Lhe Thought Process

[mikeysong 0]

c/ring the turn with jacks looses a shitload of value in my opinion.

it doesn't change the fact that it's completely possible. the guy just value cr'd the river w/AK buttons. now you want him to only cr overpairs on the flop?

[KramitDaToad 0]

Obviously the standard line is to lead the river, however if the Hero has a good read or history, this is pure sex.If I was the villain I'd quit the Hero for the day right there - his value betting just got crippled

[navybuttons 15]

now you want him to only cr overpairs on the flop?

i wasn't saying that only overpairs should c/r the flop, i was saying that waiting until the turn to c/r w/ JJ is probably leaving money on the table. but as i said, i think c/r the river w/ AK is probably leaving money on the table too.i'm not even really sure what we're discussing any more. every go to the university edwards on campus dr? best movie theater ever.

[mikeysong 0]

i wasn't saying that only overpairs should c/r the flop, i was saying that waiting until the turn to c/r w/ JJ is probably leaving money on the table. but as i said, i think c/r the river w/ AK is probably leaving money on the table too.i'm not even really sure what we're discussing any more. every go to the university edwards on campus dr? best movie theater ever.

what? are you serious? You're a donk*kidding :Dthe theater that's right across from UCI? Next to 24hr/trader joes/jack in the box? I saw There Will Be Blood over there. The theater wasn't amazing imo, i thought it was kinda old. What'd you like about it? Or were you saying that because of their movie selection. I still need to see Nanking

[mikeysong 0]

Obviously the standard line is to lead the river, however if the Hero has a good read or history, this is pure sex.If I was the villain I'd quit the Hero for the day right there - his value betting just got crippled

hahaand WTH IS THAT IN YOUR SIG. THATS CREEPY

[navybuttons 15]

the theater that's right across from UCI? Next to 24hr/trader joes/jack in the box? I saw There Will Be Blood over there. The theater wasn't amazing imo, i thought it was kinda old. What'd you like about it? Or were you saying that because of their movie selection. I still need to see Nanking

yeah, awesome movie selection.i thought nanking would be more graphic. it's still good though.

[Mattnxtc 0]

Kinda want to illustrate the point that we can't just be all like "zomg full house raise

I would hope on this board you would never thing this. You might put pocket pairs in his range, but rarely does he have a fh imo. But like I said before, I think this is so player dependent and wouldnt advise the river c/r as anything but in specific situations. Betting or c/c is such a better line.

[Zach6668 513]

I would hope on this board you would never thing this. You might put pocket pairs in his range, but rarely does he have a fh imo. But like I said before, I think this is so player dependent and wouldnt advise the river c/r as anything but in specific situations. Betting or c/c is such a better line.

You clearly misunderstand my post.

[antistuff 0]

btw

Obviously worked better than great here, but c/r this river is pretty bad imo. Villian betting AJ was retarded regardless of opponent, and he is going to call all of his Ace highs on the river if you bet. River bluffs will also be rare after the turn check, so you pretty much know he has AT-AK, and u check the river....yuk.

i pretty much agree with u, but realize that i get to post a sweet hand with my line.

well i guess thats that.

[Mattnxtc 0]

You clearly misunderstand my post.

No I understand...but I think this hand as others have said, is more of an issue of villain playing the hand badly. If villain shows 88 or something, then victor never posts this.

[Zach6668 513]

No I understand...but I think this hand as others have said, is more of an issue of villain playing the hand badly. If villain shows 88 or something, then victor never posts this.

Villain never has 88 here. Ever.If what you said in your previous post was referencing what you quoted, then you didn't understand my point.I don't expect anyone to have a full house on this board, but I said that to show people that they have to think beyond what their hand is at face value. We all know this, we know not to just stick with that first level thinking. This is just an extreme example of someone having ace high, which is a weak hand at face value, but taking it a level or 2 further, and realizing that his hand is rather strong against villain's range, and playing and adjusting accordingly.Of course, a value bet on the river illustrates the same thinking, but the c/r is something that I found interesting. Obviously it's not a standard play, and never will be, mostly because we should expect AQ, AJ to fold to our c/r in a vacuum. However, with metagame factors, and the fact that hero's line makes no sense, he managed to entice a call, and made 2 bets on the river, with a hand that I'm sure he knew was the best hand.The fact that villain played poorly has nothing to do with our thought process. We (should) play against poor opponents all of the time, it doesn't mean that we can't play to the best of our ability. Beyond that, until the river, everyone says villain should bet the turn/check river with AT, AJ, AQ type hands, and of course, I agree, but it's not the worst play in the world to check, intending to call a river bet, and it's certainly close, especially if villain is tricky, and will make a c/r bluff or semi bluff any portion of the time.Finally, on the river, villain gets checked to again. He can certainly consider checking behind with a weak ace like AT, but AQ beats a few hands that will call this river, and the way hero played it, he basically never has a pair, and villain should expect AK to bet somewhat frequently here, so AQ would think he has the best hand, and will get a call from a couple weaker aces enough to warrant a value bet, imho. Of course, we agree his call of the c/r was horrible, but it's clear why he did it, since hero played his hand so weird, and perhaps he's calling the river for the same reason he checked the turn, being that hero has some bluffy tendancies, although none of that is covered in the original thread.

[Mattnxtc 0]

Zach..thats a strong statement that I dont agree with at all...There are so many factors that we dont know about that could make one play better than the otherwe have to remember that at 30/60 there is so much more metagame and higher level thinking going on. From villians point of view of the hand: Hero 3bet preflop from the sb and only c/c the flop. What range does villain put Hero on at this point? Ax? kx? Qx? pocket pairs? Hero "should" c/r this flop with most over pairs. _______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________So the turn comes as basically another blank based off the line Victor has taken so far: (This is where past history comes in that we dont have.) Victor again checks. What does that mean to the villain? Does Victor shown the ability to c/r turns with strong hands as opposed to on the flop? If so you the villain may want to check marginal hands. This flop is a hand that rarely hits the villain, so Victor "could" choose to wait to the turn with a hand if his range for villain is Ax, Kx, Qx, Jx or pocket pairs. Victor might lose a villain to a flop c/r, turn lead if villain has a hand like he showed in the end. Does Victor have a tendency to bluff bet rivers with Ax? The villain actually got this right imo and was somewhat unlucky that victor showed up with the hand he did. Assuming Victor took the co raise to be a steal and 3bet lighter to get HU...we can put victor on a wider range than just monsters. Does Victor float flops but fold turns ui? If yes, then villain may want to play slower so that he does not loose victorIs villain passive on big streets with marginal made hands? Legitimate question. This is all key information we dont have that could make the play easier.____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________The river bet by the villain is probably spew mainly b/c victor doesnt call with much that the villain can beat and realizing that, he should have folded to victors c/r at this point. But my basic point is that we dont have near enough information, and though it was a sweat river c/r, it is very read and player dependent and had the villain played the hand "better" he bets flop and turn and checks the river and we have a very standard hand. But the villain took a line that lost him the most when he called the river raise.

[Zach6668 513]

Dude, you misread again. I covered all of this. I'm not advocating any particular play, I'm merely showcasing a good thought process.

[MovingIn 0]

I did read the 2p2 thread, and it appears the players in question have some history and know each other somewhat well. Apparently, villain is normally LAG, so that he slowed down on the turn was a bit of a tell. But still, the betting patterns are consistent with a nice PF hand that got no piece of the board.That said, nice c/r for value on the river. Villain checking behind on the turn, after his PF cap and we slowed down the flop with a c/c, gave an indication we weren't facing a draw, and likely a weak unimproved hand trying to buy the pot on the river.I'm with checky and navy in thinking that villain really screwed himself postflop, especially not betting the turn... but I see how posting this hand isn't so much 'omg vnh' as it is an example to illustrate to people how to outplay opponents by reading their betting patterns and putting them on a hand. np Zach.

[Mattnxtc 0]

Dude, you misread again. I covered all of this. I'm not advocating any particular play, I'm merely showcasing a good thought process.

if that was your intent then yes, I took it a bit to far, but I think that anything other than c/c on the river needs to be player dependent and not like a "I read his soul" moment. I think you will agree with that part.

[Zach6668 513]

I'm pretty sure I'd be v-betting AK here more often than I'd check/call with it.However, with everything else in poker, it's obviously player dependent.

[Mattnxtc 0]

Yeah I have issues with river aggression and generally will sacrifice a bet for a cheaper showdown...not a good thing probably, but thats my tendency and I always end up calling if I get raised.

[bigcoled 1]

It's very advanced to make the raise on the river as a value play... def not standard... this guy is def a lhe monster...