I Checkraise And Then Checkraise Again

[higher_flyer 0]

Party PokerNo Limit Holdem Ring gameBlinds: $0.50/$16 playersConverterStack sizes:UTG: $91.23UTG+1: $160.52CO: $146.61Button: $114.38SB: $109.13higher_flyer: $251.08Pre-flop: (6 players) higher_flyer is BB with A T UTG folds, UTG+1 raises to $4, 3 folds, higher_flyer calls.Flop: T 2 K ($8.5, 2 players)higher_flyer checks, UTG+1 bets $6, higher_flyer raises to $20, UTG+1 calls.Turn: 9 ($48.5, 2 players)higher_flyer checks, UTG+1 bets $30, higher_flyer raises to $100Opp is 23/21, steals blinds 37%, AF 7 ... i.e. a good player, much better than average for this limit and site. My stats are 20/17, and he knows I'm decent also. This checkraise line is one I have rarely taken but I tried it this time based on one big factor - the stack sizes. If I bet say 35, his remaining stack of 135 is perfect for a shove or pot-commiting raise. I didn't really fancy calling another 100 on the turn at this point so I thought I'd check. 1) If he checks behind I could get a free card against say KJ, KQ, JJ, QQ. Against these hands my equity is good but not as good as his, so investing nothing favours me. 2) If he bets I can checkraise and perhaps fold out KQ-KJ, AT, QQ-JJ. If he doesn't fold I still have about 25-33% equity, so it isn't that bad. 3) Most importantly, he could be bluffing here, or just 'auto-betting cos I checked' with say JT, QT, 88, heart draw etc. He would have folded to another strong lead so if this is the case I get his $30 that I wouldn't have got otherwise. Comments on this line?

[mtdesmoines 3]

Comments on this line?

Check raising the flop is fine. If it's me, I lead the turn, because I'm essentially semi-bluffing pretty hard against an OBV strong hand that's now committed when I check raise, as opposed to him finding a fold to a check raise lead. I like double check raising with hands that are sneak strong. I don't like doing it when I'm 90% sure to be behind in the hand.

[AndyZ28 0]

You almost always have to lead the turn here. He called your check raise, you're in command of the hand. Bet $33-42 on the turn.Of course if you don't improve on the river you can at least shut down.Since you check raised the turn, if your miss your spade, you lost a lot more money than you would have if you lead out and got called.The flop check raise is fine though, I play nut flush draws the same way sometimes. I usually just lead with it and call a raise.

[psujohn 0]

I hate every street. Fold pre-flop - your hand is very easily dominated. OOP with ATs vs an EP raises is -EV.On the flop you want to bet/3-bet. You're favored over top pair here. Put as much in on the flop as possible.The turn isn't horrible I suppose because of the awkward stack sizes. If I come into the hand on the turn though I'm more likely c/c'ing.Edit: I take that back. On the turn as played I think lead > c/c > c/r.

[AndyZ28 0]

I hate every street. Fold pre-flop - your hand is very easily dominated. OOP with ATs vs an EP raises is -EV.On the flop you want to bet/3-bet. You're favored over top pair here. Put as much in on the flop as possible.The turn isn't horrible I suppose because of the awkward stack sizes. If I come into the hand on the turn though I'm more likely c/c'ing.Edit: I take that back. On the turn as played I think lead > c/c > c/r.

No offense, but folding AT suited from the BB in a 6 handed cash game seems kind of nitty to me. Especially with his stack. Now full ring, I would agree with you depending on how the table has been. If the EP raiser has been pretty tight, then I'd give him respect. That's all skeptical though. But as far as on paper, folding AT suited PF from the BB 6 hand seems really nitty to me.

[higher_flyer 0]

Hate every street? Preflop and the flop are absolutely standard for me. Effective stackes are $160 and it's 6-max against a fairly LAG player. Then the flop I think checkraising is standard. Betting out is just odd, it announces you have something and also is something I wouldn't do if I hit big, so why do it with a draw. For me the only debate is about the checkraise on turn.

[Rufats 0]

I don't like check-raising the turn as well. Lead out and, if he calls, you get to see the river for 1/3 of the price, because I don't think he's folding "an OBV strong hand" here (given 2.5 to 1 pot odds).

[David_Nicoson 1]

I think it's a pretty good line given the aggressiveness of the villain. Note that if he bets the full pot on the turn, however, that he's already pot-committed.

[Acid_Knight 2]

Preflop should not be standard. It's not horrible to flat this OOP against aggressive villains, but the fact that you are 160 BBs deep means that you should be less inclined to play dominated hands like this OOP. I think folding preflop is probably best, but against a villain that aggressive, it's not horrible to play. The flop is fine. Just because we flop a monster and choose to c/r as opposed to bet/3betting, doesn't mean that we make a mistake. It's a style thing. Maybe the Hero hardly ever donk bets, so c/r would be more in line with what he's doing.On the turn, the only thing I don't like about checking is that you give him the opportunity to commit himself to the pot, which kind of sucks for you. You want to have as much FE as possible since your pair of 10s is not best here a ton of the time. I think this is a great line if you think he's gonna bet a draw/weak hand on the turn because it's the only way to get more value from him.Minus preflop, I like the way you played the hand. Because of stack sizes, next time just bet like 80% of the pot on the turn so that you're committed and give him more reason to consider folding.

[higher_flyer 0]

I think calling preflop is correct, though probably a small error with 100BB stacks. It costs $3 to call and we could win $162. That's 54-1 best case scenario. We flop two pair, trips, quads, or the nut flush almost 4.5%, that's about 21-1. Those figures don't show that we should call but they're worth knowing. I'm pretty sure we win here with an ace, the nut flush draw, or combo draw enough times that it's worth calling. Either way, it's not that important of a decision compared to the turn. Anyone have any more thoughts on this unusual line?

[Webslinger516 0]

The argument about what you can flop and whatnots with A10s is good, but the problem is that you're out of position. Although 4.5% of the time you're going to flop big, it's tough to maximize your profits out of position, and the other 95.5% of the time you're either going to miss the flop or be dominated and the reverse-implied odds kick in. The stacks are deep, but you mention that he's a good player, better than average. So I would assume he's not terrible enough to make this a profitable call pre-flop. If he's a good player, I don't think you're going to take his stack enough times to make this a profitable call out of position.Post-flop, agreed with everything Acid said. Most of the time after AK posts, I either learn something new or just nod in agreement.

[Acid_Knight 2]

I think calling preflop is correct, though probably a small error with 100BB stacks. It costs $3 to call and we could win $162. That's 54-1 best case scenario. We flop two pair, trips, quads, or the nut flush almost 4.5%, that's about 21-1. Those figures don't show that we should call but they're worth knowing. I'm pretty sure we win here with an ace, the nut flush draw, or combo draw enough times that it's worth calling. Either way, it's not that important of a decision compared to the turn. Anyone have any more thoughts on this unusual line?

This thinking is incorrect. With larger stacks and a hand that typically has worse reverse implied odds than it has implied odds, you're better off folding preflop. This is because when you play larger pots, your hand will often be dominated by his stronger hand and when you hit and he misses, you'll just win small pots.Preflop decisions are also very important because if you make a bad preflop decision, you are forced into possibly making more bad decisions on subsequent streets that you should've never been exposed to because you shouldn't be involved in the 1st place.The # of times that you'll lose money on Txx flops or Axx flops with this hand against his hands which dominate you (JJ-AA on Txx flops, AK-AJ on Axx flops) will very easily outweigh the times where you flop some huge hand and he flops some slightly smaller huge hand and you stack him. For that reason, this hand just isn't gonna show a very large profit, if any, by calling OOP here preflop. This is why folding is correct.

[higher_flyer 0]

Folding is not correct, in my opinion. With flops like Axx or Txx I'm not going to go broke, probably check/calling the former and c/c or c/f the latter depending on texture. I'd be interested to see what more people think of this so I posted it on the Cardrunners forum as well. Remember that the rest of the table is pretty awful so it's basically me and this player doing all the raising, isolating and 3-betting, taking turns to pound. His range is colossal, any pair, A8+, any suited ace, tons of suited connectors and almost all broadways. I think he has the reverse implied odds, not me, for the times he gets commited with AK on a ATx board, or QTs on a TTx board. I'm 90% sure this is correct or at least break-even.

[Acid_Knight 2]

Folding is not correct, in my opinion. With flops like Axx or Txx I'm not going to go broke, probably check/calling the former and c/c or c/f the latter depending on texture. I'd be interested to see what more people think of this so I posted it on the Cardrunners forum as well. Remember that the rest of the table is pretty awful so it's basically me and this player doing all the raising, isolating and 3-betting, taking turns to pound. His range is colossal, any pair, A8+, any suited ace, tons of suited connectors and almost all broadways. I think he has the reverse implied odds, not me, for the times he gets commited with AK on a ATx board, or QTs on a TTx board. I'm 90% sure this is correct or at least break-even.

1. If it's 6 handed and there is 1 other good player at the table, the correct way to play is to basically fold everything to his raises when OOP and he should do the latter and then you both can have your way with the other 4 bad players. 2. Playing OOP sucks. Playing OOP against good players with marginal hands is like burning money.3. I didn't say that you're going to go broke, but if you think you're gonna win >1 bet on Axx or Txx flops when you're beating him, I think you're dreaming. On the other hand, you're probably gonna be facing multiple street decisions on those boards and since you admit his range is huge, you're gonna have a tough time making good decisions since you're OOP.4. If his range really is so huge, reraise preflop and take control of the hand. You have no idea what he's got and you're gonna c/f the flop about 2/3 of the time because you'll miss, he'll c-bet and you won't want to play a big pot OOP with air.5. Yeah, if you have AT and he has Tx and the board comes with the case two tens for a TTx flop, yeah, you'll stack him. I doubt you stack AK on ATx. In fact, if he's actually good, I doubt that you get to stack him unless you specifically flop a huge combo draw or unless he flops a combo draw and you flop 2 pair or something. Otherwise, one of you is just gonna be playing a huge pot with a 1 pair hand, which is usually a mistake.This is a REALLY standard preflop fold. You give up virtually nothing by folding this hand every time you see it in the BB and are facing a raise from EP. If this player is good and aggressive, as you say he is, you should absolutely hate to play hands like this OOP to a raise preflop. The fact that there are 4 other bad players at the table makes calling here even dumber since you're intentionally putting yourself in a very marginal position against the only player at the table that you should be trying NOT to be involved with.Showing a profit here will be much harder than you think, IMHO.What are you gonna do when you call his raise and the flop comes:A92r? You check, he bets, you call. The turn is a 7. You check, he bets, now what?AJ9cc? You check, he bets, you call. The turn is a 7. You check, he bets, now what?AQ7r? You check, he bets, you call. The turn is a J. You check, he bets, now what?It's just like, there are soooooooooooo few good boards for you to see with this hand. The T high flops aren't any better for you. You're OOP and you're fishing for such a tiny range of boards where you really nail your hand so that you can play it like the nuts. Couple this with the fact that you're just not gonna stack him very often even when you do hit your hand, and you're looking at a rather large leak when you play this hand here preflop.

[psujohn 0]

AK has covered pre-flop far better than I could. As for bet/3-bet the flop it's closer. I don't often donk but I will if I flop a monster (set) or a monster draw like this - especially against an agg villain. Extra especially against an agg good villain. At the small stakes most donk bets are weakness and agg villains are prone to raise a big portion of their range. Plus bet/3-bet is the only way we're getting significant $$ in the middle on the flop where we're ahead.

[Temporary Nuts 1]

Ok, with this preflop discussion and stuff...A-T is easily dominated blah blah...but... are we seriously folding A-Xs to one standard raise getting a discount?I mean... not overplaying (or even playing depending) single pair hands with this is an option...

[psujohn 0]

Ok, with this preflop discussion and stuff...A-T is easily dominated blah blah...but... are we seriously folding A-Xs to one standard raise getting a discount?I mean... not overplaying (or even playing depending) single pair hands with this is an option...

What's your advantage? We play a hand when we have an advantage and fold otherwise, right?- Do we have position? No, we're oop the entire way.- Do we have a likely best hand? Against any likely range we're either beat or dominated most of the time. We can only hope that villain has KdQd.- Is it likely that villain will make a good hand while we hold a better hand? Very unlikely. In the event that we hit a str8 villain can easily have two pair but it's unlikely that villain holds a worse A or worse spades.The hand's we're most likely to hit - Axx or Txx leave us OOP and unsure of where we are in the hand and therefor we won't be looking to build a big pot.If we do hit the nuts with a flush or a str8 we're OOP and it's hard to build a pot unless villain is hyper-agg and bad. Straights and flushes are pretty obvious.If the bet comes from an agg player on the B we can often 3-bet these kinds of hands pre-flop. If it's folded to us in LP we can certainly open with this. OOP when it's been raised this hand is going to be -EV.And please don't talk about getting a "discount". In NL you're looking to build and win big pots and 1 BB is insignificant.

[Acid_Knight 2]

Ok, with this preflop discussion and stuff...A-T is easily dominated blah blah...but... are we seriously folding A-Xs to one standard raise getting a discount?I mean... not overplaying (or even playing depending) single pair hands with this is an option...

Understand that it's not about whether we have the best hand or not, it's about whether or not we're going to show a profit given the current situation.Being OOP against a tricky aggro player with a wide range, we don't want to be calling and trying to hit a flop. Yes, we often have the best hand and can even have him dominated. If that's the case, then we should reraise and make him react to us. When we start calling here preflop, we play a guessing game as to what his hand is and when that happens, we're probably gonna lose a lot of $$.

[higher_flyer 0]

Well so far the Cardrunners membership is divided, mostly agreeing with you, Acid_Knight. I am kind of surprised at this but I still hold out suspicions that some of the pros would call with this given that average player's EV < Cardrunners pro EV in this situation. Also remember that even if we are sacrificing 1-2% equity, we are increasing our percieved calling range against a regular, which is sometimes worth a lot. The more narrow our hand range is, the more predictable we become and the more profitable it is to raise our blind.

[SCS 0]

Well so far the Cardrunners membership is divided, mostly agreeing with you, Acid_Knight. I am kind of surprised at this but I still hold out suspicions that some of the pros would call with this given that average player's EV < Cardrunners pro EV in this situation. Also remember that even if we are sacrificing 1-2% equity, we are increasing our percieved calling range against a regular, which is sometimes worth a lot. The more narrow our hand range is, the more predictable we become and the more profitable it is to raise our blind.

You aren't really losing anything in the long run by folding ATs from the blinds to an early position raise. As said by other posters, here and on the CR forum, the RIO here are horrible for you. You just won't show a profit in the long run. If there were a couple of callers then a call here would be fine.There is no need to worry about losing our blind here to a steal because villain isn't raising from a steal position.