.. Combidraw

[AimHigher 0]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (9 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)Button (t1940)SB (t1390)BB (t610)UTG (t340)UTG+1 (t2935)MP1 (t1460)MP2 (t1330)MP3 (t1185)Hero (t2310)Preflop: Hero is CO with 9, 7. UTG calls t30, UTG+1 calls t30, 1 fold, MP2 calls t30, 1 fold, Hero calls t30, 1 fold, SB completes, BB checks.Flop: (t180) 7, 5, J(6 players)SB bets t30, BB folds, UTG raises to t310, UTG+1 calls t310, MP2 folds, Hero raises to t2280, SB calls t1330 (All-In), UTG+1 calls t1970.Turn: (t6410) 5(4 players, 1 all-in)River: (t6410) Q(4 players, 1 all-in)Final Pot: t6410$1.75 18 man, table has the typical mix of stations and tight passive players.I am prepared to limp in LP in these multiway pots because 99% of the time there is not going to be a raise behind. Thoughts on flop action?Here was my thought process: After UTG+1 calls, I am putting him on a jack. I decided to ship as I think any 7, any 9 or any club will give me the best of it. I was a little surprised when the SB overcalled my shove after checking the flop. After he called UTG+1 tanked and called.

[jmbreslin 0]

That's a bit crazy for my taste. You have 3 players in ahead of you already on a flush draw board, so your club outs may be no good at all. Also, with a big raise and call in front you could already be facing a flopped set, in which case your 9 outs aren't good and your two 7 outs are questionable. So although you have 16 potential outs, very few of them may actually be good.

[MovingIn 0]

PF call is okay.The repop shove after the overcall of the shortstack all-in was way loose, though. All you have is middle pair and a flush draw. Sets definitely call down and bigger flush draws may call down. And that discounts what you're already up against up front. If you're shoving with fold equity in mind, I'm not seeing where you have it.

[sactownjoey 0]

That's a bit crazy for my taste. You have 3 players in ahead of you already on a flush draw board, so your club outs may be no good at all. Also, with a big raise and call in front you could already be facing a flopped set, in which case your 9 outs aren't good and your two 7 outs are questionable. So although you have 16 potential outs, very few of them may actually be good.

With 6 players to the flop and all the action, there is no way I think my FD is any good. I don't think JJ is realistic or someone would have raised pf with it but two-pair w/a J is definitely possible so a 9 for two pair is probably no good. A set of 7 (meaning none left for you to draw to) or 5 are possible.Basically what jm said, there is way too much action for you to reasonably think your hand is any good. Oh, and you have ~77 BB before the flop...wtf are you doing going broke here?

[AimHigher 0]

With 6 players to the flop and all the action, there is no way I think my FD is any good. I don't think JJ is realistic or someone would have raised pf with it but two-pair w/a J is definitely possible so a 9 for two pair is probably no good. A set of 7 (meaning none left for you to draw to) or 5 are possible.Basically what jm said, there is way too much action for you to reasonably think your hand is any good. Oh, and you have ~77 BB before the flop...wtf are you doing going broke here?

I think people grossly overestimate the play in these tournaments.I remember when I first started playing I would make laydowns that would be 100% correct in tougher games, only to discover that 75% of the time I thought I was behind, I was actually ahead. People stack off ridiculously light in these games, especially in the early stages.I have since made an adjustment specifically for these games, so my play may seem more reckless than it actually is. Also, you will often see people limping in with a wide range of very trashy hands, it is far more likely for them to have picked up a weak jack than a set. As played, SB is check-folding 99% of the time, and I have a great deal of fold equity from UTG+1. You must also realize that any competent villain would raise a set, this board is very drawy and he cannot afford to let players in behind so cheaply. It is the fact he did not raise that suggested he probably had a good, but not great hand.Results were: the short stack UTG had KK, UTG+1 had JT and SB had J6. I made my flush with the queen and took down the pot.

[copernicus 0]

Without reading other responses, I dont think Id push here. there is a ton of limping preflop, the flop comes two tone with a J, and gets a donk bet, raise and call before it gets to you. There can only be so many overpairs and TPGK hands, so I think there is a major risk that there is a set (which youre a 3:1 dog to generally) and/or a higher club draw out there (so youre drawing nearly dead). I would flat the flop and see what happens on the turn. Since the turn is pretty much a blank (yes it does give you boat possibilities but it could compete a boat or give higher boat possibilities), I would see what kind of action there is, and discount my flush outs fairly heavily.Edit after seeing results: I think there is a lot of results oriented thinking in your analysis. If one of villains is an overpair and the other a higher flush draw youre a huge dog, and if one is an overpair and the other a set your in a little bit better spot but still -EV. You had close to the best distribution of opponents hands you could hope for with the two big stacks duplicating each others outs and no flush draw, and while you were an equity favorite when the money went in against the actual hands, I dont think youll see that perfect storm of villains very often.

[jmbreslin 0]

I think people grossly overestimate the play in these tournaments.

You must also realize that any competent villain would raise a set, this board is very drawy and he cannot afford to let players in behind so cheaply. It is the fact he did not raise that suggested he probably had a good, but not great hand.

Can't have it both ways, Aim. In one sentence you rationalize your risky play by claiming low quality opposition, but then in another sentence you rationalize your play by referencing what a competent villain would do. It's one or the other.I think your rationalization is definitely results-oriented. The clear consensus amongst the people who have responded is that your push was a bad play but you're disagreeing with us based on the fact that it worked out for you because you were lucky enough to get in against a collection of bad players. More often than not you'll bust out or get crippled in this kind of situation.

[sactownjoey 0]

Can't have it both ways, Aim. In one sentence you rationalize your risky play by claiming low quality opposition, but then in another sentence you rationalize your play by referencing what a competent villain would do. It's one or the other.I think your rationalization is definitely results-oriented. The clear consensus amongst the people who have responded is that your push was a bad play but you're disagreeing with us based on the fact that it worked out for you because you were lucky enough to get in against a collection of bad players. More often than not you'll bust out or get crippled in this kind of situation.

Exactly. Brag post.

[AimHigher 0]

I think your rationalization is definitely results-oriented. The clear consensus amongst the people who have responded is that your push was a bad play but you're disagreeing with us based on the fact that it worked out for you because you were lucky enough to get in against a collection of bad players. More often than not you'll bust out or get crippled in this kind of situation.

Ok, the general consensus is that I overplayed my hand. I will need to reread the posts in this thread to make sure I understand thoroughly why this was wrong so I don't make this mistake in the future.By the time it gets to me I have a min donk bet, an over shove from a shorty, and just a call from another player. My thoughts were that both the shorty and the caller had made hands, I figured I was basically flipping with a pair and I could create dead money by shoving on the caller.Obviously, what I didn't take into consideration is the fact that a lot of my outs could be dead, possibly even all of them.

[jmbreslin 0]

Obviously, what I didn't take into consideration is the fact that a lot of my outs could be dead, possibly even all of them.

Just a small point...

[AimHigher 0]

Just a small point...

But easily remembered for the next time!