The Message Is That It's Okay To Cheat

[seemorenuts 0]

Straight from betfair.comI told them that it was disgusting to sign up Mizzi for their site because he was a confessed cheater.This is what they told me:Thank you for your e-mail.I read your email and appreciate your candid feedback, and you seem like a reasonable person. We obviously knew that this signing would be controversial. Sorel had admitted publicly (before any deal with us was considered) that what he did was unfair to other players. He was a test case for a previously unenforced T&C, of which he has stated he had no clue existed. I think most people from an ethical perspective would have come to the conclusion this wasn't appropriate. Again, as a young person looking back and hearing from his peers he knows that it was wrong. I also realize young kids make mistakes and in many cases do not possess a well developed sense of values/ethics.Many of the top players seem to be slowly forgiving Sorel, but it will take time, he needs to prove himself. As an example, Daniel Negreanu writes here in his blog from EPT Dortmund that he spent time with Sorel every day:http://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poker-jour..._from=&ucat=&Anyway, I don't expect you to change your mind on this, and you have every right to form your own opinion. My plan is to utilize this opportunity to help strengthen the security systems at Betfair Poker, as we have to evolve with the times and utilize all the intelligence we can gather to make certain that online poker is safe for all.One thing is for certain, Sorel will be one of the world's best poker players and he will do it honestly, as that is obviously a key item in our contract.Best regards,Bruce StubbsPoker Director, BetfairSo remember kids, cheat if you are young, and cheat often; you will lose this chance as you mature into an adult.If you are caught, confess--the poker community is forgiving--bonus points if you can get Daniel to write you up in his blog.Remember, terms and conditions are very confusing, they have nothing to do with your intuition. Who knew that what Mizzi did was wrong?If he could do it and survive, you can do it too!If you are talented AND young, extra bonus points! Now you must cheat, because that next site that you haven't yet signed up for will pay you very well once you are banned from the original site that you cheated at--what happened to the concept of sharing blacklists? Huh?After all, what he did wasn't that serious, so do what he did!

[seemorenuts 0]

I'm not aiming this at Mizzi, "I'm sure he's a nice guy and some day I'll have a fun conversation with him about poker."I'm upset at the poker sites and how nothing is done to stop cheating (mostly more serious stuff) mostly by giving this excuse about immaturity and youth.I think any ten year old would know that you can't walk up to a player at a poker tournament and tell him you can take over for him because of your skill. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect confessed cheaters to play for charity; but the best policy for the future is permanent bans (what does betfair mean by proving himself, and how long will that take?)

[yahaw 0]

Good read, I will not be joining betfair anytime soon that's for sure.

[HollywoodAFD 0]

"BetFair" -- Irony

[Kaveros 0]

Wow, great read. ty

[antistuff 0]

when did it become not ok to cheat at poker?

[itsduvalmthafka 0]

when did it become not ok to cheat at poker?

there's nothing worse in the name of poker than a poker cheat. Poker has always had the stain of degeneracy and immorality to it. And that needs to change because of recent attacks against the name of poker. So if you are found cheating at a particular site or in person you should be barred permantly from said establishment and denounced by the poker community. One thing I didn't like about Rounders was that it glorified the cheating aspect and poker in its essence is an honest, legal, and a good natured way to take others people money.Long live poker.

[jmbreslin 0]

Stuff like this just reinforces the common belief that "business ethics" is an oxymoron.

[nockerts 0]

Good read.... This may be a common knowledge around here but I'm new.... How exactly was he cheating??

[jmbreslin 0]

He admitted to taking over someone else's account and playing the remainder of a big online tourney in the place of that player. Well, he admitted it after they got caught.

[MovingIn 0]

Well, it's sort of a reflection of society, which has juvenile laws that wipe or downgrade underage transgressions from your record once you become a legal adult. It's not right, but it's certainly nothing new.

[FourFlusher 0]

Get a rope.

[GrinderMJ 0]

I must be the only who thought both the email and Betfair's stance were perfectly reasonable, and nothing written in this thread would keep me from playing on Betfair (minus the fact I'm not a Euro)

[Kaveros 0]

He admitted to taking over someone else's account and playing the remainder of a big online tourney in the place of that player. Well, he admitted it after they got caught.

Key phrase there. He is scum and no one should give him any form of sponsorship.

[seemorenuts 0]

I must be the only who thought both the email and Betfair's stance were perfectly reasonable, and nothing written in this thread would keep me from playing on Betfair (minus the fact I'm not a Euro)

So how badly did anyone in his position have to cheat in order for you to reject Betfair's email and stance?The following betfair blurb makes me want to puke... he's a star?Imper1um joins Annette 15 as Betfair's latest star signingHe's young, he's unbelievably talented and he's already got the world of online poker buzzing - Canada's Sorel Mizzi (aka Imper1um) has become the newest member of Team Betfair. With WSOPE winner Annette 15 already a Betfair pro, the signing of 'Imper1um' takes us another step closer to creating a team that we believe will be the dominant force in poker for the next decade.Still only 21, Mizzi's list of achievements is impressive. In February '07, Poker Verdict called him the best online poker player on the planet; PocketFives.com also ranked him number one in the online world; and his third place finish in the Irish Open helped him cash $600k in his first year of live poker. Betfair Poker is excited to be able to help this would-be superstar fulfill his potential.Sorel comments; "Overall 2007 was a great year for me and by joining Betfair Poker in 2008 I'm getting in with a team which not only has a great reputation but more importantly, it's going places. With Betfair backing us, I reckon Annette 15 and I have more than enough firepower to take down the big names in the world of tournament poker." Bruce Stubbs, Betfair's Head of Poker, says; "I am proud to add a player like Sorel Mizzi to our team. He is regarded as one of the best online tournament players in the world by many and has the results to prove it. Now that he has joined Team Betfair alongside poker pro Annette Obrestad I honestly believe we have the two best tournament players in the world right now. There is a new world order, look out!"Get ready to shuffle up Hellmuth, Ivey and all the rest - Team Betfair's 'online' stars are poised to take poker to the next level. Sorel Mizzi BiographySorel Mizzi can be found as Imper1um or Zangbezan24 online but this 21 year old from Toronto, Canada is becoming a force to be reckoned with in the live poker world. Sorel started playing Texas Hold'em while he was still at school and his online success once he became a student in 2004 has been incredibly impressive. He's cashed for over $500K on Pokerstars alone and has secured outright victories in the Sunday Warm Up ($80K) and many of the other toughest MTTs. In late 2007, he destroyed the High Stakes HU Showdown on Pokerstars, winning it 4 times in its first 6 outings. Turning 21 last year meant Sorel had the opportunity to create the same impact in the offline scene. A third place finish in the Irish Open where he won over $250k, going deep in the $25K at the Bellagio, and deep in the Main Event at the WSOP all adds up to a cracking start to his offline career.I think Annette should ask for extra pay since she has never cheated.I wonder how much they pay the guy??? as much as a non-cheater?

[seemorenuts 0]

Any predictions on how often we'll hear of cheating scandals in the online poker world? It's been roughly one every month or three for the last year, so if it declines in frequency, does that mean people are cheating less or that they are being more careful about it?People who support the UIGEA are laughing their asses off at how predictable and 'degenerate' the money worshipping heathen is, must we give them another excuse to uphold the ban on poker? What about the Germans, they banned online poker but it wasn't because of religion nor was it because of cheating. I don't even think they resent being drained by online companies that aren't German, since they could start their own poker sites if they wanted to (and legislate that one must play there, provide incentives for doing so, etc.) I can't see Sklansky accusing the Germans of being stupid or shortsighted about this issue, so much for his arguments about how poker improves cognitive skills so much that it would be terrible to live without poker.

[Nimue1995 1]

Mike Matusow admitted to the same exact thing and I don't see widespread calls for his banishment. So is it okay if you're already a big name in poker to cheat? Are you all boycotting Full Tilt now because of it? Get a grip guys. Fact is that, that type of cheating is almost impossible to enforce without a confession or someone ratting on the person. I don't like it particularly but I also see that it's pretty much like the IRS enforcement in that only a small percentage of those who cheat this way will ever be caught. There are far more disturbing things that need attention first. Like the mess at Absolute.

[GrinderMJ 0]

So how badly did anyone in his position have to cheat in order for you to reject Betfair's email and stance?The following betfair blurb makes me want to puke... he's a star?Imper1um joins Annette 15 as Betfair’s latest star signingHe’s young, he’s unbelievably talented and he’s already got the world of online poker buzzing - Canada’s Sorel Mizzi (aka Imper1um) has become the newest member of Team Betfair. With WSOPE winner Annette 15 already a Betfair pro, the signing of ‘Imper1um’ takes us another step closer to creating a team that we believe will be the dominant force in poker for the next decade.Still only 21, Mizzi’s list of achievements is impressive. In February ’07, Poker Verdict called him the best online poker player on the planet; PocketFives.com also ranked him number one in the online world; and his third place finish in the Irish Open helped him cash $600k in his first year of live poker. Betfair Poker is excited to be able to help this would-be superstar fulfill his potential.Sorel comments; "Overall 2007 was a great year for me and by joining Betfair Poker in 2008 I’m getting in with a team which not only has a great reputation but more importantly, it’s going places. With Betfair backing us, I reckon Annette 15 and I have more than enough firepower to take down the big names in the world of tournament poker." Bruce Stubbs, Betfair’s Head of Poker, says; "I am proud to add a player like Sorel Mizzi to our team. He is regarded as one of the best online tournament players in the world by many and has the results to prove it. Now that he has joined Team Betfair alongside poker pro Annette Obrestad I honestly believe we have the two best tournament players in the world right now. There is a new world order, look out!"Get ready to shuffle up Hellmuth, Ivey and all the rest - Team Betfair’s ‘online’ stars are poised to take poker to the next level. umSorel Mizzi BiographySorel Mizzi can be found as Imper1um or Zangbezan24 online but this 21 year old from Toronto, Canada is becoming a force to be reckoned with in the live poker world. Sorel started playing Texas Hold'em while he was still at school and his online success once he became a student in 2004 has been incredibly impressive. He's cashed for over $500K on Pokerstars alone and has secured outright victories in the Sunday Warm Up ($80K) and many of the other toughest MTTs. In late 2007, he destroyed the High Stakes HU Showdown on Pokerstars, winning it 4 times in its first 6 outings. Turning 21 last year meant Sorel had the opportunity to create the same impact in the offline scene. A third place finish in the Irish Open where he won over $250k, going deep in the $25K at the Bellagio, and deep in the Main Event at the WSOP all adds up to a cracking start to his offline career.I think Annette should ask for extra pay since she has never cheated.I wonder how much they fork over to the guy??? as much as a non-cheater?

I'm sure you were perfect your entire life and never made an ethical blunder. Am I right? It's easy to judge people, but it isn't the first time, boatloads of money have led somebody to making an unethical decision. What he did was clearly wrong but everybody who has met him thinks he deserves a second chance, so I do as well. Betfair is going to be investing 100's of thousands of dollars in him, so I'm sure they took their time in evaluating both his play and his character so I assume they believe he's a good person.

[grocery_mony 8]

Funny seemore is taking up the cause against one cheater(Mizzi) but was defending another(Men the master) so strongly?

[seemorenuts 0]

Mike Matusow admitted to the same exact thing and I don't see widespread calls for his banishment. So is it okay if you're already a big name in poker to cheat? Are you all boycotting Full Tilt now because of it? Get a grip guys. Fact is that, that type of cheating is almost impossible to enforce without a confession or someone ratting on the person. I don't like it particularly but I also see that it's pretty much like the IRS enforcement in that only a small percentage of those who cheat this way will ever be caught. There are far more disturbing things that need attention first. Like the mess at Absolute.

I didn't know Matusow cheated, please tell us again how and when.So yeah, I'm boycotting any and all sites that would allow cheaters to stay on, is one guy enough? Are you saying what is correct depends on how many people protest?Oh, and here's my recent email reply from FullTilt over this whole matter:Note that Raymond didn't understand or acknowledge that collusion is only a subset of cheating, nor did he realize that I realize that I sent them text from betfair.On Sat, Feb 23, 2008 at ____ PM, Full Tilt Poker - Support <support@fulltiltpoker.com> wrote:Thank you for contacting Full Tilt Poker Support.Please be advised the email you have attached came from Betfair and notFull Tilt Poker. Rest assured, once a player is found guilty ofcollusion on our site, their account is permanently banned.If there's anything else we can help you with, please feel free to ask.Regards,RaymondSecurity and FraudFull Tilt Poker

[seemorenuts 0]

Funny seemore is taking up the cause against one cheater(Mizzi) but was defending another(Men the master) so strongly?

It is funny if you are drunk or sleepy.The fact is, like I said in the OP (edit: 2nd post), I'm not trying to focus on Mizzi, but how we deal with cheaters in the future if we do basically nothing now.Also, Men has never been caught cheating nor has he confessed to it.Though I have no proof, nor has Men had due process, I later read up on one poster's reference to rgp and stated that I would take DN's word for it.I think an alternative is to have a cheaters' section at any poker site, you can play knowing that they have cheated in the past.This way, when you sit down to play in the non-cheating site, you can feel more comfortable. Get it? Edited February 24, 2008 by seemorenuts

[Nimue1995 1]

Mike was outed here - check these 2 threads on this very forum. http://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poker-foru...hl=Mike+Matusowhttp://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poker-foru...hl=Mike+MatusowMaybe you might want to send something to Full Tilt if you're really feeling anal about it.

[seemorenuts 0]

I'm sure you were perfect your entire life and never made an ethical blunder. Am I right? It's easy to judge people, but it isn't the first time, boatloads of money have led somebody to making an unethical decision. What he did was clearly wrong but everybody who has met him thinks he deserves a second chance, so I do as well. Betfair is going to be investing 100's of thousands of dollars in him, so I'm sure they took their time in evaluating both his play and his character so I assume they believe he's a good person.

So by your logic:A commits B and suffers consequences C.D says C is insufficient.E says D isn't perfect, therefore (fallaciously) C is sufficient; so how do we determine a suitable C?Now substitute any set of people and circumstances you want for those letters, how do you determine ANYTHING?What evidence do you have that A has good character?Was he oblivious to the fact that some 20-30 people were competing for serious money and that he circumvented their right to win?Do you think he would have confessed if no one said anything?Lucky for you, I didn't mention F, the money they are investing in him, now how does that have anything to do with morality?google naturalistic fallacy, you are embarrassing yourself here.It doesn't matter if you and your friends think he deserves a second chance, name that fallacy...

[seemorenuts 0]

Mike was outed here - check these 2 threads on this very forum. http://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poker-foru...hl=Mike+Matusowhttp://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poker-foru...hl=Mike+MatusowMaybe you might want to send something to Full Tilt if you're really feeling anal about it.

Thanks for the links.Of course I'm going to ask Full Tilt about it.I'm not saying it will be simple, but don't you think you as a player deserve the right to know that sites are honestly doing everything they can to prevent and punish cheating when you sit down to play online?I claim that it's your right. Now we just have to raise enough noise to achieve those very reasonable rights. Given that traffic has not fallen off at absolute poker, I am guessing that this will be far from simple and that we are generally viewed as 'degenerates' by the UIGEA supporters. Update after reading the Matusow cheating threads:Oh crap, I am so fed up with this online cheating that I am really, really close to closing all my online poker accounts and buying that Panasonic 'top of the line' shiatsu massage lounger that I've always wanted.

[Nimue1995 1]

I agree that the cheating situation needs to be addressed. All I was saying is that unless a player confesses or someone rats him/her out there is really nothing that the online poker sites can do about this type of cheating. Seems to me that they're really trying to do something about the multiple accounts cheating and also the insider cheating. But what do you do about something that's not under your eyes or control? Require that every player have a webcam so they can be checked to be sure that they're not giving their seat to someone else? That gets into the realm of the ridiculous which is why most poker sites don't do much about enforcing it unless the cheater gets outed. I actually found it pretty funny that Mike Matusow outed himself. Just goes to show what trouble having a big mouth will get you into. Also we have no idea when this occurred so it might well have occurred before Tilt hired him. Since he doesn't name the site, it's going to be tough to prove that he wasn't just lying about cheating either. Anyway, I'd still sit down and play Mike if I ever had that kind of money to waste. But I might be more careful about playing his friends.