Here's The Situation

[Vtlaxer09 4]

OPU are a very good player, but u are wrong on a few levels.1st...Poker is ALWAYS every man for himself. If u are indeed playing for the win (as I assume someone of your playing caliber does), then you are gonna have to stack everyone anyway. Basically your convo in AIM should have been...good luck and I am going to crush faces....not hey remember I need 4th.2nd...You put HIM in a horrible spot anyways by shoveling over his min raise. U had 11 BB's and your shove over his minraise has him pretty much pot committed to call w/ KQ AGAINST YOUR RANGE. So even if he wasn't your roomate, when u shove any player who DOESN'T snap call your shove is making a -EV play.....imo!

1. I agree with you 100%. Only things here are this: I had not played a hand... he had minraised the last 3 hands. With 11 bb's... I think I have to shove right there. 2. While poker is every man for himself... try and put yourself in this situation... for whatever amt. of money would be a very healthy boost to your bankroll. Maybe Im just a nice guy... but Im folding KQ right there 100% of the time against one of my best friends who I KNOW is not shoving anything that I beat and would usually have me crushed. It was 270k more i believe when he only had 60k himself commited. I just think it was unnesecary.3. Again... Im very against collusion obviously. ThisWAS a very unusual circumstance being that MY ROOMMATE and I final tabled something with a 1500 person field. Usually I play mtt's with him in the living room.... im gonna go ahead and say that 95% of online players would be playing side by side right there. I was in a different house and we didnt aim cards etc. but again... for how easily we could have and didnt should not constitute me being called a douchebag.4. Normal final table.. .w/o the jackpot involved and this probably would not have bothered me. He knows what place I needed... I didnt have to call him up and remind him that. 5. Again, try to put yourself in my shoes and not as an outsider lecturing me on what a PERFECT world would be.

[Sportsmack 0]

I've got $20 left on FT...wanna trade BR's?

[Vtlaxer09 4]

nvm, bc its not what you wanted to hear?You changed the way the both of you play at a FT which isn't fair to anyone else at the table. It's colluding AND cheating.

tell me how I changed the way i Played please. thanks.

[Poker Addict 0]

Still sucks, but cheating is bad.

QFTI don't think you can be mad at him for this VT. I have a lot of respect for your play and your recent success, but in this case you are in the wrong. Would have been cool for you to win the jackpot though. Shouldn't be his concern and if it was, I wouldn't want to be at the table with you two.GL winning the next jackpot!

[Gallo 1]

I get what you're saying VT, but if your roomate folds there, then you are also hurting HIS chances at winning. And you could be costing him even more than what he's costing you.

[acesup85 0]

You played it perfectly, 1) Best hand2) Accepted all in without to see the floopYou sound ridiculous right now trying to get us to think you are right when you aren't. If you don't want to get called and lose, don't put the money in the middle.

[donk4life 34]

This is easy.Kill your roommate, take his BR, and everyone's happy.Seriously, I'm not sure if I agree with you OP.. You wanted your roommate to change the way he played so you could move up in the standings, that's just not fair to the other players. You say for us to put ourselves in your shoes, well put yourself into the other players at FT's shoes... You wouldn't want other players at the table purposely folding hands for eachother so they can move up in the standings.. I don't care if its for your own mother, you don't do that.

[Poker Addict 0]

2. While poker is every man for himself... try and put yourself in this situation... for whatever amt. of money would be a very healthy boost to your bankroll. Maybe Im just a nice guy... but Im folding KQ right there 100% of the time against one of my best friends who I KNOW is not shoving anything that I beat and would usually have me crushed. It was 270k more i believe when he only had 60k himself commited. I just think it was unnesecary.3. Again... Im very against collusion obviously. ThisWAS a very unusual circumstance being that MY ROOMMATE and I final tabled something with a 1500 person field. Usually I play mtt's with him in the living room.... im gonna go ahead and say that 95% of online players would be playing side by side right there. I was in a different house and we didnt aim cards etc. but again... for how easily we could have and didnt should not constitute me being called a douchebag.

VT.... you need to take a step back and look at this. It might not be as bad as sitting next to each other looking at the others hold cards, but you are asking him to play differently, softer, against you because he is your roommate. It might not feel as bad as looking at each other cards, but it is still asking to alter the play because he is your friend. That is cheating and not fair to the game.EDIT: [X] IAF

[Figger 0]

Collusion !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Come on now...Punch me !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!You wanted your friend to soft play you so you could win extra money. Loser. Earn it yourself.You obviously were playing with scared money. Your friend was able to chip up, while you sat back and blinded off, just hoping you'd hit your magic number and when you tried to take advantage of your friend (hoping he would fold to your all-in bet), well, nice strategy. NOT.Move on... Nothing to see here.

[MrJohn 0]

Someone asked what I would do if our roles were reversed.100% fold. No doubt about it. Call me a cheater... but thats just common sense imho.

If the roles are reversed?Easy fold. Call me a cheater as well.

[krup24 0]

You had the best hand and lost. He didn't exactly hurt your chances, you just lost a race. You can't ask for more than getting it in good, even marginally good. Well, besides asking to win the hand, but here's another thought.... Maybe you wouldn't have made that play if someone else at the table had made the raise. Were you just reraising your roommate because you expected him to help you out and fold? I would say it has to come into the equation at some point, and in that case it's not really straight up.Still sucks, but cheating is bad.

most important question of the whole thread imoi don't think he shoves if it isn't his roomate and that is where the problem liesand yeah you got ur chips in with a marginally good edge so wtf

[acesup85 0]

If the roles are reversed?Easy fold. Call me a cheater as well.

You are a cheater too then. There I said it.

[MrJohn 0]

You are a cheater too then. There I said it.

Thanks.

[Willing 2 Die 0]

1. I agree with you 100%. Only things here are this: I had not played a hand... he had minraised the last 3 hands. With 11 bb's... I think I have to shove right there. 2. While poker is every man for himself... try and put yourself in this situation... for whatever amt. of money would be a very healthy boost to your bankroll. Maybe Im just a nice guy... but Im folding KQ right there 100% of the time against one of my best friends who I KNOW is not shoving anything that I beat and would usually have me crushed. It was 270k more i believe when he only had 60k himself commited. I just think it was unnesecary.3. Again... Im very against collusion obviously. ThisWAS a very unusual circumstance being that MY ROOMMATE and I final tabled something with a 1500 person field. Usually I play mtt's with him in the living room.... im gonna go ahead and say that 95% of online players would be playing side by side right there. I was in a different house and we didnt aim cards etc. but again... for how easily we could have and didnt should not constitute me being called a douchebag.4. Normal final table.. .w/o the jackpot involved and this probably would not have bothered me. He knows what place I needed... I didnt have to call him up and remind him that. 5. Again, try to put yourself in my shoes and not as an outsider lecturing me on what a PERFECT world would be.

what? you just won $65,000 dollars? $1,000 bucks is a healthy boost?Also, this roommate is now your best friend? I'm lost.

[Vick12 0]

1. I agree with you 100%. Only things here are this: I had not played a hand... he had minraised the last 3 hands. With 11 bb's... I think I have to shove right there. 2. While poker is every man for himself... try and put yourself in this situation... for whatever amt. of money would be a very healthy boost to your bankroll. Maybe Im just a nice guy... but Im folding KQ right there 100% of the time against one of my best friends who I KNOW is not shoving anything that I beat and would usually have me crushed. It was 270k more i believe when he only had 60k himself commited. I just think it was unnesecary.3. Again... Im very against collusion obviously. ThisWAS a very unusual circumstance being that MY ROOMMATE and I final tabled something with a 1500 person field. Usually I play mtt's with him in the living room.... im gonna go ahead and say that 95% of online players would be playing side by side right there. I was in a different house and we didnt aim cards etc. but again... for how easily we could have and didnt should not constitute me being called a douchebag.4. Normal final table.. .w/o the jackpot involved and this probably would not have bothered me. He knows what place I needed... I didnt have to call him up and remind him that. 5. Again, try to put yourself in my shoes and not as an outsider lecturing me on what a PERFECT world would be.

1. No this is diagreeing with me. I have no problem w/ your shove....as I also have no problem w/ HIS CALL.2. Do the math...24k in antes...45k in blinds...his 60k...your 60k=190k...u shove 280k more...so he has to call 280k to make 470k. So he gets not quite 2 to 1 to make the call. You REALLY think he shouldn't call here? (Math geeks can do the actual math on the 2 to 1 part...I are lazy)3. U may not have colluded....but u wanted him to let u move up the ladder?4. If the jackpot wasn't involved u wouldn't be mad? So then his play in a "normal" world would be justified...correct?5. I am not LECTURING...U make a post...I give u CONSTRUCTIVE advice on the situation...and now I am somehow lecturing?loflMy bad....I'll try not to help out next time....keep thinking the way u do OP!

[timwakefield 68]

If this was any other player he should have made the call. He's getting a decent price... but in this situation i find it to be completely unnessecary to call another 260k+ when you are never ever ahead and you have a very good stack.

See this is where you lost me. You said it yourself right there - if it's any other player he should make the call. Then you said that you specifically told your friend to play you straight up. Then you get mad at him when he calls your all-in in a spot where you yourself agree that it is a standard call vs any opponent!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I don't understand what you mean when you say it is "completely unnecessary" for him to make this call since he is never ahead etc, but you also say against anybody but you he should make the call. Should he fold to you because he knows that you are a tight player and he is likely dominated? Or should he fold to you because he is your friend? I think you should be able to see that if it is the latter, then your friend did nothing wrong.

[ah2388 0]

Honestly...I dont think you being mad is abnormal, people get mad bc someone didnt cut them a break all the time

[Willing 2 Die 0]

how can you claim to be so against collusion but then rationalize your obvious collusion? i think thats why alot of people are not siding with you vlat.

[acesup85 0]

You should have just finished 40th in the first tourney and there would be no problem!

[Vtlaxer09 4]

Collusion !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Come on now...Punch me !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!You wanted your friend to soft play you so you could win extra money. Loser. Earn it yourself.You obviously were playing with scared money. Your friend was able to chip up, while you sat back and blinded off, just hoping you'd hit your magic number and when you tried to take advantage of your friend (hoping he would fold to your all-in bet), well, nice strategy. NOT.Move on... Nothing to see here.

lol.... you're cool.I've been a part of these forums for quite a while now and alot of you know me to be a very decent person and someone who loves poker. For those of you who dont know me too well... please dont be so quick to judge me and call me a cheater... because I am the oppositeI see all of your points as valid but let me clear up a few things. We did NOT share cards. I did NOT change the way i played. I did NOT expect him to change the way he would play other than.... In an iffy situation.... such as having KQ with 60k in.... a fold is not a terrible thing to do. Im never asking him to fold AK there or 1010... etc. etc. etc. IMO if you approach this issue with a clear cut "this is cheating and this isnt" attitude.. then you're taking the wrong approach. This isnt an online poker forum buddy of mine... this is my best friend and roommate who is always wanting me to do well... and likewise I want him to do well. Like i said.. i fold 100% of the time if I were him.Im pretty much over it... I understand where alot of you are coming from... and I really hope you can put yourselves in my shoes and try to understand. I understand his call and Im a little upset about the hand (moreso that I cant ever win a 60/40) but more or less i just felt like he should have folded. (I understand this is the poker table... but seriously people try and see things from my side) I didnt have to post this situation here but I thought it would make for a good thread seeing as how general has been slightly lacking as of late. I wanted your honest opinions... not snide remarks. I got a few of each and I thank those of you that contributed something.It was a very very very unusual circumstance.. one that I had never been in before. In my opinion I handled it fine. I played exactly how I would have played it. I really dont think that expecting a fold out of my roommate constitutes me being a cheater. Thank you,AG

[Vtlaxer09 4]

1. No this is diagreeing with me. I have no problem w/ your shove....as I also have no problem w/ HIS CALL.2. Do the math...24k in antes...45k in blinds...his 60k...your 60k=190k...u shove 280k more...so he has to call 280k to make 470k. So he gets not quite 2 to 1 to make the call. You REALLY think he shouldn't call here? (Math geeks can do the actual math on the 2 to 1 part...I are lazy)3. U may not have colluded....but u wanted him to let u move up the ladder?4. If the jackpot wasn't involved u wouldn't be mad? So then his play in a "normal" world would be justified...correct?5. I am not LECTURING...U make a post...I give u CONSTRUCTIVE advice on the situation...and now I am somehow lecturing?loflMy bad....I'll try not to help out next time....keep thinking the way u do OP!

The response was not aimed at your post alone.

[20TN40 0]

1. I agree with you 100%. Only things here are this: I had not played a hand... he had minraised the last 3 hands. With 11 bb's... I think I have to shove right there. 2. While poker is every man for himself... try and put yourself in this situation... for whatever amt. of money would be a very healthy boost to your bankroll. Maybe Im just a nice guy... but Im folding KQ right there 100% of the time against one of my best friends who I KNOW is not shoving anything that I beat and would usually have me crushed. It was 270k more i believe when he only had 60k himself commited. I just think it was unnesecary.3. Again... Im very against collusion obviously. ThisWAS a very unusual circumstance being that MY ROOMMATE and I final tabled something with a 1500 person field. Usually I play mtt's with him in the living room.... im gonna go ahead and say that 95% of online players would be playing side by side right there. I was in a different house and we didnt aim cards etc. but again... for how easily we could have and didnt should not constitute me being called a douchebag.4. Normal final table.. .w/o the jackpot involved and this probably would not have bothered me. He knows what place I needed... I didnt have to call him up and remind him that. 5. Again, try to put yourself in my shoes and not as an outsider lecturing me on what a PERFECT world would be.

VT, I've read every post in this thread and now I'm questioning my own motives. These are my thoughts in my own not so humble opinion:1) You didn't ask him to LET you win anything, just informed him that you needed 4th for the jackpot.2) Roommate didn't need to let you win the tourney or even get 3rd, just not knock you out before 4th.3) In your shoes, I'd be pissed that he called my all in when not necessary for his tourney life. In HIS shoes, I'd be pissed that you just AIM'ed me saying we'd stay out of each others way and then immed. went over the top of my $60k.Number 3 may be why he called. Because I would have immed. AIM'ed you and said "WTF". You didn't HAVE to go right there, you chose to go right there.You're a good player and I'm sure your recent successes are just the tip of the iceburg. But thinking on it now, you did put him in a bad situation by basically trying to steal his $60k. Keep on strokin and you're gonna be fine!

[FARGOpokerND 22]

lol.... you're cool.I've been a part of these forums for quite a while now and alot of you know me to be a very decent person and someone who loves poker. For those of you who dont know me too well... please dont be so quick to judge me and call me a cheater... because I am the oppositeI see all of your points as valid but let me clear up a few things. We did NOT share cards. I did NOT change the way i played. I did NOT expect him to change the way he would play other than.... In an iffy situation.... such as having KQ with 60k in.... a fold is not a terrible thing to do. Im never asking him to fold AK there or 1010... etc. etc. etc. IMO if you approach this issue with a clear cut "this is cheating and this isnt" attitude.. then you're taking the wrong approach. This isnt an online poker forum buddy of mine... this is my best friend and roommate who is always wanting me to do well... and likewise I want him to do well. Like i said.. i fold 100% of the time if I were him.Im pretty much over it... I understand where alot of you are coming from... and I really hope you can put yourselves in my shoes and try to understand. I understand his call and Im a little upset about the hand (moreso that I cant ever win a 60/40) but more or less i just felt like he should have folded. (I understand this is the poker table... but seriously people try and see things from my side) I didnt have to post this situation here but I thought it would make for a good thread seeing as how general has been slightly lacking as of late. I wanted your honest opinions... not snide remarks. I got a few of each and I thank those of you that contributed something.It was a very very very unusual circumstance.. one that I had never been in before. In my opinion I handled it fine. I played exactly how I would have played it. I really dont think that expecting a fold out of my roommate constitutes me being a cheater. Thank you,AG

Neither is calling. I put myself in your shoes...my roomate is a poker nut like myself. I imagined myself in the same spot as yours, and if I shoved, he called, and he won the 40-60 flop, I'd be INFURIATED. I probably would not be happy with him for a week. I would bring it up to him every chance I got. But I GUARANTEE that 2 weeks...a month....a year from now, I'd look back at it and realize that he was just playing his game. You trying to explain to us that it is possible for him to fold every time in that spot, and not because of soft-play/collusion, means that he had no proper odds to call. I think that Vick proved that he was priced in to call. I DO know what you mean as for your logic why he should fold. I'm sure you both have a good idea on each other's ranges and you felt that he should know that you pushing means if he has KQ, he is more often than not, crushed. But in the end, he made a marginal call in a marginal spot and won a 40-60 flip. There is nothing else to it. I'm sorry that your hand didn't hold and you go on to win the average finish. But remember, outside of the math and knowing his opponents range, there is NO OTHER reason that is justifiable for him to fold. Knowing you are close to the best average finish should NOT be a deterrent to call in a marginal spot.

[Vtlaxer09 4]

Neither is calling. I put myself in your shoes...my roomate is a poker nut like myself. I imagined myself in the same spot as yours, and if I shoved, he called, and he won the 40-60 flop, I'd be INFURIATED. I probably would not be happy with him for a week. I would bring it up to him every chance I got. But I GUARANTEE that 2 weeks...a month....a year from now, I'd look back at it and realize that he was just playing his game. You trying to explain to us that it is possible for him to fold every time in that spot, and not because of soft-play/collusion, means that he had no proper odds to call. I think that Vick proved that he was priced in to call. I DO know what you mean as for your logic why he should fold. I'm sure you both have a good idea on each other's ranges and you felt that he should know that you pushing means if he has KQ, he is more often than not, crushed. But in the end, he made a marginal call in a marginal spot and won a 40-60 flip. There is nothing else to it. I'm sorry that your hand didn't hold and you go on to win the average finish. But remember, outside of the math and knowing his opponents range, there is NO OTHER reason that is justifiable for him to fold. Knowing you are close to the best average finish should NOT be a deterrent to call in a marginal spot.

QFT. TNT- he just stole my BB... He deserved it.

[Potsie P 0]

Vtlaxer, you need to stop right now. You're attacking those who don't agree with you, and you're quickly losing respect in this forum (at least mine). Just ask yourself a simple question:Is it possible an entire forum of your colleagues could be wrong, and you could be the only one who's right?You may have said "let's play straight up but oh, don't forget...blah blah blah" but c'mon, you were asking for preferential treatment from your friend or you wouldn't have added that "reminder." And you're saying as much in all your posts after the fact...about how if it's anyone else he should call, and shouldn't he know about how healthy the bonus would be to your bankroll, etc. Sorry, but in my book, friendship doesn't come with conditions, especially a "let me win or I'll punch you in the face."And don't question my post count. I've been here for years and just because I don't make a lot of "Hi" and "First" and "FYP" posts, doesn't mean mine or anyone else's opinion isn't valid--another "friendship with conditions" slant that frankly, I didn't appreciate from you with respect to other posters.Keep playing hard, Vtlaxer, but don't ever expect anything less from the rest of us.