Lhe Challenge(?) Thread

[Dirtydutch 8]

With the board being double paired I'm chopping with any other ace. Most of the time if I have AK I'm probably going to check call the river rather than bet since I'm probably not going to get called by a K but a K or 44 might try and bluff me and something like 77 might check the river on occasion and I don't want to pay 2 bets to a hand that beats me. If I bet this river unless I'm bluffing with less than A hi I'm calling any raise unless I know that a player never bluffs me.You really don't want to have the reputation as being the guy who knows how to make good folds.

That too. Oops, thinking about it, your range is so A-high-y that K-high probably doesn't pay you.

[Dirtydutch 8]

Hey Bob, how common is this shit at 10/20? I mean, you post some stunningly thoughtless plays, but is this the kind of thing you see happening like 1 per 20 hands or what?

[FCP Bob 1,312]

Hey Bob, how common is this shit at 10/20? I mean, you post some stunningly thoughtless plays, but is this the kind of thing you see happening like 1 per 20 hands or what?

Not quite that often but it isn't uncommon at all to find players who will see most flops and play like a mouth breathing drunk at the end of a bender.This player had about $400 at the table when I sat down and was broke about 30 hands later.

[antistuff 0]

With the board being double paired I'm chopping with any other ace. Most of the time if I have AK I'm probably going to check call the river rather than bet since I'm probably not going to get called by a K but a K or 44 might try and bluff me and something like 77 might check the river on occasion and I don't want to pay 2 bets to a hand that beats me. If I bet this river unless I'm bluffing with less than A hi I'm calling any raise unless I know that a player never bluffs me.You really don't want to have the reputation as being the guy who knows how to make good folds.

doh i missed that the board was double paired. lets turn the five into an 8 or a 9 which are about the blankest cards here i think. what do you think of my questions in light of that change?

[FCP Bob 1,312]

doh i missed that the board was double paired. lets turn the five into an 8 or a 9 which are about the blankest cards here i think. what do you think of my questions in light of that change?

Sure, I'll often value bet with AK and hope to get called by a worse ace in that scenario. I'll also check the river sometimes hoping for somebody to bluff.

[Whatever 1]

How many hands do you get in per month Bob?

[FCP Bob 1,312]

How many hands do you get in per month Bob?

I don't really play that much, most months between 8k-12k hands.

[DinkDonk 1]

Running good and playing well at the highest limit you play is a great combination.I guess it's much harder to reach hand goals at the biggest limits since the games don't go as often and I assume that you are game selecting quite well.I'd be curious to know who you think are the toughest of the 100/200 and 200/400 players. If you don't want to say that's fine too. I won't be asking for you to publicly say who the players you want to play against are at those limits.Keep it up Dink

I'm definitely putting in more time scouting out games these days. It allows me to get in fewer hands, but I have really learned to make every hand count and play well if I'm going to play. My game selection has been good, but there really aren't many bad 1/2 or 2/4 games running these days. Unless the game is 2-3 handed, regs at the high levels seem less willing to play each other than they do at 30/60. So generally when a game is full it's for a pretty good reason, like 2 fish sitting down or something. The toughest players are actually the ones who are already pretty "internet-famous." Unlike a lot of live pros, guys like Hoss, Kpr, Otter, Zeigler, Stickman, Trypt, or Schneids really live up to their reputations. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that the guys who have been there the longest are generally the best, but it's odd for the general public to be so accurate with their perceptions.

[DinkDonk 1]

Ship.Poker Stars $50/$100 Limit Hold'em - 6 players - View hand 220945The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History ConverterPre Flop: (1.5 SB) Hero is UTG with 8 T Hero raises, 2 folds, BTN calls, SB calls, BB callsFlop: (8 SB) 4 7 Q (4 players)SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, BTN raises, SB folds, BB folds, Hero callsTurn: (6 BB) 4 (2 players)Hero checks, BTN bets, Hero raises, BTN callsRiver: (10 BB) K (2 players)Hero betsInteresting spot because we're relying entirely on the strength of our own perceived range and not at all on him having a non-made hand. Any thoughts?This is a hand that generated a little discussion elsewhere. I find it interesting and so I thought I'd share it here. I did leave the results off here, but it's more the thought processes involved than the hand itself that I'm interested in. If people give decent, well-thought-out responses, I'll gladly share my (very long) thoughts as well.

[FCP Bob 1,312]

Ship.Poker Stars $50/$100 Limit Hold'em - 6 players - View hand 220945The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History ConverterPre Flop: (1.5 SB) Hero is UTG with 8 T Hero raises, 2 folds, BTN calls, SB calls, BB callsFlop: (8 SB) 4 7 Q (4 players)SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, BTN raises, SB folds, BB folds, Hero callsTurn: (6 BB) 4 (2 players)Hero checks, BTN bets, Hero raises, BTN callsRiver: (10 BB) K (2 players)Hero betsInteresting spot because we're relying entirely on the strength of our own perceived range and not at all on him having a non-made hand. Any thoughts?This is a hand that generated a little discussion elsewhere. I find it interesting and so I thought I'd share it here. I did leave the results off here, but it's more the thought processes involved than the hand itself that I'm interested in. If people give decent, well-thought-out responses, I'll gladly share my (very long) thoughts as well.

I have to assume that you have some history with the button or this isn't a hand that you could play the way that you did.This hand is an example of higher level thinking that you can only try and play this way with a player who you know and who you have a good idea of how he perceives you.His range with his preflop button call should include a lot of hands with a Q in it and that is what he is representing here and he most likely has that. With this flop there are no draws at all so he either has a made hand or is representing a made hand. Your play on the turn is one that you would make with a big made hand that you don't care if he has a Q or not. There are no draws here at all so you either don't care that he has a Q or you have air and are trying to move him off a Q. It's also possible of course that he has a made hand worse than Q's and that would make it even more likely that he can let his hand go.The thing about limit holdem is that it's very hard to move anybody off of top pair but if this player is thoughtful enough it's possible. His thought process would be something like there is no draw so Dink must know I have a hand here but his check raise means he doesn't care so my QJ can't possibly be good here so I'm going to save a bet on the river and fold.If your play doesn't work it's something to put down to an image play and it will make it harder in the future for this player and others at the table to not pay you off. In fact players who are watching who you don't have a lot of history with may classify you as a maniac and make mistakes in the future against you based on this one play.

[antistuff 0]

i think he has to fold all pairs here for this to be good considering how much it cost you to pull off. ive read you saying before that these players fold too much so against this player it might be good. do you often take a line of calling the flop raise and c/r the turn with your better hands?

[opie 0]

Interesting spot because we're relying entirely on the strength of our own perceived range and not at all on him having a non-made hand. Any thoughts?This is a hand that generated a little discussion elsewhere. I find it interesting and so I thought I'd share it here. I did leave the results off here, but it's more the thought processes involved than the hand itself that I'm interested in. If people give decent, well-thought-out responses, I'll gladly share my (very long) thoughts as well.

Ooooo - this could be a fun discussion.I *REALLY* like your play here. Not that I would ever do it (although, depending on what I learn in this discussion ...). But that's why I'm bumbling along at the $1/$2 level, just breaking even (yeah for rakeback!).At my level, a flop raise usually means they have something and aren't laying it down unless things change drastically. Button usually has a Q. I suppose they could also make this play with a middle pair (88 - JJ), trying to push you off the hand if you missed. But those are often 3 bet, so they are less likely. Anyway, at my level, they are probably calling through to the river in either case, suspecting they are beat (can't let go of a pocket pair, especially with just one overcard on the board). So I doubt your play would work against donks at the lower levels (like me).What else could villain have? He called 2 cold - rarely is that done when they don't have two face cards or a pair. Villain could have AJ or ... KJ? AK and not 3bet? In those cases, if he bluffed at the flop, he lays down his hand to the turn check raise. So the longer the hands goes on, the more I think villain has a Queen. So your play will only work if you think villain will lay down his Q, either putting you on a hard with a bigger kicker or KK or AA.The turn card was a good card for you. It makes what you are representing even more likely. It doesn't help the villain. Let me ask you - when did you decide on this line? Immediately after the flop raise, did you decide that you would call that bet and check-raise any safe turn? What would be a safe turn card - is there any card that would have changed your mind?I can't decide if the river was a good card for you. Do you think it may have hit the villains hand? What is he putting you on at this point? He has to be thinking you have at least top pair, so the K would not have improved your hand.Peace,Opie<edit - yeah, what Bob said.>

[navybuttons 15]

i don't play a whole lotta 6max, but i assume T8s UTG is -ev. easy flop cbet. the real key to this hand is your flop 3betting threshold. the wider your 3bet range is the less in love i am with the turn play.his range feels skewed toward made hands, but i assume you're hoping he'll lay down his weakest 7s?how sick would a river c/c be?

[antistuff 0]

i don't play a whole lotta 6max, but i assume T8s UTG is -ev. easy flop cbet. the real key to this hand is your flop 3betting threshold. the wider your 3bet range is the less in love i am with the turn play.

i brought this up above and i think its important also. im not sure how dink balances this, but depending this could give the whole thing away.

his range feels skewed toward made hands, but i assume you're hoping he'll lay down his weakest 7s?

im not even sure how to do the math here(and i wish i was), but intuitively it seems he needs to lay down hands like QJ also. it cost quite a bit to get here.

how sick would a river c/c be?

against players that will fold ace high on the turn and will also 3 bet you light on the turn this is a very plausible idea. i do think the player has to be just about perfect for this though.

[DinkDonk 1]

I think that you guys are really overestimating the importance of my overall balance here. How often do we have this spot come up?This is part of the other discussion I had:It's funny, but after all this talk about balance, this is actually a spot where I'm pretty imbalanced. Most standard regs will always 3-bet the flop when they decide to bluff and only very good players will bluff c/r the turn without a good draw, so I find that I get more call-downs if I 3-bet the flop with my big hands, and get more folds when I c/r the turn. So I suppose since the rest of the poker world is so generally imbalanced, it makes it very profitable to be imbalanced in the opposite direction so long as you can take advantage of the improper adjustments people will make. Obviously they eventually adjust, but people don't pay very good attention and it takes a loooooong time to see the "long run" in a spot like this.Edit- and pre-flop is because I like to play hands and it's pretty. (Table was weak and foldy and steals were working a large % of the time. My image was good and I was still relatively new to the table having not shown down any hands.) I don't feel like it's far enough -EV in standard conditions for it to be that questionable under favorable conditions. I open up 89s UTG in most games and I feel that I do so profitably.

[antistuff 0]

so this is an exploitative play?

[DinkDonk 1]

so this is an exploitative play?

I'm not sure we can or should classify plays as balancing or exploitative and I think almost all good plays should be a little of both (assuming we play against non-perfect players), but I would say that this particular bluff was neither a planned part of my overall strategy nor an attempt to get closer to a complete equilibrium strategy soooo it could be labeled largely exploitative, yes. The main reasons I decided to take this line are more about overall imbalances in the collective group of high stakes players I play with. One trend that has appeared recently is raising lightly in multi-way pots. Obviously people have always tried to use their relative position to face the field with 2 bets, but recently I've seen it done with a much, much wider range than usual. So I put many more weak/marginal made hands in his range than a lot of you seem to. This means that we have both more pot equity and more fold equity under my assumptions than a lot of yours. (Since that's such an important piece to the hand, I guess I should have given a detailed read. The thing is, I wanted this discussion to be more around general tendencies and the power of observation than about an individual read based on an individual imbalance.)Secondly, I've never noticed anyone pure bluffing in these spots. People have learned that they need to peel flops much more lightly than they were 3 years ago, but they haven't yet learned to supplement the equity of those peels and protect their wide peeling range by making bluffs on some turn cards. So on that particular turn, I felt I could very easily represent KQ+, an overpair or a set. I also have zero draws in my range to c/r on this turn and so I feel Villain would be much less likely to call down to catch bluffs. I almost never see people do anything but play straightforwardly in this type of spot (even excellent players) and so I think I can exploit the adjustments that Villain has either knowingly or unknowingly made to that general trend. If the collective group of players is imbalanced in this spot and never bluffs, I feel it's a spot to imbalance ourselves in the opposite direction and take advantage of skewed or inaccurate perceptions players may have about us. I've found that regs will project their own ranges onto other regs as a default read and adjust from there. And so if a player never bluffs in this spot, and I think I can fairly safely say that about this villain, then they won't expect you to bluff here either, at least until they're shown otherwise.One thing I disagree with is how expensive you think the bluff is, Anti. We've got 8 small bets in preflop, 4 in on the flop (I'm never folding for 1 bet of course), and then 1 BB on the turn. So we're getting 3.5 to 1 to make him fold on the turn and 8 to 3 to make him call turn/fold river. I don't give him many Q's in his range (maybe QJ, QT, Q9s, discounted KQo) and so no matter what range I give him I can't find a reasonable scenario where a bluff is incorrect if he folds all of his 7's and worse. If he folds any Q's it would be a massive mistake not to bluff. So the only question here is whether we think people will fold those hands, not so much the price.

[kingcon31 0]

First of all, Dink you make a very interesting point about the 3bet flop line and the call c/r turn line. I've never specifically thought about it, but you are right the call c/r the turn line does look a lot stronger and I've rarely seen somebody bluff with that line. This is why I think your play could be a nice play. Your line looks extremely strong. I think Bob got most of it pretty good. The only way I think this is a good play is when your playing at the stakes your playing at. I think at most of the lower stakes everyone is too bad to understand your play or on auto pilot and will just throw the call out with any Q. To me this play makes your range look like 77, QQ, AQ, KK, and AA. Therefore, if you know your player and he knows you well and "knows" you wouldn't do some outrageous bluff like this then he can probably find a fold here with things as good as QJ. I'm guessing he would 3bet AQ on the button so that takes that out of his range. If your read is that he can fold despite it being limit and getting a great price on the river then I would think the only hands you would be really afraid of is 77, KQ, and A4.Regardless of this being a good or bad play I think Bob got at the most important thing, which is that if it works you stole a big pot and if it doesn't you an incredibly bluffy image which will be worth way more than the 3 or 4 bets you lost on this hand.

[FCP Bob 1,312]

I didn't consider how often Dink 3-bets flops mainly because with this board is the button ever not betting the turn ? If Dink had flopped a big hand he's going to be able to get the check raise in. Maybe I'm wrong in thinking this way but I didn't see it as a standard situation since there are zero draws basically so I didn't factor in what Dink does in more standard situations.

[DinkDonk 1]

My 3 favorite poker players are Phil Ivey, Hoss, and Robert Varkonyi.

[FCP Bob 1,312]

My 3 favorite poker players are Phil Ivey, Hoss, and Robert Varkonyi.

They all seem to have a pretty good understanding about where they stand in the poker world.

[CobaltBlue 662]

Dink, the only thing that I don't really understand from villain's perspective...if he's going to fold the river, shouldn't he bet b/fing the turn? (Since it'd be super highly likely that you're betting the river after c/ring the turn.)

[bbgun 0]

Trying to clear a $200 bonus from Tilt playing $.50/1...been 2-3 tabling and just went +100BB in 350 hands on one table, helps going 9 for 9 with JJ, QQ, KK and AA.

[FCP Bob 1,312]

Trying to clear a $200 bonus from Tilt playing $.50/1...been 2-3 tabling and just went +100BB in 350 hands on one table, helps going 9 for 9 with JJ, QQ, KK and AA.

I've been away all weekend, I hope you're still running as well.

[SwolyswoND 1]

Is this an okay spot for a river bluff raise? I literally dont think I've ever done that at LHE but this feels like a good time to try.Full Tilt Limit Hold'em, $4.00 BB (5 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comPreflop: Hero is Button with 9 , 9 1 fold, MP raises, Hero 3-bets, 2 folds, MP callsFlop: (7.5 SB) A , K , 10 (2 players)MP checks, Hero bets, MP callsTurn: (4.75 BB) 10 (2 players)MP checks, Hero checksRiver: (4.75 BB) J (2 players)MP bets, Hero foldsTotal pot: $19 (4.75 BB) | Rake: $0