/r. So now 2) you have to say that Villain turns 88/TT/JJ into a bluff here (knowing full well Hero has QQ+) 10% as often than he has hearts or a slowplayed set that filled up. I'm just not buying it.

[babylondonks 5]

cool

[CobaltBlue 662]

no one has a positive red line in lhe and a positive green line.

Not completely true...just extremely rare. I knew of a few instances of winning HULHE players that just poured on the aggression to get other players to fold. Trying to remember who though.

[Danege 1]

I'll go through this again: you 3bet his UTG open PF, and then you 3bet his flop c/r. I know most villains dont think, but even a braindead villain can put you on an overpair/other big hand there. Since no one ever folds overpairs in LHE, I highly doubt that villain is going to c/r bluff the river more than 10% of the time. Most people do think the way the advice has been given ITT: villain will think Hero is always calling because it's better to lose one more bet than fold the best hand in a big pot. Therefore they won't bluff often because they expect you to call.I'm just not buying it.

Evidently you do. Which makes it profitable to bluff here.

[DinkDonk 1]

I understand full well what you're saying, I just disagree on the ranges you've assigned.

[SwolyswoND 1]

Evidently you do. Which makes it profitable to bluff here.

I can when the situation is correct. This is one of them. And Villains will never know if I'm capable of it, so they have no reason to expect that I would. Therefore they won't try suicidal bluffs. DinkDonk, what ranges do you disagree with and what would you assign?

[DinkDonk 1]

I can when the situation is correct. This is one of them. And Villains will never know if I'm capable of it, so they have no reason to expect that I would. Therefore they won't try suicidal bluffs. DinkDonk, what ranges do you disagree with and what would you assign?

I just think you're assuming too high a level of predictability in incredibly unpredictable opponents. It's not the exact hand that I find interesting enough to range analyze, just the overriding principles.

[adamkpm 0]

Calling one bet and losing is only better than folding if we actually DO have the best hand 1 out of 10 times. I still say we will not. Unless I have a solid read that a player is a maniac, then a river c/r in LHE, especially given previous heavy action where the villain knows you likely have a big hand, then I am never ever ever calling a river c/r with one pair (or even two pair in this case given the board) when every draw has hit.I'll go through this again: you 3bet his UTG open PF, and then you 3bet his flop c/r. I know most villains dont think, but even a braindead villain can put you on an overpair/other big hand there. Since no one ever folds overpairs in LHE, I highly doubt that villain is going to c/r bluff the river more than 10% of the time. Most people do think the way the advice has been given ITT: villain will think Hero is always calling because it's better to lose one more bet than fold the best hand in a big pot. Therefore they won't bluff often because they expect you to call.Lastly, remember, villain raised UTG full ring, and got 3bet. 1) that puts Hero's range heavy weighted toward QQ+, AK. Now villain c/r a raggy flop. He has to know you are never folding, so this is typically going to be for value. Once Hero 3bets the flop c/r, you might as well hold up a sign that says (I have QQ+). Villain continues, so he either has a weaker overpair or a broadway heart draw, or is slowplaying a set. C/c the turn is standard with either line, then a river c/r. So now 2) you have to say that Villain turns 88/TT/JJ into a bluff here (knowing full well Hero has QQ+) 10% as often than he has hearts or a slowplayed set that filled up. I'm just not buying it

What exactly is your background in lhe?

[SwolyswoND 1]

Not sure exactly what you're asking, but if it's the stakes I play at, I most frequently play 2/4 or 3/6 6max. I play as low as 1/2 or as high as 8/16, given the table. I also play $11 and $22 SNGs of LHE, and the $24 MTTs. (or lower if they ever run). I'm a solid, albeit small-time, winner over the past 2 years or so - no expert by any means, but I have no problem saying that I know what I'm talking about.

[fighter 4]

We haven't had a LHE featured member since looshle in 2007.

[DinkDonk 1]

We haven't had a LHE featured member since looshle in 2007.

No traffic, sadly.