Jose Calderon

[Jadaki 0]

You'd rather have Manu than Bosh?

NoI like Bosh's game a lot.

[Jadaki 0]

Bosh is quicker than Duncan and has a better outside shot.

Wrong, Duncan is really solid to 18 feet. Bosh is a lot more inconsistent than Duncan on jumpers.

[jayboogie 0]

I'm not going to comment on Calderon because I really haven't seen him play, but this is dumb. You clearly haven't seen enough Pistons basketball if you are saying this. I've seen Chauncey dismantle the Bulls in every possible way far too many times to think this.

Chauncey's main strength is his ability to score. He was always known as more of a 2 guard than a 1 until he came to Detroit. He can obvioulsy play the point and lead the team, but he is not a pure point guard.

[FCP Bob 1,312]

Wrong, Duncan is really solid to 18 feet. Bosh is a lot more inconsistent than Duncan on jumpers.

Duncan is very solid with his jump shot I won't argue that.Bosh's outside shot has jumped a level this year and he has consistent range out to the 3 point line. I've seen them both play a lot and Bosh would beat Duncan in jump shooting contest right now in my opinion. Bosh's jump shot and foul shooting have both become rock solid this year. 86% from the line for example.With his back to the basket Duncan of course is the far better player.

[jayboogie 0]

Did I ever say anything about how much they score? I don't care about stats at all. The "20 ppg" was about your statement about Calderon going from 13 to 20.Calderon doesn't even get the majority of minutes at the point on his own team, but he's a top 5 point guard and on Baron Davis' and Chauncey Billups' level. Right.Maybe I'll start a thread saying TJ Ford is a top 5 point guard. Do you think if Baron Davis or Chauncey Billups was on the Raptors they'd be splitting minutes with TJ Ford?

Why is it far fetched to think someone that averages 13 ppg on 54% shooting could bump their average to 20 ppg just by taking more shots? If you've seen Calderon play, you would know he scores by creating his own shot and still shoots a high percentage. Nash averages 17.5 ppg, but I'd bet he could average 25 per game if he chose to. Both TJ Ford and Jose Calderon are probably Top 10 PG's in the League. When you have a situation where you have 2 PG's that are this good, minutes are going to be split and overall #'s won't look as impressive from a individual standpoint. Still, most of you probably underestimate the #'s both of them put up. TJ is averaging 12/6.5 in 23 mins a game this year and put up 14/8 in 30 minutes last year. Jose puts up 13/9 in 32 mins a game. That's 25/15 from the pointguard spot, better production than any other pointguard combo in the League easily. It's a unique situation and both players do not get to shine the way they would if they were not on the same team.If Chauncey and Baron were on the Raptors with TJ, they would probably be playing a lot at the 2 while TJ played the 1. Jose and TJ both are pure 1's, but Chauncey and Baron have the ability to play some 2 guard. Splitting minutes would be irrelevant since they would be playing together.

[FCP Bob 1,312]

Do you think if Baron Davis or Chauncey Billups was on the Raptors they'd be splitting minutes with TJ Ford?

They would be on the floor playing the 2 guard a lot with TJ at the point since they are both physical guards who can defend a lot of 2's in the league.I have one question for you Poppy. How many Raptor games did you watch over the last few months while TJ was injured and Calderon was starting ?

[jayboogie 0]

Wrong, Duncan is really solid to 18 feet. Bosh is a lot more inconsistent than Duncan on jumpers.

Bosh has a much better jumper than Duncan. Bosh probably makes 3 times the amount of outside jumpers Duncan does. Bosh takes them routinely as part of his arsenal, Duncan takes them usually only when he's wide open. Duncan's main strength is his back to the basket game. You can go look up Hotspots that will prove this point. Bosh also shoots these outside jumpers at a higher %. Freethrow shooting is not even close as it's a huge weakness for Duncan while it's a strength for Bosh.

[FCP Bob 1,312]

I'd never seen the Hotspots site before but I love it.http://www.nba.com/hotspots/It really does illustrate where players are taking their shots from and where they're making them from and makes it even more obvious that Bosh has the better outside game than Duncan.

[FCP Bob 1,312]

An interesting stat that is available at NBA.com is the Efficiency Stat.NBA.com evaluates all players based on the efficiency formula: ((Points + Rebounds + Assists + Steals + Blocks) - ((Field Goals Att. - Field Goals Made) + (Free Throws Att. - Free Throws Made) + Turnovers)).I sorted all the guards in the NBA for efficiency per 48 minutes and the results are below. http://www.nba.com/statistics/player/Effic...tDD=All%20Teams1. Chris Paul2. Kobe Bryant3. Steve Nash4. Manu Ginobili5. Jose Calderon6. Chauncey Billups7. Deron Williams8. T.J. Ford9. Baron Davis10. Dwyane Wade

[Cappy37 0]

While Poppy is far more dynamic than a typical "Laker's Fan", you have to admit, the concept of a Laker Fan berating another Team's fan for overrating their complimentary players is.. umm...amusing?

[Poppy_Hillis 11]

They would be on the floor playing the 2 guard a lot with TJ at the point since they are both physical guards who can defend a lot of 2's in the league.I have one question for you Poppy. How many Raptor games did you watch over the last few months while TJ was injured and Calderon was starting ?

Enough to know Jose Calderon is not in the same league as those players.You guys are saying Calderon is a top 5 point guard in the league. So it goes Nash, Paul, Williams, then Calderon?Just for the record these are my rankings of point guards:PaulNashWilliamsDavisBillupsArenasKiddParkerCassellHarrisThat's 10, and you still got guys like Bibby and Hinrich. I guess you could put him in that group to be generous. Oh, and I'd put Barbosa in front of him.

[tskillz187 0]

You'd rather have Manu than Bosh?

No. He's just resulted to not making sense at any point about Ginobili and is now making himself look bad in every thread.

I'd argue that Manu is the Spurs best offensive player and that Duncan isn't clearly a superior offensive player to Bosh. I'm not trying to bash Duncan with those comments but that's how highly I think of Manu.Bosh is quicker than Duncan and has a better outside shot. Duncan is a better Post scorer and passer and of course the refs cheat so much for him that it makes him even more effective.

I don't know if Manu is their best offensive player. He's obviously the most complete offensively with finishing at the rim, jump shot, drive, etc. But, most solid 2 guards can say that. Duncan is the best low post threat in the league (is this debateable?) IMO. I don't like when he sits back and shoots jumpers, especially straight on, from the sides where he can bank he's very solid.Bosh's range is better than Duncan's but I'm not sure about consistency. Again from head on his shot is much better, so that goes with foul shooting.I can't name many #2 options that are better scorers than Bosh. If Ginobili is a #2 then he is probably a better scorer, AI/Melo, McGrady, Amare/Nash, Pierce, and I have a mancrush on Josh Howard.But that wasn't my initial point. I don't think every team has a #1 and I certainly don't think every team has a player that is capable of leading their team to an NBA championship. Right now I think the other players on the Raptors are solid enough to win a championship if their #1 player was a little better. I think if they had Amare, Howard, Boozer, Garnett, Duncan, or when healthy Brand and Yao that they could win the championship this yr. That's not a knock on Bosh, but he's behind those bigs. I'm not even saying they can't win it with Bosh but I think he needs to develop more or that Bargnani, Calderon, and Bosh need to be a 3 headed monster, which they aren't right now.

[bigkg 0]

Chauncey's main strength is his ability to score. He was always known as more of a 2 guard than a 1 until he came to Detroit. He can obvioulsy play the point and lead the team, but he is not a pure point guard.

The point guard's role is to run the team, no?Billups has run maybe the most consistently efficient team in the NBA over the past few years.

[tskillz187 0]

An interesting stat that is available at NBA.com is the Efficiency Stat.NBA.com evaluates all players based on the efficiency formula: ((Points + Rebounds + Assists + Steals + Blocks) - ((Field Goals Att. - Field Goals Made) + (Free Throws Att. - Free Throws Made) + Turnovers)).I sorted all the guards in the NBA for efficiency per 48 minutes and the results are below. http://www.nba.com/statistics/player/Effic...tDD=All%20Teams1. Chris Paul2. Kobe Bryant3. Steve Nash4. Manu Ginobili5. Jose Calderon6. Chauncey Billups7. Deron Williams8. T.J. Ford9. Baron Davis10. Dwyane Wade

You have no clue how funny it is that you did this. I think it's hilarious. Hmmm look at Ginobs at #4. (Obv pulled this out earlier in the yr to prove how good Ginobili is)

[FCP Bob 1,312]

Enough to know Jose Calderon is not in the same league as those players.You guys are saying Calderon is a top 5 point guard in the league. So it goes Nash, Paul, Williams, then Calderon?Just for the record these are my rankings of point guards:PaulNashWilliamsDavisBillupsArenasKiddParkerCassellHarrisThat's 10, and you still got guys like Bibby and Hinrich. I guess you could put him in that group to be generous. Oh, and I'd put Barbosa in front of him.

So what you're saying is that you haven't watched any games and are going by reputation alone. Good to know.In my opionion there is a clear top 3 in the NBA at the point guard position and that is Paul, Nash and Williams just like you have it. I think there is a second group that includes players like Billups and Davis that is behind them and I put Calderon in that group. Today I think Billups and Davis are better than Calderon but he's a young player who was a good player before but over the last 30 games or so has been playing at an elite level and he's been doing some things as well or better than any other point guard in the league. If he continues to play at that level there's no doubt that he's one of the best point guards in the league but still behind the top 3.

[Poppy_Hillis 11]

The point guard's role is to run the team, no?Billups has run maybe the most consistently efficient team in the NBA over the past few years.

Thank you. But if he was on the Raptors they would make him move to the 2 guard in favor of Jose Calderon.

[jayboogie 0]

Enough to know Jose Calderon is not in the same league as those players.You guys are saying Calderon is a top 5 point guard in the league. So it goes Nash, Paul, Williams, then Calderon?Just for the record these are my rankings of point guards:PaulNashWilliamsDavisBillupsArenasKiddParkerCassellHarrisThat's 10, and you still got guys like Bibby and Hinrich. I guess you could put him in that group to be generous. Oh, and I'd put Barbosa in front of him.

I said he's Top 10 and that he could potentially be in the Top 5. The main reason why I say this is that Calderon and Ford are both getting better and on the incline. Davis and Billups are veterans and are not going to get any better than they are now. Calderon and Ford are in their 3rd and 4th years respectively. Putting Cassell and Harris in front of Calderon and Ford is a joke. It's debatable whether either is even really a pointguard. Bibby and Hinrich? Please, no team would trade for either of them unless they unloaded a huge contract or gave away spare parts. I'm not saying they're not decent players, but no GM would pick either over Calderon or Ford.Of that list, I would only definitively say Nash, Paul and Williams are better. Arenas I would not consider a pointguard, unless you consider Iverson one as well, which I don't. I'd say Davis and Billups have the edge on Calderon slightly, just based on experience and accomplishments. From a skills standpoint and what each brings to the pointguard spot, it's fairly close and each player has the edge on the other in their respective ways.

[Poppy_Hillis 11]

While Poppy is far more dynamic than a typical "Laker's Fan", you have to admit, the concept of a Laker Fan berating another Team's fan for overrating their complimentary players is.. umm...amusing?

Thank you. I think.There's actually a lot of really good Laker fans. You just can't judge us during the championship years when all the fake ones come out. It's the Cedric Ceballos years, the Chucky Atkins years, and the Kwame Brown years that make the real fans.So you agree that they're overrating Calderon?When have I ever overrated any Laker? Is it because I'd rather have Derek Fisher than any other point guard in the league, or that Robert Horry should be a hall of famer?

[jayboogie 0]

The point guard's role is to run the team, no?Billups has run maybe the most consistently efficient team in the NBA over the past few years.

I said he runs the team fine, but his strength is scoring the ball more than it is being a playmaker and creating for his teammates. You can be more of a scorer than a pure point and still run the team fine. It's not a knock on Billups at all, it's just the way he plays the game.

[Poppy_Hillis 11]

I said he's Top 10 and that he could potentially be in the Top 5. The main reason why I say this is that Calderon and Ford are both getting better and on the incline. Davis and Billups are veterans and are not going to get any better than they are now. Calderon and Ford are in their 3rd and 4th years respectively. Putting Cassell and Harris in front of Calderon and Ford is a joke. It's debatable whether either is even really a pointguard. Bibby and Hinrich? Please, no team would trade for either of them unless they unloaded a huge contract or gave away spare parts. I'm not saying they're not decent players, but no GM would pick either over Calderon or Ford.Of that list, I would only definitively say Nash, Paul and Williams are better. Arenas I would not consider a pointguard, unless you consider Iverson one as well, which I don't. I'd say Davis and Billups have the edge on Calderon slightly, just based on experience and accomplishments. From a skills standpoint and what each brings to the pointguard spot, it's fairly close and each player has the edge on the other in their respective ways.

Well it might just be me, but if you actually play the position of point guard, then you're a point guard. Gilbert Arenas plays point guard, therefore, he's a point guard. Devin Harris plays point guard, therefore, he's a point guard. Iverson does not play point guard, that's the only reason he's not on that list.I would say he's pretty close to Hinrich. Calderon is a bit of a better offensive player, but defense counts too and Calderon isn't even in the same stratosphere as Hinrich there. I will admit that Hinrich has not had a good year, but there's circumstances obviously going on in Chicago right now.

[jayboogie 0]

No. He's just resulted to not making sense at any point about Ginobili and is now making himself look bad in every thread.I don't know if Manu is their best offensive player. He's obviously the most complete offensively with finishing at the rim, jump shot, drive, etc. But, most solid 2 guards can say that. Duncan is the best low post threat in the league (is this debateable?) IMO. I don't like when he sits back and shoots jumpers, especially straight on, from the sides where he can bank he's very solid.Bosh's range is better than Duncan's but I'm not sure about consistency. Again from head on his shot is much better, so that goes with foul shooting.I can't name many #2 options that are better scorers than Bosh. If Ginobili is a #2 then he is probably a better scorer, AI/Melo, McGrady, Amare/Nash, Pierce, and I have a mancrush on Josh Howard.But that wasn't my initial point. I don't think every team has a #1 and I certainly don't think every team has a player that is capable of leading their team to an NBA championship. Right now I think the other players on the Raptors are solid enough to win a championship if their #1 player was a little better. I think if they had Amare, Howard, Boozer, Garnett, Duncan, or when healthy Brand and Yao that they could win the championship this yr. That's not a knock on Bosh, but he's behind those bigs. I'm not even saying they can't win it with Bosh but I think he needs to develop more or that Bargnani, Calderon, and Bosh need to be a 3 headed monster, which they aren't right now.

Fair enough, I see your point. There's no way the Raptors are even close to being a contender right now. If you replaced Bosh with any player in the L, they still would not be good enough to contend though. The Raptors are improving, but definitely not there yet.

[jayboogie 0]

Well it might just be me, but if you actually play the position of point guard, then you're a point guard. Gilbert Arenas plays point guard, therefore, he's a point guard. Devin Harris plays point guard, therefore, he's a point guard. Iverson does not play point guard, that's the only reason he's not on that list.I would say he's pretty close to Hinrich. Calderon is a bit of a better offensive player, but defense counts too and Calderon isn't even in the same stratosphere as Hinrich there. I will admit that Hinrich has not had a good year, but there's circumstances obviously going on in Chicago right now.

If you want to call all of them pointguards, that's fine, but they are all still 2 guards more than they are point guards. They look for their own shots first and pass second. Lebron is more of a pointguard than either of them. Even if you want to include them, Calderon is still better than both by far. Pointguards that actually look to pass first are commodities in the League, because there are not many around. Calderon can make an impact on a game without scoring.Comparing him to Hinrich is just rediculous. Calderon does everything significantly better than Hinrich other than playing defense. Hinrich's D is not amazing either. I'm not even bringing up Calderon's rediculous 5.5 to 1 assist to turnover ratio which is unheard of. What team would want Kirk Hinrich starting on their team if they were looking to compete?

[bigkg 0]

As a Bulls fan I have to chime in and say Hinrich is an overrated defender. He's a good perimeter defender but I have seen him get posted up on by bigger guards (Billups) waaaaay too many times.

[jayboogie 0]

You have no clue how funny it is that you did this. I think it's hilarious. Hmmm look at Ginobs at #4. (Obv pulled this out earlier in the yr to prove how good Ginobili is)

Ginobili has always been underrated and is incredibly efficient. He has a better offensive repetoire, but he is not as valuable as Duncan to their team. It's Duncan's team and nobody would argue that. Even when he was putting up 15 ppg in previous seasons, I felt he was an awesome player. It's not how many points you score, it's the fashion in which you score them that determines how good an offensive player you are. Players like Maggette can score 22 ppg on bad teams, but he wouldn't do the same on a good team.

[Poppy_Hillis 11]

Calderon is still better than both by far.

THAT is funny.Again, he's splitting time on a team that wouldn't make the playoffs in the Western Conference.