Convert Me...

[Kaveros 0]

What do I care? Seriously. If you are smart enough, andif you open your eyes and ears there is ample info to help you make up your mind.Listening to stories of snakes talking to people in the amazing garden of eden should be enough to make you realize.I suggest you read anyting by Dawkins, listen to episodes of Penn Radio, and watch episodes of Penn & Teller Bullshit (The bible episode).

[Spademan 94]

New question for the atheists in here. Have you read any books or articles that swayed you to becomin an atheist?

I think this has pretty much been explained to you, but you don't "become" an atheist.You don't become an atoothfairyist. Or an agoblinist.It means lack of belief in theism.Not believing in some magical fairy tale isn't a system of belief. It isn't a club you must join. I was born naked. When I take my clothes off to take a shower I don't become a "nudist", I'm just naked again.

[timwakefield 68]

I don't believe in a creator God. I never have. I guess this makes me an atheist. It is not a choice, or a set of beliefs that I follow - it is simply the lack of belief in God. To borrow some analogies from earlier posts in the thread, asking somebody to convert you to atheism is like asking somebody to convince you the Tooth Fairy is not real. In other words, it's something you have to figure out for yourself.

[KramitDaToad 0]

You and others in this thread seem to be under the impression that I'm a christian.

I wonder why?

I still believe in God

Hmmm? Maybe that's it

Maybe in saying "convert me" I used bad terminology.

Ya think?

I feel like I've learned very little from this thread, but ok.

You don't get 'taught' to become an atheist. You don't have to learn anything other than how to think objectively.

Oh, and please don't just link me to really lengthy articles or book titles. If I wanted to do things that way I'd find the best book on the subject and read it (and I may do that someday), but I really don't have that kind of time.

Have you read any books or articles that swayed you to becomin an atheist? Have you heard of a book called The God Delusion? I'm considering reading it, any thoughts on it? Thanks.

Can you be any more inconsistent?Seriously, have a think about what your asking here because I pretty sure you don't know yourself

I'm very smart

I'm not convinced

[Spademan 94]

Looking back at this thread reveals how representative it is of how pervasive superstition is even in these "modern" times.So many people who have access to information on a scale so incredible compared to history, so much knowledge and ability for learning... and still we have this sort of willful ignorance pervading the very heights of our society.The compartmentalization is remarkable. People who can hold degrees, build and invent and create, people with strength in math and art, people who run countries can separate all of their critical thinking skills when it comes to something they grasp as deeply personal.They think that their personal god, their personal religion, their personal world-view is beyond self inspection. It must stem from the fact that such a concept is so deeply rooted as to feel like losing it would be to lose oneself.If only people could know just what clarity actually losing one's self really brought.I digress.Such a large portion of humanity is so culturally immersed that it becomes impossible to think of a world-view that does not include one particular myth over another, or more important - no myth at all.To such people, not believing in Allah, or Jebus or Zeus or Whoever, depending on the cult is some momentous thing, where a decision must be made in one's life to neglect such belief. That some huge effort must have been made to shun this big man in the sky that they've come so powerfully to respect or fear.I am telling you, to many people (to inject a bit of anecdotal fallacy here, most extremely well educated people whom I've met) any particular God is exactly the same concept as Santa.I know some people will think that is some sort of insult to them or theirs, or just an attempt at humor or belittling. It isn't. I mean that as factually and seriously as I can express in written text.Your God is Santa Claus to me.They both see when I am good and bad. Watch me while I sleep. They both offer rewards and punishments based on my behavior. Most important, they both are figments of your fucking imagination.I know it's difficult to believe. You've grown up gullible. Somewhere along the line you've learned to believe in things because someone told you to, rather than based on examination of the facts. Somehow you've come to accept warm fuzzy feelings as evidence. There in your past you've developed the idea that evidence is only of use some of the time and wishing a suitable alternative the rest -- that hope is enough to establish the very foundations of your character, personality and self. That's all well and good.Just don't get to killing for your particular God, whichever it is you follow in your common delusion.Other than that I won't hate you for waving your hands in the air at magic or dancing with snakes.

[hblask 1]

You're probably the worst poster on FCP.

IIRC, he has me on his ban list, too, because I dared to challenge his thinking. Funny guy... I guess he just wants to see posts from people who admire and adore him.

[speedz99 145]

IIRC, he has me on his ban list, too, because I dared to challenge his thinking. Funny guy... I guess he just wants to see posts from people who admire and adore him.

I'm guessing this is difficult.

[timwakefield 68]

spademan

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

IIRC, he has me on his ban list, too, because I dared to challenge his thinking. Funny guy... I guess he just wants to see posts from people who admire and adore him.

LOL I admit my posts can be caustic, but I have zero tolerance for stupidity..and that is to say, middle of the road stupidity. I have a huge tolerance for the really, really stupid and insane. I'll fight for their right to post here till my last breath.. but douche bags like this guy who are just too lazy to think? Fuk them.

[TheCinciKid 0]

Thank You Spademan. Well written post, I think that's the sort of thing I was looking for with this thread. I now have a better understanding of what it means to be an atheist and that's mainly what I was looking for. In a way, I've always kind of seen atheism as an abandoning of hope among other things. But, I can now see that for many people that's not necessarily the case. At any rate, I have a better understanding of it. I will continue my search for truth and I appreciate those who at least tried in this thread to explain their belief system. Now, to KramitdaToadYou seem to think there is no difference between believing in God and being a christian, there is, in fact, a very big difference. To begin with, I could be a Jew or a Muslim, or I could simply believe that there is a higher power, but not necessarily the Christian idea of God. In other words, it's very easy to believe in God and not be a Christian, please don't make assumptions. Did I use bad terminology by using the words "convert me?" Maybe, but I didn't find that out until later in the thread, so don't presume to jump down my throat. If I was trying to undersand what Muslims believe, or what Methodists believe, or what Jews believe, then using the term "convert me" would be very valid. Apparently, atheism isn't something you convert to, my bad. Obviously I didn't understand that, now I do, cut me a break.As far as my inconsistencies. I started out with one tack, didn't really feel like I got any substantive responses, so I tried something else. Obviously if I'd put those in the same post that would have been inconsistent, since I started the second request with "new question" it's not inconsistent at all. Finally, there's this...You don't get 'taught' to become an atheist. You don't have to learn anything other than how to think objectively.I don't like the bolded statement of yours at all, but it seems like atheists use it a lot. It doesn't seem to me like it means much of anything. It seems like atheism is this nebulous idea that stems from thinking objectively. You don't explain how you get from thinking "objectively" to believing that there is no god. Or is it just that when I start think "objectively" then some revelation will come over me and I'll realize that there is no god? Explain to me how you get from point a to point b, don't just say "you have to learn to think objectively."

[Kaveros 0]

Nice post spademan.

[hblask 1]

I don't like the bolded statement of yours at all, but it seems like atheists use it a lot. It doesn't seem to me like it means much of anything. It seems like atheism is this nebulous idea that stems from thinking objectively. You don't explain how you get from thinking "objectively" to believing that there is no god. Or is it just that when I start think "objectively" then some revelation will come over me and I'll realize that there is no god? Explain to me how you get from point a to point b, don't just say "you have to learn to think objectively."

This has been explained a couple of times in this thread, so I'm not sure what else you want. Different words? OK, I'll try.Atheism isn't an "idea", it isn't a "belief". It's what you get when you say "the world/universe is a real, physical entity, and it has certain laws that are consistent and observable". Anything outside of that which is observable is known as "faith", and is something you either choose to believe or not, based on *your own internal needs*. So in a sense, atheism is accepting the fact that your life is pretty much identical whether you believe or not, and there is no reason to think that it will matter after your death, either, unless it gives you some warm fuzzy about the value of your life. If you want to know what made me give up on a belief in god, it's two thoughts:1) "Even if God did not exist, mankind would find it necessary to invent him." -- a famous quote by someone2) You can replace almost all references to God with "me" or "myself" and get exactly the same meaning/result. In other words, God is some idealized version of yourself that you hold in your head that you can appeal to when you need some extra strength. So why not just choose yourself to begin with?From there, the other arguments fall into place pretty quickly. You still have to convince yourself to accept them, but nobody particularly cares if you do or not, as long as you don't try to force your religion on others.

[Kaveros 0]

This has been explained a couple of times in this thread, so I'm not sure what else you want. Different words? OK, I'll try.Atheism isn't an "idea", it isn't a "belief". It's what you get when you say "the world/universe is a real, physical entity, and it has certain laws that are consistent and observable". Anything outside of that which is observable is known as "faith", and is something you either choose to believe or not, based on *your own internal needs*. So in a sense, atheism is accepting the fact that your life is pretty much identical whether you believe or not, and there is no reason to think that it will matter after your death, either, unless it gives you some warm fuzzy about the value of your life. If you want to know what made me give up on a belief in god, it's two thoughts:1) "Even if God did not exist, mankind would find it necessary to invent him." -- a famous quote by someone2) You can replace almost all references to God with "me" or "myself" and get exactly the same meaning/result. In other words, God is some idealized version of yourself that you hold in your head that you can appeal to when you need some extra strength. So why not just choose yourself to begin with?From there, the other arguments fall into place pretty quickly. You still have to convince yourself to accept them, but nobody particularly cares if you do or not, as long as you don't try to force your religion on others.

Voltaire

[Spademan 94]

Thank You Spademan. Finally, there's this...You don't get 'taught' to become an atheist. You don't have to learn anything other than how to think objectively.I don't like the bolded statement of yours at all, but it seems like atheists use it a lot. It doesn't seem to me like it means much of anything. It seems like atheism is this nebulous idea that stems from thinking objectively. You don't explain how you get from thinking "objectively" to believing that there is no god. Or is it just that when I start think "objectively" then some revelation will come over me and I'll realize that there is no god? Explain to me how you get from point a to point b, don't just say "you have to learn to think objectively."

Quite welcome.Here is what you seem to be missing about the "objective" sentiment: I never believed in a God in the first place.I didn't need to change anything or come to some conclusion or replace anything.Again, I come to the tooth fairy. I am not trying to patronize, just explain here. Did you ever have to sit down and have a moment with yourself over coming to the momentous decision that there is no tooth fairy? (This may be a bad example because I'm sure many kids had to do just that...)Personally, I never even believed in Santa.I recall when I was, I dunno, I was 8 or younger depending on the house this memory occurred in. I remember grilling my mother about how Santa could possibly get to every kids house in the same night. How he could possibly know every little thing that every little kid did. I was skeptical of the claims I'd heard about this powerful north pole master of elves. They seemed incongruent with reality, if not downright impossible.Well, after some none committal answers, I went to bed.A few nights later, I heard a slight sound in the living room and sneaked out to investigate. Let's see this Santa Claus. Well, it was my dad putting presents under the tree.That ended that.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

Quite welcome.Here is what you seem to be missing about the "objective" sentiment: I never believed in a God in the first place.I didn't need to change anything or come to some conclusion or replace anything.Again, I come to the tooth fairy. I am not trying to patronize, just explain here. Did you ever have to sit down and have a moment with yourself over coming to the momentous decision that there is no tooth fairy? (This may be a bad example because I'm sure many kids had to do just that...)Personally, I never even believed in Santa.I recall when I was, I dunno, I was 8 or younger depending on the house this memory occurred in. I remember grilling my mother about how Santa could possibly get to every kids house in the same night. How he could possibly know every little thing that every little kid did. I was skeptical of the claims I'd heard about this powerful north pole master of elves. They seemed incongruent with reality, if not downright impossible.Well, after some none committal answers, I went to bed.A few nights later, I heard a slight sound in the living room and sneaked out to investigate. Let's see this Santa Claus. Well, it was my dad putting presents under the tree.That ended that.

I wish debunking Xianity was that easy. I wish every xian on the planet would wake up early easter morning, look into their back yard, and see the rock is still infront of the cave, and jesus's corpse is right where those christ killing jews left it.

[TheCinciKid 0]

This has been explained a couple of times in this thread, so I'm not sure what else you want. Different words? OK, I'll try.Atheism isn't an "idea", it isn't a "belief". It's what you get when you say "the world/universe is a real, physical entity, and it has certain laws that are consistent and observable". Anything outside of that which is observable is known as "faith", and is something you either choose to believe or not, based on *your own internal needs*. So in a sense, atheism is accepting the fact that your life is pretty much identical whether you believe or not, and there is no reason to think that it will matter after your death, either, unless it gives you some warm fuzzy about the value of your life. If you want to know what made me give up on a belief in god, it's two thoughts:1) "Even if God did not exist, mankind would find it necessary to invent him." -- a famous quote by someone2) You can replace almost all references to God with "me" or "myself" and get exactly the same meaning/result. In other words, God is some idealized version of yourself that you hold in your head that you can appeal to when you need some extra strength. So why not just choose yourself to begin with?From there, the other arguments fall into place pretty quickly. You still have to convince yourself to accept them, but nobody particularly cares if you do or not, as long as you don't try to force your religion on others.

Okay.I appreciate that you spelled it out like that. I don't think that I really agree that objectivity necessarily brings us to the conclusion that there is no god, I would think that true objectivity brings us to the conclusion that we can't know whether or not there is a god...i.e. agnosticism. But whatever, I've learned a lot from this thread and that I appreciate.

[timwakefield 68]

If only people could know just what clarity actually losing one's self really brought.I digress.

I would think that true objectivity brings us to the conclusion that we can't know whether or not there is a god...i.e. agnosticism.

Exchange God for Santa in your statement. Do you think we should be agnostic as to the existence of Santa Clause because it is definitively impossible to disprove his existence? “It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I feel also not able to imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. My views are near those of Spinoza: admiration for the beauty of and belief in the logical simplicity of the order which we can grasp humbly and only imperfectly. I believe that we have to content ourselves with our imperfect knowledge and understanding and treat values and moral obligations as a purely human problem—the most important of all human problems.”Albert Einstein, 1947I heard that dude was wicked smart.

[TheCinciKid 0]

Exchange God for Santa in your statement. Do you think we should be agnostic as to the existence of Santa Clause because it is definitively impossible to disprove his existence? “It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I feel also not able to imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. My views are near those of Spinoza: admiration for the beauty of and belief in the logical simplicity of the order which we can grasp humbly and only imperfectly. I believe that we have to content ourselves with our imperfect knowledge and understanding and treat values and moral obligations as a purely human problem—the most important of all human problems.”Albert Einstein, 1947I heard that dude was wicked smart.

I think it's easier to objectively disprove Santa Claus than God. I've never seen any mysterious Christmas presents show up at my house, neither has anyone else I know. You'd think somebody I know would be good enough to receive presents if Santa really exists. I see that as pretty tangible evidence that there is no Santa Claus. I don't think you can present a similar argument that disproves God. But, I digress. I do understand your analogy, I just question it's validity. Anyway, I'm not gonna sit here and argue about whether or not there's a god. I don't have the energy or conviction for it.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

I think it's easier to objectively disprove Santa Claus than God. I've never seen any mysterious Christmas presents show up at my house, neither has anyone else I know. You'd think somebody I know would be good enough to receive presents if Santa really exists. I see that as pretty tangible evidence that there is no Santa Claus. I don't think you can present a similar argument that disproves God. But, I digress. I do understand your analogy, I just question it's validity. Anyway, I'm not gonna sit here and argue about whether or not there's a god. I don't have the energy or conviction for it.

It's alot harder to prove santa doesn't exist that you'd thinkand the mysterious presents thing is what we're talking about. No tangible evidence of god.

[timwakefield 68]

It's alot harder to prove santa doesn't exist that you'd thinkand the mysterious presents thing is what we're talking about. No tangible evidence of god.

Yeah but you're missing the main point imo: there are MILLIONS of people who, in their heart of hearts, believe Santa to be real. Sure they are children, but that's not the point. The point is that they are mistaken.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

Yeah but you're missing the main point imo: there are MILLIONS of people who, in their heart of hearts, believe Santa to be real. Sure they are children, but that's not the point. The point is that they are mistaken.

no, I got that point, I was just making the point that it's hard to logically prove something doesn't' exist.

[TheCinciKid 0]

no, I got that point, I was just making the point that it's hard to logically prove something doesn't' exist.

This is the exact point that I've been trying to make to the people who say that all atheism takes is a little objective thought. I would think that being objective would start you out at agnosticism, then once you say that you believe there is no god, then you become less objective. I dunno, that's what makes sense to me. Maybe I'm missing something, or maybe most people who call themselves atheist are just agnostic but lean towards thinking it's unlikely that there is a god.

[speedz99 145]

You seem to think there is no difference between believing in God and being a christian, there is, in fact, a very big difference. To begin with, I could be a Jew or a Muslim, or I could simply believe that there is a higher power, but not necessarily the Christian idea of God. In other words, it's very easy to believe in God and not be a Christian, please don't make assumptions.

It wasn't that hard to assume:

This completely close-minded point of view is what bothers me about most atheists. I believe in God, I don't really believe in much more than that at the moment, but I'm working to on trying to learn everything I can and decide what I believe. I was raised Catholic and I think that that Catholic Church has a lot of very good points. It's also run by human beings so it has some major flaws. But, that's really neither here nor there. Now, why do I think atheists tend to be angry? Because deep down they realize that they've taken the easy way out and thy fear that they could be wrong. An atheist is only accountable to himself because there is no higher power.

Or is it just that when I start think "objectively" then some revelation will come over me and I'll realize that there is no god? Explain to me how you get from point a to point b, don't just say "you have to learn to think objectively."

It's impossible for anyone to say, "THIS is why I know there is no god." Tell us why you think there could be, and we'll tell you why we might tend to disagree.

[speedz99 145]

This is the exact point that I've been trying to make to the people who say that all atheism takes is a little objective thought. I would think that being objective would start you out at agnosticism, then once you say that you believe there is no god, then you become less objective. I dunno, that's what makes sense to me. Maybe I'm missing something, or maybe most people who call themselves atheist are just agnostic but lean towards thinking it's unlikely that there is a god.

I see your point, but to even admit "I don't know if there is a god" is implying that it's even a possibility, which objectibly be past the starting point.I'm not sure if I'm even making any sense.

[Swift_Psycho 1]

I see your point, but to even admit "I don't know if there is a god" is implying that it's even a possibility, which objectibly be past the starting point.I'm not sure if I'm even making any sense.

It made sense, though I suppose your wording could have been better.You were attempting to say that the statement "I don't know if there is a god" already assumes the possibility of god at all, arguably without warrant.We don't tend to do the same thing with other 'possibilities' like "I don't know if there is a FSM," since we have no reason to think in the first place that it is even worth considering as a possibility.I think that's what you're trying to say, yes?