Advice On Marginal Hands

[breathweapon 0]

So, I'm compiling ranges based on starting hand charts, expected value charts and Poker Tracker statistics for a friend, but I thought I'd gather a consensus on ranges for marginal hands to weight the numbers. Is there an accepted range for AJ, AT, KJ, KT, QJ, QT suited and unsuited in 10 handed cash games that should be taught to n00bs?1) I open AJ, AT and KJ, KT, QJ, QT suited in middle position.2) I open KJ, KT, QJ, QT off suit in the cut off. 3) I don't call EP/MP raises with these hands unless they're A) suited and B) in position or I'm in the BB.4) I 3bet LP raises with these hands when I'm in the SB.5) I call LP raises with these hands when I'm in the BB.I have reasonable Poker Tracker stats for these hands, but these hands are often the most difficult hands to play and the most counter intuitive hands to teach to a beginner. How do you guys approach these hands, and do you have any suggestions for teaching other people how to play these hands?

[Zach6668 513]

limit?

[breathweapon 0]

limit?

Micro stakes No Limit, but I'd be interested in hearing Limit opinions as well. I assume the pot odds and betting cap make them a lot easier to play in that game?

[Sheiky 0]

UTG - AQo+ 22+ EP(UTG+1/2) - AJs+ 22+MP(MP 1/2/3) - ATs+ AJo+ 22+ KQsLP(CO+Button) - A7s+ A8o+ 22+ 45s+ KTo+ Suited one gappers and QJThat's my general openin range for a 10-handed game, i open a bit looser all round but for a begginer i think this is decent enough.As for calling ranges, impress upon your friend that AJo/KQo in EP/MP to a UTG open should be an auto fold, they shouldn't be calling many UTG/UTG+1 raises in general. Basicaly, try and teach your friend that flat calling PF generaly = bad.

[navybuttons 15]

UTG - AQo+ 22+ EP(UTG+1/2) - AJs+ 22+MP(MP 1/2/3) - ATs+ AJo+ 22+ KQsLP(CO+Button) - A7s+ A8o+ 22+ 45s+ KTo+ Suited one gappers and QJThat's my general openin range for a 10-handed game, i open a bit looser all round but for a begginer i think this is decent enough.As for calling ranges, impress upon your friend that AJo/KQo in EP/MP to a UTG open should be an auto fold, they shouldn't be calling many UTG/UTG+1 raises in general. Basicaly, try and teach your friend that flat calling PF generaly = bad.

i think 22,33,a and 44 UTG is a slight leak at a 10 handed game.

[TravisG 0]

i think 22,33,a and 44 UTG is a slight leak at a 10 handed game.

why? because you cant make an all-undercards board with those hands? does that really matter? if you raise utg with 22 flop comes 3 5 6, do you really put the caller on the button on ace 6 suited?

[navybuttons 15]

why? because you cant make an all-undercards board with those hands?

that's one of the reasons.

does that really matter?

is this a joke? of course it matters.

if you raise utg with 22 flop comes 3 5 6, do you really put the caller on the button on ace 6 suited?

what are you going to do if button calls a flop bet? the main reason that raising 22, 33, 44, and other small PPs UTG is bad at a 10 handed table is that the value of the hand is too weak. there's too many players behind and so often there's a hand behind you that can 3 bet or that you're behind, or that can call and flip with you. small PPs typically play so poorly postflop that it's difficult to win a big pot with them.do you really think you're giving up tons of value by folding them? i'd be really surprised if you were. limping at a really passive 10 handed table is for sure fine though i think.

[breathweapon 0]

Raising all PPs in all positions is important for balancing ranges, stealing blinds and continuation betting. Increasing the pot size and isolating the opponent is critical to stacking, while limping to set is a tell to fold. I don't think conventional wisdom regarding PPs is correct, limping is a tell, folding is tight and raising is going to cause minimal losses at its absolute worst. Even if raising all PPs and calling to set in 3bet pots is slightly -EV, it makes you a significantly more dangerous player.Edit: The reason that limping to set is a tell is because of the reaction time between calling with a PP and considering whether or not to call with the non PP limped hands. When you limp a PP, you're hoping some one raises behind you, so you instinctively call and reveal your hand based on your reaction time. When you a limp a suited connector etc. you're hoping every one else limps behind you, and when some one raises, your hesitation (or fold) also reveals your hand. If that goes unnoticed, the inevitable donk, check/raise or call, check/raise or call, call ... lines are just as obvious.

[navybuttons 15]

Raising all PPs in all positions is important for balancing ranges, stealing blinds and continuation betting. Increasing the pot size and isolating the opponent is critical to stacking, while limping to set is a tell to fold. I don't think conventional wisdom regarding PPs is correct, limping is a tell, folding is tight and raising is going to cause minimal losses at its absolute worst. Even if raising all PPs and calling to set in 3bet pots is slightly -EV, it makes you a significantly more dangerous player.Edit: The reason that limping to set is a tell is because of the reaction time between calling with a PP and considering whether or not to call with the non PP limped hands. When you limp a PP, you're hoping some one raises behind you, so you instinctively call and reveal your hand based on your reaction time. When you a limp a suited connector etc. you're hoping every one else limps behind you, and when some one raises, your hesitation (or fold) also reveals your hand. If that goes unnoticed, the inevitable donk, check/raise or call, check/raise or call, call ... lines are just as obvious.

i disagree with like 95% of this.

[TravisG 0]

do you really think you're giving up tons of value by folding them? i'd be really surprised if you were.

no, i just dont see any difference in 22,33,44 and 55,66,77 (and maybe 88). i just muck all of these earlier than mp (not 88, this is the only one i open utg). open limping with those small pocket pairs is an option on passive (meaning calling-stations-like) tables, but i never openlimp, so i just muck them.edit: oops, i didnt even read that you wrote that last sentence, too. good that my opinion on that last option seems right

[navybuttons 15]

no, i just dont see any difference in 22,33,44 and 55,66,77 (and maybe 88). i just muck all of these earlier than mp (not 88, this is the only one i open utg). open limping with those small pocket pairs is an option on passive (meaning calling-stations-like) tables, but i never openlimp, so i just muck them.

oh. you were generally saying what i was saying only different. i think that 77 and 66 are gonna be good enough at showdowns enough to make them profitable. of course, if you never open limp then i'd def. muck 66 UTG. it seems in my head that 66 and 77 are gonna hit the flop slightly harder if you don't set. like with the top half of an OESD. is this just in my head?

[TravisG 0]

like with the top half of an OESD.

what. maybe my english isn't good enough to understand this (i'm german).if you're saying you flop open ended straight draws more often, thats right, i think. i didn't even think about this. but i don't think those add a lot of value in pots which will likely be 2 or 3 handed [implied odds vanish a little if you have to make something with a 4card board]and erm.. i didn't even answer your question:[writing this out of my memory]

what do you do if you get a call on the flooop?

I'd be more worried about a higher pp than A6 or whatever, thats why i think 55-77 don't play much different on those floops (not for nit players, though. they might think they're always ahead when undercards come and behind when one overcard comes).oh and a little explanation why i don't open limp small pps on really passive tables, even if the math would suggest it: i think small pps play really shitty against real calling stations. you'll literally never know for certain if you're ahead of someone who might be calling you down with a7s and hits his seven to your 5s on a 2 2 4 8 7 board. and i think a player who's solely going for set-value is missing much value on his pocket pairs.

[breathweapon 0]

i disagree with like 95% of this.

Limping to set is ok if the opponents are incompetent, and granted most opponents are, but I've taken down more blinds, more small pots and more stacks via. raising small pocket pairs than not. Raising them is certainly more skill intensive, but it's considerably more rewarding. There are enough respectable players that standard raise all PPs in all positions, so I don't think it's really that far out of line.Edit: Yeah, if the opponent's are calling station than raising small PPs isn't worth the effort, I'm at 5/10 NL so it's a different ball game than multi tabling micro stakes.

[TravisG 0]

Limping to set is ok if the opponents are incompetent, and granted most opponents are, but I've taken down more blinds, more small pots and more stacks via. raising small pocket pairs than not. Raising them is certainly more skill intensive, but it's considerably more rewarding. There are enough respectable players that standard raise all PPs in all positions, so I don't think it's really that far out of line.

you're talking about tournaments i guess.

[breathweapon 0]

you're talking about tournaments i guess.

No, I was talking about cash games, I'd do the exact opposite in tournaments, because the "bad player" factor increases and the chips are more important in relation to the stack sizes and blind levels.

[Merby 3]

i disagree with like 95% of this.

I'm curious......What is the 5% that you do agree with? Because I can't find anything that I agree with.

[Acid_Knight 2]

***Disclaimer: I didn't read the OP or any replies.***Advice on marginal hands: Don't play them.You're welcome in advance.

[breathweapon 0]

I'm curious......What is the 5% that you do agree with? Because I can't find anything that I agree with.

From Ed MillerThe Small and Medium Pocket PairsLet’s talk about the small and medium pairs for a moment. Playing these hands does two things for you: 1. It balances your hand range so you don’t always have big cards when you play up front. 2. It allows you to flop sets and win big pots occasionally.Above, I recommended that against weak players you make big raises with your big early position hands. What about the small and medium pairs? You don’t want a huge pot with a small pair, since usually you’ll fold on the flop. So you don’t want a huge raise either. But you might want to make a small raise rather than limp, because it could make it easier to win a big pot if you “sweeten” it somewhat with a small preflop raise.It's sort of standard LAGG to raise up medium/small pairs and suited connectors in EP and then use the EP raise to represent an AKQ pair or over pair and take down the pot with a continuation bet or a double barrel. As long as you've shown down AK, AQ, KQ or JJ+ from EP as TAGG you can switch into LAGG and either steal from up front or stack some one with an odd hand.If all you do is multi table micro stakes then it probably doesn't apply to you.