New Challenge ( Tourney Style )

[GrinderMJ 0]

this was the second hand at this table. so no info whatsoever. PokerStars Game #25432840039: Tournament #142279625, $3.00+$0.30 Hold'em No Limit - Level XXII (1500/3000) - 2009/02/28 4:45:23 GMT [2009/02/27 23:45:23 ET]Table '142279625 102' 9-max Seat #3 is the buttonSeat 1: MrCasino2009 (18051 in chips) Seat 2: Jackerzg (174919 in chips) Seat 3: billythe1kid (38413 in chips) Seat 4: seat3ismine (38901 in chips) Seat 5: pontoonman (21260 in chips) Seat 6: z_hotmama (153475 in chips) Seat 7: borlor (8369 in chips) Seat 8: dPiero10 (20472 in chips) Seat 9: annodv (224990 in chips) MrCasino2009: posts the ante 375Jackerzg: posts the ante 375billythe1kid: posts the ante 375seat3ismine: posts the ante 375pontoonman: posts the ante 375z_hotmama: posts the ante 375borlor: posts the ante 375dPiero10: posts the ante 375annodv: posts the ante 375seat3ismine: posts small blind 1500pontoonman: posts big blind 3000*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to seat3ismine [Td Ah]z_hotmama: folds borlor: folds dPiero10: folds annodv: raises 4225 to 7225MrCasino2009: folds Jackerzg: calls 7225billythe1kid: folds seat3ismine: ?????????

Fist pump shove. Ahead of the openers range and the callers almost assuredly, tons of money in the pot already, shortstacked etc.

This hand came up last night in the 11 cubed. I'm curious as to if I played this way too passively or not. Villain hasn't opened a pot once, I've been with him for about 2.5-3 orbits. We're approaching the money bubble, about 115 were left with 99 getting paid.Is this line ok? Or did I butcher it?PokerStars Game #25469179156: Tournament #142279591, $10+$1 Hold'em No Limit - Level XIV (800/1600) - 2009/02/28 23:01:26 ETTable '142279591 93' 9-max Seat #9 is the buttonSeat 1: riskaversive (92996 in chips) Seat 2: xTomServoX (75060 in chips) Seat 4: jotibo (50110 in chips) Seat 5: RealMafi (26000 in chips) Seat 6: Budambe (54286 in chips) Seat 7: benza13 (145854 in chips) Seat 8: PaTcRaZy (16999 in chips) Seat 9: SHADY_BILLY (68254 in chips) riskaversive: posts the ante 150xTomServoX: posts the ante 150jotibo: posts the ante 150RealMafi: posts the ante 150Budambe: posts the ante 150benza13: posts the ante 150PaTcRaZy: posts the ante 150SHADY_BILLY: posts the ante 150riskaversive: posts small blind 800xTomServoX: posts big blind 1600*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to xTomServoX [Jc Jd]jotibo: folds RealMafi: folds Budambe: raises 2400 to 4000benza13: calls 4000PaTcRaZy: folds SHADY_BILLY: folds riskaversive: folds xTomServoX: calls 2400*** FLOP *** [2d 6h 2s]xTomServoX: bets 9000Budambe: raises 11800 to 20800benza13: folds xTomServoX: folds Uncalled bet (11800) returned to BudambeBudambe collected 32000 from pot*** SUMMARY ***Total pot 32000 | Rake 0 Board [2d 6h 2s]Seat 1: riskaversive (small blind) folded before FlopSeat 2: xTomServoX (big blind) folded on the FlopSeat 4: jotibo folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 5: RealMafi folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 6: Budambe collected (32000)Seat 7: benza13 folded on the FlopSeat 8: PaTcRaZy folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 9: SHADY_BILLY (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Yikes, this one is realllllllllllll rough, you have to 3 ball pre here, benza can flat semi wide because of how deep he is, although not too wide because the effective stacks aren't THAt deep. Still tho, 3 bet pre and get it in vs. either of them is my default. Also, 2-3 orbits for sure isn't enough information that somebody is playing tight, barring some exceptions. FLop is like real bad, and like kind of outlines a big problem a lot of people have. Well maybe not, I'm not sure if you're plan was to bet/fold the flop vs. a raise? If you bet that flop without a plan it's a fairly huge error. If it was I think it's pretty bad since a lot of people overvalue hands like 55-1010 here, and occasionally even spazzing out with overs etc. I don't really think bet/folding is a good flop line because you get bluffed off the best hand a lot and you're turning a super strong hand into a bluff. The only time I'd lead this flop (I'd almost never get to the flop this way tho) is because I wanted to induce somebody to raise/shove with a worse pair/bluffs etc. Not a fan of this one.

No reads. I just doubled JJ to AK a few hands earlier.Poker Stars $25.00+$2.50 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t3500/t7000 Blinds + t700 - 9 players - View hand 59286The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History ConverterMP2: t215018 M = 12.80CO: t162802 M = 9.69BTN: t187234 M = 11.14SB: t77358 M = 4.60BB: t88622 M = 5.28UTG: t185863 M = 11.06UTG+1: t179221 M = 10.67UTG+2: t279531 M = 16.64Hero (MP1): t329028 M = 19.59Pre Flop: (t16800) Hero is MP1 with T T 3 folds, Hero raises to t18125, 1 fold, CO raises to t162102 all in, Hero ????

snap call

[armen13 0]

line check for this drawy board? Their stacks are shallow. We are 18 players and 9 get paidPokerStars Game #25686356279: Tournament #144064159, $100+$9 Hold'em No Limit - Level X (300/600) - 2009/03/06 22:34:16 ETTable '144064159 3' 9-max Seat #8 is the buttonSeat 1: armen13 (27363 in chips) Seat 2: djLongtime (26291 in chips) Seat 3: Y2JKID (10747 in chips) Seat 4: kobsame (12630 in chips) Seat 5: xxjondxx (27454 in chips) Seat 6: Momheno (51120 in chips) Seat 7: dirkdigler (12325 in chips) Seat 8: 00psiedaisy (28680 in chips) Seat 9: THEDUTCH4141 (24544 in chips) armen13: posts the ante 50djLongtime: posts the ante 50Y2JKID: posts the ante 50kobsame: posts the ante 50xxjondxx: posts the ante 50Momheno: posts the ante 50dirkdigler: posts the ante 5000psiedaisy: posts the ante 50THEDUTCH4141: posts the ante 50THEDUTCH4141: posts small blind 300armen13: posts big blind 600*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to armen13 [8s 7h]djLongtime: folds Y2JKID: folds kobsame: raises 985 to 1585xxjondxx: folds Momheno: folds dirkdigler: calls 158500psiedaisy: folds THEDUTCH4141: folds armen13: calls 985*** FLOP *** [9c Ts 6s]armen13: checks kobsame: checks dirkdigler: bets 1800armen13: raises 3600 to 5400kobsame: folds dirkdigler: folds Uncalled bet (3600) returned to armen13armen13 collected 9105 from potarmen13: doesn't show hand *** SUMMARY ***Total pot 9105 | Rake 0 Board [9c Ts 6s]Seat 1: armen13 (big blind) collected (9105)Seat 2: djLongtime folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 3: Y2JKID folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 4: kobsame folded on the FlopSeat 5: xxjondxx folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 6: Momheno folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 7: dirkdigler folded on the FlopSeat 8: 00psiedaisy (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 9: THEDUTCH4141 (small blind) folded before Flop

[The Phoenix 0]

snap call

Agree with Grinder on all 3 hands. The TT is a snap call because with all the dead money already in the pot (your raise+blinds and antes) you only need 42% equity vs his range to call. If you put his range at 6% (which is a tight range) , TT is 48% vs that range which is obviously a clear call.

[The Phoenix 0]

line check for this drawy board? Their stacks are shallow. We are 18 players and 9 get paidPokerStars Game #25686356279: Tournament #144064159, $100+$9 Hold'em No Limit - Level X (300/600) - 2009/03/06 22:34:16 ETTable '144064159 3' 9-max Seat #8 is the buttonSeat 1: armen13 (27363 in chips) Seat 2: djLongtime (26291 in chips) Seat 3: Y2JKID (10747 in chips) Seat 4: kobsame (12630 in chips) Seat 5: xxjondxx (27454 in chips) Seat 6: Momheno (51120 in chips) Seat 7: dirkdigler (12325 in chips) Seat 8: 00psiedaisy (28680 in chips) Seat 9: THEDUTCH4141 (24544 in chips) armen13: posts the ante 50djLongtime: posts the ante 50Y2JKID: posts the ante 50kobsame: posts the ante 50xxjondxx: posts the ante 50Momheno: posts the ante 50dirkdigler: posts the ante 5000psiedaisy: posts the ante 50THEDUTCH4141: posts the ante 50THEDUTCH4141: posts small blind 300armen13: posts big blind 600*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to armen13 [8s 7h]djLongtime: folds Y2JKID: folds kobsame: raises 985 to 1585xxjondxx: folds Momheno: folds dirkdigler: calls 158500psiedaisy: folds THEDUTCH4141: folds armen13: calls 985*** FLOP *** [9c Ts 6s]armen13: checks kobsame: checks dirkdigler: bets 1800armen13: raises 3600 to 5400kobsame: folds dirkdigler: folds Uncalled bet (3600) returned to armen13armen13 collected 9105 from potarmen13: doesn't show hand *** SUMMARY ***Total pot 9105 | Rake 0 Board [9c Ts 6s]Seat 1: armen13 (big blind) collected (9105)Seat 2: djLongtime folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 3: Y2JKID folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 4: kobsame folded on the FlopSeat 5: xxjondxx folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 6: Momheno folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 7: dirkdigler folded on the FlopSeat 8: 00psiedaisy (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 9: THEDUTCH4141 (small blind) folded before Flop

I think this hand is kind of related to TJ's thread. I would flat and allow the player to fire again on the turn. They aren't folding sets, 2 pair, overpair hands being that shallow. They aren't folding 2 overs and flush draw, or a pair and flush draw. They are only folding air and pair hands. There is really nothing to protect your hand against. Let them them keep firing.

[WhatArunAA 0]

I think this hand is kind of related to TJ's thread. I would flat and allow the player to fire again on the turn. They aren't folding sets, 2 pair, overpair hands being that shallow. They aren't folding 2 overs and flush draw, or a pair and flush draw. They are only folding air and pair hands. There is really nothing to protect your hand against. Let them them keep firing.

fold pre

[donk4life 34]

Thanks for the input HS and GMJ, the more I look back on the hand the more I hate it.

[GrinderMJ 0]

fold pre

Ya, this for sure. the effective stacks are only 20 bbs deep, you're definitely not going to flop enough big hands to overcome all the times you're gonna have to c/f a 3 way flop. Not to mention all the times you make second pair, weak top pair and are behind. I'm not sure anybody on the planet hand reads well enough to make this a profitable call pre.

[armen13 0]

Ya, this for sure. the effective stacks are only 20 bbs deep, you're definitely not going to flop enough big hands to overcome all the times you're gonna have to c/f a 3 way flop. Not to mention all the times you make second pair, weak top pair and are behind. I'm not sure anybody on the planet hand reads well enough to make this a profitable call pre.

I realize this is a -cEV call pre and ordinarily I am not in the habit of making such calls. Situation was a bit different here. I thought it might be +$EV having the extra chips on the bubble, plus two separate stacks of 20bbs involved to pay off if hit big. May have still been a mistake though as I am not sure how to calculate implied $EV of a hand like this. What about post, any thoughts?

[Vick12 0]

I realize this is a -cEV call pre and ordinarily I am not in the habit of making such calls. Situation was a bit different here. I thought it might be +$EV having the extra chips on the bubble, plus two separate stacks of 20bbs involved to pay off if hit big. May have still been a mistake though as I am not sure how to calculate implied $EV of a hand like this. What about post, any thoughts?

I agree w/ TJ and GMJ...fold preflooop.Postfloop I think a call is much better. It gives kobsame a chance to get out of line with a squeeze and if he folds then on the turn we can give dirkdigler a chance to hang himself.

[armen13 0]

I think this hand is kind of related to TJ's thread. I would flat and allow the player to fire again on the turn. They aren't folding sets, 2 pair, overpair hands being that shallow. They aren't folding 2 overs and flush draw, or a pair and flush draw. They are only folding air and pair hands. There is really nothing to protect your hand against. Let them them keep firing.

This is the reason I posted, wondered how much value I left on the table. Thing is, there are so many bad looking cards that could come up here where I could get bluffed off the hand. Do we keep calling if a spade comes off (assuming he still bets), do we call if an 8 a Jack comes or if the board pairs? So what should be our plan?

[Vick12 0]

This is the reason I posted, wondered how much value I left on the table. Thing is, there are so many bad looking cards that could come up here where I could get bluffed off the hand. Do we keep calling if a spade comes off (assuming he still bets), do we call if an 8 a Jack comes or if the board pairs? So what should be our plan?

With the villains both having 20 bb stacks, I don't there is a card that hits the turn that I get "bluffed off of". We already have 5 bb's invested, so if we check to him again on the turn and he fires, I think regardless of the card (spade, 8, jack, board pair) we get it in right there. I just don't think either villain is deep enough for you to be to worried about them catching. If they do catch and we lose, we still have a very workable 15k stack here.

[armen13 0]

With the villains both having 20 bb stacks, I don't there is a card that hits the turn that I get "bluffed off of". We already have 5 bb's invested, so if we check to him again on the turn and he fires, I think regardless of the card (spade, 8, jack, board pair) we get it in right there. I just don't think either villain is deep enough for you to be to worried about them catching. If they do catch and we lose, we still have a very workable 15k stack here.

ok fair enough. So call and let him keep firing no matter what comes up pretty much. Thanks for the feedback peoples.

[The Phoenix 0]

This is the reason I posted, wondered how much value I left on the table. Thing is, there are so many bad looking cards that could come up here where I could get bluffed off the hand. Do we keep calling if a spade comes off (assuming he still bets), do we call if an 8 a Jack comes or if the board pairs? So what should be our plan?

I agree with Vick12. We're going with our hand. If you just flat the flop you leave him with one PSB. He should be jamming the turn unless he was just taking stab at the pot and is giving it up. If he puts out a bet of more than 1/3 of his stack or more then we get it in. If a blank comes on the turn and he bets less than 1/3 of his stack I may just flat again (I usually read that bet as weakness, especially when we have the Nuts) so he may 3 barrel bluff the river. I agree with the fold pre as well, but wanted to concentrate on your postflop question. You hear a lot of conflicting views as to what implied odds you need to call pre. Some say 10:1, some say 15 to 1, and I think its AJKhoosier who has said 20 to 1 (in set mining situations). I guess we want them to have about a 30bb here. When I'm getting the discount in the BB I'm guilty of this mistake too.

[silkyjonson 1]

Stage #1522995005 Tourney ID 4120588 Holdem Multi Normal Tournament No Limit $60 - 2009-03-11 21:59:35 (ET)Table: 4 (Real Money) Seat #5 is the dealerSeat 1 - TOOHOTTOTROT ($6545 in chips)Seat 2 - MIG_NET ($5830 in chips)Seat 3 - PAIDINFULL88 ($4050 in chips)Seat 4 - MUCKTHENUTS ($3960 in chips)Seat 5 - EL_PIBE10 ($4735 in chips)Seat 6 - PHILBORT ($4315 in chips)Seat 7 - AJKHOOSIER1 ($7171 in chips)Seat 8 - MENDIETA19 ($4425 in chips)Seat 9 - WEGONNARIDE ($3124 in chips)PHILBORT - Posts small blind $30AJKHOOSIER1 - Posts big blind $60*** POCKET CARDS ***Dealt to EL_PIBE10 [Kc Ac]MENDIETA19 - FoldsWEGONNARIDE - FoldsTOOHOTTOTROT - Raises $180 to $180MIG_NET - FoldsPAIDINFULL88 - FoldsMUCKTHENUTS - FoldsEL_PIBE10 - Raises $480 to $480PHILBORT - FoldsAJKHOOSIER1 - FoldsTOOHOTTOTROT - Calls $300*** FLOP *** [Ad Qc Jd]TOOHOTTOTROT - ChecksEL_PIBE10 - Checks*** TURN *** [Ad Qc Jd] [7s]TOOHOTTOTROT - Bets $625EL_PIBE10 - Calls $625*** RIVER *** [Ad Qc Jd 7s] [9s]TOOHOTTOTROT - Bets $1420EL_PIBE10 - ???From UB 1k, this guy had been playing really fast 3 betting a ton thoughts on all streets welcomed. I have no idea if he is a reg or random

[armen13 0]

Stage #1522995005 Tourney ID 4120588 Holdem Multi Normal Tournament No Limit $60 - 2009-03-11 21:59:35 (ET)Table: 4 (Real Money) Seat #5 is the dealerSeat 1 - TOOHOTTOTROT ($6545 in chips)Seat 2 - MIG_NET ($5830 in chips)Seat 3 - PAIDINFULL88 ($4050 in chips)Seat 4 - MUCKTHENUTS ($3960 in chips)Seat 5 - EL_PIBE10 ($4735 in chips)Seat 6 - PHILBORT ($4315 in chips)Seat 7 - AJKHOOSIER1 ($7171 in chips)Seat 8 - MENDIETA19 ($4425 in chips)Seat 9 - WEGONNARIDE ($3124 in chips)PHILBORT - Posts small blind $30AJKHOOSIER1 - Posts big blind $60*** POCKET CARDS ***Dealt to EL_PIBE10 [Kc Ac]MENDIETA19 - FoldsWEGONNARIDE - FoldsTOOHOTTOTROT - Raises $180 to $180MIG_NET - FoldsPAIDINFULL88 - FoldsMUCKTHENUTS - FoldsEL_PIBE10 - Raises $480 to $480PHILBORT - FoldsAJKHOOSIER1 - FoldsTOOHOTTOTROT - Calls $300*** FLOP *** [Ad Qc Jd]TOOHOTTOTROT - ChecksEL_PIBE10 - Checks*** TURN *** [Ad Qc Jd] [7s]TOOHOTTOTROT - Bets $625EL_PIBE10 - Calls $625*** RIVER *** [Ad Qc Jd 7s] [9s]TOOHOTTOTROT - Bets $1420EL_PIBE10 - ???From UB 1k, this guy had been playing really fast 3 betting a ton thoughts on all streets welcomed. I have no idea if he is a reg or random

I just looked him up, he seems to be a loosing player on all sites with low volume. If he was a reg this would be a clear fold on the river. This is a really ugly board. Your flop check may have induced some air into betting, but there are many hands in his range here that have you beat. If you had more history with him, you could make a better decision, but I think on balance it's a fold.

[armen13 0]

this thread has become so.....

[silkyjonson 1]

this thread has become so.....

agreed, we need to keep this thread going some great minds here and I would hate to lose the discussion.

[jkalib 0]

I'm going to post this in stages. I think this hand shows a real leak in my game. My first questions are whether I need to raise more pre and whether I need to reraise when the button pops me. Then, on flop, my natural inclination is to just shut it down.PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $3.00+$0.30 Tournament, 15/30 Blinds (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comHero (BB) (t3250)UTG (t4845)UTG+1 (t3380)MP1 (t3460)MP2 (t2825)MP3 (t2610)CO (t395)Button (t5225)SB (t1010)Hero's M: 72.22Preflop: Hero is BB with Q , Q 2 folds, MP1 calls t30, 2 folds, CO calls t30, Button calls t30, SB calls t15, Hero bets t160, 1 fold, CO calls t130, Button raises to t290, 1 fold, Hero calls t130, CO calls t130Flop: (t930) 9 , 7 , A (3 players)Hero?

[Vick12 0]

I'm going to post this in stages. I think this hand shows a real leak in my game. My first questions are whether I need to raise more pre and whether I need to reraise when the button pops me. Then, on flop, my natural inclination is to just shut it down.PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $3.00+$0.30 Tournament, 15/30 Blinds (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comHero (BB) (t3250)UTG (t4845)UTG+1 (t3380)MP1 (t3460)MP2 (t2825)MP3 (t2610)CO (t395)Button (t5225)SB (t1010)Hero's M: 72.22Preflop: Hero is BB with Q , Q 2 folds, MP1 calls t30, 2 folds, CO calls t30, Button calls t30, SB calls t15, Hero bets t160, 1 fold, CO calls t130, Button raises to t290, 1 fold, Hero calls t130, CO calls t130Flop: (t930) 9 , 7 , A (3 players)Hero?

The preflop raise is good imo. When button repops this is GREAT spot for you because would ANYONE play AA or KK that way? I highly highly highly doubt it, so I would jam preflop after his raise for 2 reasons.1st...it's a $3.30 and he's going to call w/ like 77 or something.2nd...if he does have something like AK, then we are giving him some fold equity...not that he takes it...but still...I just get it in preflop.As for flop play...gah. I mean...maybbbbbbe he has AK, AJ, or AQ (less likely since we have blockers) but I think it's hard to give him credit for and ace. Again...this smells a lot like 66-10's tbh.*edit...just noticed a 7 hit the flop. I am speaking strictly preflop ranges earlier when I put him on a mid pair.

[Chet Chetterson 0]

I've seen people at micro limits who slow play AA that badly, so it could be that. I don't think they can do it with K though. If you are going to make a move it's 4-bet shove like Vick suggested. It's definitely harder to make the move on the flop.Missed that CO called before, you absolutely have to slow down in first position, imo.

[jkalib 0]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $3.00+$0.30 Tournament, 15/30 Blinds (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com Hero (BB) (t3250)UTG (t4845)UTG+1 (t3380)MP1 (t3460)MP2 (t2825)MP3 (t2610)CO (t395)Button (t5225)SB (t1010)Hero's M: 72.22 Preflop: Hero is BB with Q , Q 2 folds, MP1 calls t30, 2 folds, CO calls t30, Button calls t30, SB calls t15, Hero bets t160, 1 fold, CO calls t130, Button raises to t290, 1 fold, Hero calls t130, CO calls t130 Flop: (t930) 9 , 7 , A (3 players)Hero checks, CO checks, Button checks Turn: (t930) 3 (3 players)Hero checks, CO checks, Button checks River: (t930) 5 (3 players)Hero bets t330, 1 fold, Button calls t330Total pot: t1590You sir, are good at teh pokers. Here is my thought process. I didn't reraise preflop because we are pretty deep and because I can get away from it if an ace or a king hits. But that is what I think one of my leaks is - if an ace or king hits I'm done.

[Vtlaxer09 4]

heh.... i mean.. its Aces so often here... lol... shoving pre is fine... i guess... i like set mining though since its sooo multiway... idki c/fold flop.

[Chet Chetterson 0]

You sir, are good at teh pokers. Here is my thought process. I didn't reraise preflop because we are pretty deep and because I can get away from it if an ace or a king hits. But that is what I think one of my leaks is - if an ace or king hits I'm done.

You are early in a tournament, and you have a deep stack for this early in the tourney. If you think you can outplay people later, I can't blame you for slowing down later. Ax is usually a large part of ranges (especially for donkeys who play crappy A-rags). I think you need a read post flop to be more agressive.How the hand ended, yes you are play donkeys and can probably take advantage of it for now on.

[Vick12 0]

heh.... i mean.. its Aces so often here... lol... shoving pre is fine... i guess... i like set mining though since its sooo multiway... idki c/fold flop.

Vt...u really think this is aces here? I mean...it went, limp, limp, and THEN the button limps. I can see MAYBE the original limper having aces but I can't ever imagine that in a THREE DOLLAR MTT, guys are limping aces on button AFTER 2 other limpers. In higher buy in mtt's I could MAYBE see the 2nd limper trying to induce a squeeze but even at those buy in's I never expect to see aces from the 3rd limper. I could be swayed I guess, but I would need to hear why.Also...did I miss it or did you not post results?*edit Also, the blinds are sooooo small right now which makes it even more unlikely someone is "trapping" aces here. Even the biggest goobers are sitting there with aces on the button and they immediately find the raise button.

[Chet Chetterson 0]

Limp is to trap. Then when donk sees the larger than normal raise he will donk min bet to try and induce the shove. If it was aces I think the button would want the 4-bet push fold from the CO. I don't think he expected call-call.People still take this line in the micros as bad as it is, mainly because people still tilt-ship after the min raise.