Obama On The War

[Balloon guy 158]

Call me crazy, but the safest place they can be is home. I will, again, ask the question that I've yet to see get answered by those who feel staying for 5, 10, 100 years until "we win" is the way to go. What is your definition of winning??

Our job is to make sure that even if everybody in the world dies, everyone but one man...that that man is an American!

[Balloon guy 158]

if america takes actions that make radical islamic people hate us more, we are cutting off our nose to spite our face. that's ****ing stupid, and we should be smarter than that. going into iraq just made things worse on precisely this score.

You mean they will hate us worse than they did on September 10th, 2001?Wow, that's alot of hate.

[freak2304 0]

Our job is to make sure that even if everybody in the world dies, everyone but one man...that that man is an American!

Sigh. See, this is what I always get as responses...serious answer anyone??

[checkymcfold 0]

You mean they will hate us worse than they did on September 10th, 2001?Wow, that's alot of hate.

yes, actually. AQ recruitment is at an all time high, ainec. we're ****ing ourselves right in the ass.

[checkymcfold 0]

Unfortunatly I have to dissagree with you there checky. I'm pro Obama and anti-republican but I think if Obama or Clinton gets elected and decides to keep their promise of withdrawing all troops and getting everyone out within a year I think it will be a big mistake and hurt the ones that are still there. I think we have done so much damage over there that we need to stay there as long as it takes to be able to pull everyone out SAFELY whether it takes a year or 10. The main thing we need to do is concentrate on keeping the troops safe. (well as safe as you can be during a war). I also think that if we just start pulling troops it is going to give terrorist more confidence to attack us.

the alternative is staying there forever. i fail to see how that's a better situation, although i do agree that in the process of withdrawal, we might see a slight upsurge in violence (unless we withdraw from areas altogether at once rather than slowly make our deployments more sparse, which may not lead tot he same situation, not that i know anything about how to move troops around optimally)what i do disagree with is that it will "give the terrorists more confidence." they're going to be scrambling to gain control of an unstable region no matter when we leave if they're at all intelligent (and they are), so leaving at any point is going to kinda screw us in that way unless there's some sort of sea change in world philosophy in the next couple years.

[antistuff 0]

Our job is to make sure that even if everybody in the world dies, everyone but one man...that that man is an American!

ahhhaaa....finally....the doctor strangelove hyphotheis is confirmed....

[Balloon guy 158]

Sigh. See, this is what I always get as responses...serious answer anyone??

All righty then.ONE serious response. That is it, do not ask for more.Staying until the Iraqis have a viable police force that can protect their own people, and a form of government that will work on bettering the lives of all Iraquis, not just the tribe in charge, will result in bringing the region into the 21st century. Hopefully when they have respect for life, and use education and oil money to turn their people into a more modern mode of life, this will allow for a base of Islam that isn't run by Jihaad crazed Mullas and oil rich spoiled kids that send off poor people's kids to blow up bus stops and restaurants.The desire to live peacefully can take hold, and if it does everyone will be the better for it. Remember, the Islamic faith once treated Jews better than any other nation, so they have a peaceful side to them. The nut cases are in charge now, whether in front, or in the alleys.I now believe this to be a difficult at best goal, maybe not even attainable. But we are in a situation that demands we either stick it out, or turn off the news cameras because the carnage will be worse than Darfur.Truth is, no oil and nobody would care enough to spend a dime to help them. But oil is the lifeblood of the world's economy, and the fact they sell it opens them up to the rest of the world. We can all pretend it's our intrusion, but they are pumping the stuff, setting the price world wide, and spending enough money to influence governments. They are not a group of people sitting on the sidelines getting picked on.The attitude that they are 'unsaveable' is probably no different than the impression we had during 1945 when we decided to help Japan. A country 100% militaristic and bent on controlling everything they could. Their children were being trained to fight us, and they believed they were the chosen people of the world. It didn't change in 4 years there either.Having said the above, I think Bush was naive thinking we could accomplish this task at hand. Not because we can't, but because we don't want to. I too place the life of one American soldier above the life of many Iraquis. But that's all water under the bridge, we are there now, let's stay to win and not be wishy washy.

[Balloon guy 158]

ahhhaaa....finally....the doctor strangelove hyphotheis is confirmed....

Thank you for knowing so much about random movie quotes.1.00001

[freak2304 0]

All righty then.ONE serious response. That is it, do not ask for more.Staying until the Iraqis have a viable police force that can protect their own people, and a form of government that will work on bettering the lives of all Iraquis, not just the tribe in charge, will result in bringing the region into the 21st century. Hopefully when they have respect for life, and use education and oil money to turn their people into a more modern mode of life, this will allow for a base of Islam that isn't run by Jihaad crazed Mullas and oil rich spoiled kids that send off poor people's kids to blow up bus stops and restaurants.The desire to live peacefully can take hold, and if it does everyone will be the better for it. Remember, the Islamic faith once treated Jews better than any other nation, so they have a peaceful side to them. The nut cases are in charge now, whether in front, or in the alleys.I now believe this to be a difficult at best goal, maybe not even attainable. But we are in a situation that demands we either stick it out, or turn off the news cameras because the carnage will be worse than Darfur.Truth is, no oil and nobody would care enough to spend a dime to help them. But oil is the lifeblood of the world's economy, and the fact they sell it opens them up to the rest of the world. We can all pretend it's our intrusion, but they are pumping the stuff, setting the price world wide, and spending enough money to influence governments. They are not a group of people sitting on the sidelines getting picked on.The attitude that they are 'unsaveable' is probably no different than the impression we had during 1945 when we decided to help Japan. A country 100% militaristic and bent on controlling everything they could. Their children were being trained to fight us, and they believed they were the chosen people of the world. It didn't change in 4 years there either.Having said the above, I think Bush was naive thinking we could accomplish this task at hand. Not because we can't, but because we don't want to. I too place the life of one American soldier above the life of many Iraquis. But that's all water under the bridge, we are there now, let's stay to win and not be wishy washy.

Ok. Call me crazy, but I don't see that EVER happening. Too tired at the moment to explain why, imo. I appreciate the response, though, as many believers I've talked to with the 'stick it out until it's won' mentality try to convince me that that means to kill/convert all those over there that we're fighting, and that's obv. never going to happen. It appears you at least have a grasp on the situation, even if we disagree on it.

[nutzbuster 7]

yes, actually. AQ recruitment is at an all time high, ainec. we're ****ing ourselves right in the ass.

So... if someone could snap there fingers and immediately pullout every American from every Islamic theater instantly, would all this hatred go away?Would the world suddenly be all better and safe and rainbowy and unicorny?Would they just drop everything and leave all of us alone forever till the end days?We all know that answer to this. And it didn't matter that we went into Iraq either. The hate was there LONG before the Bushes ever thought of the White House.They've always hated the West and it's ways, and always will, whether we are there kicking their asses or here kicking their asses.It all sucks, but I'll take the going down swinging in their backyard option, thanks.

[antistuff 0]

Thank you for knowing so much about random movie quotes.1.00001

i know nothing about politics i just wanted to contribute in what way i could.

[Nimue1995 1]

They've always hated the West and it's ways, and always will, whether we are there kicking their asses or here kicking their asses.It all sucks, but I'll take the going down swinging in their backyard option, thanks.

I'd take protecting our own backyard over swinging in theirs. Right now our own homeland isn't protected because we are spending the money over there. Tell me where in the 9-11 commission report was there anything about invading Iraq as a means to protect our homeland and prevent another 9-11?

[nutzbuster 7]

I'd take protecting our own backyard over swinging in theirs. Right now our own homeland isn't protected because we are spending the money over there. Tell me where in the 9-11 commission report was there anything about invading Iraq as a means to protect our homeland and prevent another 9-11?

Screw the 9-11 report. My comments were not about that at all, YOU injected that.My comments were meant in a much broader way, but you sort of make my point for me. A large majority of the current U.S. Military efforts has little to do with 9-11, even though that was the straw that broke the camel's back, the match that finally set of the bomb against terrorism.We have been under attack for YEARS, in direct and not so direct ways. And Iraq and Afghanistan have become the place to fight it out. Those are the literal battlegrounds against Islamic extremism now, like it or not.But we all know this.......and my point was simply this and this alone.....If we were to hastily and suddenly yank everyone out in an instant, if the U.S. were to leave and take everything with us, get out of all Middle Eastern theaters of operations and let those folks fend for themselves, would that make us any safer? Would those who want us dead at any cost just disappear and leave us alone if we left? Would we all be safe once again and never have to worry ever again about being attacked or invaded or hit in some way?Does anyone really think that is the solution? What would these crazy bastards have to do if we left? Go back to work? Doing what? THEY LIVE TO KILL! PERIOD! It is all they know. It is what there religion teaches them to do. They have no lives or jobs or purpose, so they have instead drank the radical Islamic Kool-aid and joined the ranks of the current fad to HATE AND KILL AMERICA! and go off to their 70 virgins. They know nothing else. They believe that they are doing the best thing for G O D! They think they are doing what is best for them and their movement. It is just sickening.I have no solution to offer. But just simply pulling everyone out is no solution, and I dare think that even Obama himself knows this.He will not pull out the troops.NO ONE will just pull out the troops.It is just not that easy. Wake up.

[Figger 0]

Screw the 9-11 report. My comments were not about that at all, YOU injected that.My comments were meant in a much broader way, but you sort of make my point for me. A large majority of the current U.S. Military efforts has little to do with 9-11, even though that was the straw that broke the camel's back, the match that finally set of the bomb against terrorism.We have been under attack for YEARS, in direct and not so direct ways. And Iraq and Afghanistan have become the place to fight it out. Those are the literal battlegrounds against Islamic extremism now, like it or not.But we all know this.......and my point was simply this and this alone.....If we were to hastily and suddenly yank everyone out in an instant, if the U.S. were to leave and take everything with us, get out of all Middle Eastern theaters of operations and let those folks fend for themselves, would that make us any safer? Would those who want us dead at any cost just disappear and leave us alone if we left? Would we all be safe once again and never have to worry ever again about being attacked or invaded or hit in some way?Does anyone really think that is the solution? What would these crazy bastards have to do if we left? Go back to work? Doing what? THEY LIVE TO KILL! PERIOD! It is all they know. It is what there religion teaches them to do. They have no lives or jobs or purpose, so they have instead drank the radical Islamic Kool-aid and joined the ranks of the current fad to HATE AND KILL AMERICA! and go off to their 70 virgins. They know nothing else. They believe that they are doing the best thing for G O D! They think they are doing what is best for them and their movement. It is just sickening.I have no solution to offer. But just simply pulling everyone out is no solution, and I dare think that even Obama himself knows this.He will not pull out the troops.NO ONE will just pull out the troops.It is just not that easy. Wake up.

I agree that we just cannot pull out of the Middle East, but even the Democrats have indicated that we still need to be in Afghanastan and even increase our presence there.As for Iraq, I think we need to put some definite deadlines and pressures on their government / people to take ownership. We can have a minimal force, advisers and such remain, but we really need to refocus on Afghanastan and Pakistan and the search for Bin Ladin.Bush has had his revenge (for his father) on Saddam, now let's get on with our original mission.And I think most every American, including the House and Senate would agree that if we're not in the Middle East taking these Bastards on, then there's a more likelihood they'll bring the fight to us and I think the U.S. has had enough fighting on our land. Anyways, they don't have real cites or structures. They're in the desert and live in hubbles.

[hblask 1]

I love how everyone is justifying this war by assigning all sorts of bizarre beliefs to the terrorists, when they have explained quite explicitly why they hate us: because of our Middle East policy that puts troops on their soil and supports certain of the violent groups over other equally violent groups. They have said this repeatedly, yet people who support the war keep saying "no, they are wrong when they tell us why they hate us, it's really because (of our freedom, because of our wealth, because of our immorality, because of a million other excuses)". Curiously, they are not attacking all the other rich countries that allow freedom of expression.I'm sure they just don't know their own reasons, though.

[Balloon guy 158]

Hey when we are in Afghanistan, are we going to continue to ignore the poppy fields that are being grown by the current ruling class? I have always wondered why we don't send in the DEA and burn those crops. I mean most of that heroin ends up in either Europe or America. Seems to be a quandry to leave their money making crops while we support them.Oh and did the fact Saddam randomly lobbed missles into Israel before, place him on a higher list of people that should not be allowed to live, or leave him at the same level as before? Luckily the UN was handling him so well, I mean other than the 82 resolutions he was breaking and blatent screw you he sent when he outsted Blix. I say we send the UN back and let them fix it. They are peace keepers after all. They did a smash up job in Kosovo ( as long as you weren't a civilian )

[Balloon guy 158]

I love how everyone is justifying this war by assigning all sorts of bizarre beliefs to the terrorists, when they have explained quite explicitly why they hate us: because of our Middle East policy that puts troops on their soil and supports certain of the violent groups over other equally violent groups. They have said this repeatedly, yet people who support the war keep saying "no, they are wrong when they tell us why they hate us, it's really because (of our freedom, because of our wealth, because of our immorality, because of a million other excuses)". Curiously, they are not attacking all the other rich countries that allow freedom of expression.I'm sure they just don't know their own reasons, though.

Other than Germany, France, England and Spain I think you are right. They have totally left Belgium alone.I was at an event where the former President of Spain was speaking after he got ousted by the train bombing and his take on world terrorism was very much in line with Bush's. As is the current German leader and French dude. We all know about England.

[Nimue1995 1]

Screw the 9-11 report. My comments were not about that at all, YOU injected that.My comments were meant in a much broader way, but you sort of make my point for me. A large majority of the current U.S. Military efforts has little to do with 9-11, even though that was the straw that broke the camel's back, the match that finally set of the bomb against terrorism.We have been under attack for YEARS, in direct and not so direct ways. And Iraq and Afghanistan have become the place to fight it out. Those are the literal battlegrounds against Islamic extremism now, like it or not.But we all know this.......and my point was simply this and this alone.....If we were to hastily and suddenly yank everyone out in an instant, if the U.S. were to leave and take everything with us, get out of all Middle Eastern theaters of operations and let those folks fend for themselves, would that make us any safer? Would those who want us dead at any cost just disappear and leave us alone if we left? Would we all be safe once again and never have to worry ever again about being attacked or invaded or hit in some way?Does anyone really think that is the solution? What would these crazy bastards have to do if we left? Go back to work? Doing what? THEY LIVE TO KILL! PERIOD! It is all they know. It is what there religion teaches them to do. They have no lives or jobs or purpose, so they have instead drank the radical Islamic Kool-aid and joined the ranks of the current fad to HATE AND KILL AMERICA! and go off to their 70 virgins. They know nothing else. They believe that they are doing the best thing for G O D! They think they are doing what is best for them and their movement. It is just sickening.I have no solution to offer. But just simply pulling everyone out is no solution, and I dare think that even Obama himself knows this.He will not pull out the troops.NO ONE will just pull out the troops.It is just not that easy. Wake up.

It amazes me that there are still people willing to defend Bush and his war. How many reasons have we had offered for why we need/needed to be in Iraq? And still there are those that buy each one of them including this one. And of course posts like this and attitudes like this are going to make them all come to Jesus and sing Kum-bye-ah. Yes I agree that there are some extremists that have that mindset to kill Americans. But most of the combatants in Iraq are more interested in killing each other than in killing Americans except for the fact that the Americans are preventing them from killing each other. Do you honestly believe that somehow these groups of people who have NEVER known democracy and have been at war with each other for how many years are suddenly going to wake up and change? I'm not saying they can't but look at how friggin long it took from medievel Europe to the birth of America for those democratic principles to take hold. And these people have no history of ever doing this. How many American lives is it going to take before you wake up and realize this isn't going to happen? The only ones that can decide for democracy is the Iraqis. And no matter how hard you may try to shove it down their throats, it isn't going to happen just because you want it to.

[JustDoIt 10]

Bush has had his revenge (for his father) on Saddam, now let's get on with our original mission.Ridiculous!!!And I think most every American, including the House and Senate would agree that if we're not in the Middle East taking these Bastards on, then there's a more likelihood they'll bring the fight to us and I think the U.S. has had enough fighting on our land. What planet have you been living on???

[Nimue1995 1]

Bush has had his revenge (for his father) on Saddam, now let's get on with our original mission.Ridiculous!!!And I think most every American, including the House and Senate would agree that if we're not in the Middle East taking these Bastards on, then there's a more likelihood they'll bring the fight to us and I think the U.S. has had enough fighting on our land. What planet have you been living on???

What planet are YOU on? Most Americans these days oppose the war and want us out of there as soon as possible. Plus I don't think it makes one dam bit of difference whether we're over there or not as to whether the terrorists you speak of will attack here. But it will make a difference if we've got the homeland security in place to prevent them from coming here in the first place and the job that's been done on that has been abysmal. Our ports are still wide open as are our borders. How about bringing some of those troops home to help out with that? And yes I do think there was some revenge factor in Bush attacking Iraq. From all the conversations before the war that have been made public, Bush was obsessed with finding some way to link Sadaam with Al Quada so that he could have an excuse to invade Iraq. That's why he listened to the intel that told him what he wanted to hear and ignored and covered up the intel that told him differently. Same thing we find out now is happening with Iran. So don't tell me that he didn't have an itch where Sadaam was concerned.

[nutzbuster 7]

It amazes me that there are still people willing to defend Bush and his war. Not at all what I said but I can see why you might infer this.I'll be the first one to say war sucks, and that this war was horribly managed from the get go. It's not that I support Bush, or the war, or any war.What I oppose are politicians trying to get elected by promising "Vote for me and I will pull out all the troops by March! or APRIL or whatever date!". Just absurd, ignorant and downright disastrous. There is no way this can happen and ALL the candidates know this...but yet they still use it, ONLY because they want to get elected.How many reasons have we had offered for why we need/needed to be in Iraq? And still there are those that buy each one of them including this one. And of course posts like this and attitudes like this are going to make them all come to Jesus and sing Kum-bye-ah. meh... Yes I agree that there are some extremists that have that mindset to kill Americans. But most of the combatants in Iraq are more interested in killing each other than in killing Americans except for the fact that the Americans are preventing them from killing each other. I can't disagree totally here, but I contend that our current presence in the mix of this madness is the only thing containing it. If we bail out now the civil war combatants will be overrun in short order by Islamic extremist and Al Qaeda types. Iraq would risk morphing from a state of tribal Civil war into a full blown terrorist training ground, with paying back the U.S.A. as there only goal. If not us directly, then Israel for sure. And if that happens, look out man. Israel has nukes and would not hesitate for a second to use them. THAT is the REAL issue here. We lose Iraq, we lose everything. It is a class A shit sandwich..Do you honestly believe that somehow these groups of people who have NEVER known democracy and have been at war with each other for how many years are suddenly going to wake up and change? I'm not saying they can't but look at how friggin long it took from medievel Europe to the birth of America for those democratic principles to take hold. And these people have no history of ever doing this.Agree...but we really have no choice anymore. And eventually it did happen in Europe. How many American lives is it going to take before you wake up and realize this isn't going to happen? The only ones that can decide for democracy is the Iraqis. And no matter how hard you may try to shove it down their throats, it isn't going to happen just because you want it to.Again, sadly, we are in a major pickle and just have to tough it out for a bit longer. NO one wants this crap, but it is what it is. Cutting and running is not going to save lives, it will cost more in the long run.

[akoff 0]

I went to bed to early last night...things got fun on here!!Glad to see logic coming into play...checky ws killing me last night!!

[El Guapo 8]

Look war is dirty, and since we have mass media coverage of wars now, unless we hit WWIII all wars are going to be like this. Its the same reason we failed in Vietnam. Once you go into a war trying minimize all the collateral damage and fight part of the people and save part, its not going to work.To "Win" Iraq needed to be destroyed, but noway that happens in today's times. So we removed the regime, and detroyed part of the infastructure, but there are several factions, religions, and regions that are having internal conflicts and also trying to battle us.War is dirty, its inhumane, and it unfortunate. But that is what it is. Look back to WWII we had to drop not one, but two bombs on the Japanese people (not military) to basically end that war. We did not say, we did, awful things. But looking back, it was the right thing to do. It saved millions of lives, not just american lives.So until we take this standpoint, we are going to be twiddling our thumbs over in Iraq.

[akoff 0]

Look war is dirty, and since we have mass media coverage of wars now, unless we hit WWIII all wars are going to be like this. Its the same reason we failed in Vietnam. Once you go into a war trying minimize all the collateral damage and fight part of the people and save part, its not going to work.To "Win" Iraq needed to be destroyed, but noway that happens in today's times. So we removed the regime, and detroyed part of the infastructure, but there are several factions, religions, and regions that are having internal conflicts and also trying to battle us.War is dirty, its inhumane, and it unfortunate. But that is what it is. Look back to WWII we had to drop not one, but two bombs on the Japanese people (not military) to basically end that war. We did not say, we did, awful things. But looking back, it was the right thing to do. It saved millions of lives, not just american lives.So until we take this standpoint, we are going to be twiddling our thumbs over in Iraq.

QFT

[antistuff 0]

QFT

so you're saying we should nuke iraq?im glad we got that cat out of the bag.