iq and poker

[calbear11 0]

I have read plenty about the important traits successful poker players possess, i.e. steam control, competitive nature, etc...One of the most obvious traits all the best poker players certainly have is a high IQ. Though always implicit in most discussions of poker aptitude and traits that the pros possess, I have never read anything specifically talking about general intelligence. So I have a few questions:Keeping all other attributes constant, how much of a factor is a player's IQ while playing? Can you really imagine anyone playing at the highest levels without basically a genius IQ?Keeping all other attributes constant, how good of a measure would someone's general intelligence be for measuring their poker aptitude?I understand that any measure of intelligence (including generic IQ tests) is a rather suspect notion. But you get the idea...I don't post on here very much but I read all the time, so I was curious about the board's thoughts on this subject.

[blueodum 0]

Yes I can imagine players playing at the highest level without a genius IQ, but I would think that nearly every top pro would score well above normal on an IQ test."People skills", such as reading your opponent and sussing out what is happening in a hand by intuition, as well as logic, is an important element of top-class play. There are a lot of people who have these people skills in abundance who wouldn't necessarily qualify for mensa.

[JFarrell20 1]

I'd be willing to bet that most, if not all of the pro's who 'regularly' cash have an IQ in excess of 130, easily.I think there's a huge link between IQ and poker. Look at Stu Ungar...Jesus Ferguson...Paul Phillips...those guys probably all score above 150. Genius level is typically defined as 140+I'd love to see what some of the pro's score. Now, granted, it's not a direct relationship. That is to say...one whose IQ is 160 isn't destined to be a better poker player than one whose IQ is 125, but generally I'd say that, typically, "those who score higher than average on an IQ test, have the capacity to be better poker players than those who score below average."

[Devilkin 0]

I have read plenty about the important traits successful poker players possess, i.e. steam control, competitive nature, etc...One of the most obvious traits all the best poker players certainly have is a high IQ.  Though always implicit in most discussions of poker aptitude and traits that the pros possess, I have never read anything specifically talking about general intelligence.  So I have a few questions:Keeping all other attributes constant, how much of a factor is a player's IQ while playing?  Can you really imagine anyone playing at the highest levels without basically a genius IQ?Keeping all other attributes constant, how good of a measure would someone's general intelligence be for measuring their poker aptitude?I understand that any measure of intelligence (including generic IQ tests) is a rather suspect notion.  But you get the idea...I don't post on here very much but I read all the time, so I was curious about the board's thoughts on this subject.

There are the tangibles in the game (such as math skill) and intagibles like reading people. IQ, I believe, is a general term describing a persons ability to recognize patterns, solve problems and analyze situations. Are these useful skills at poker? Yes - are they required to be a top player? No.Math can be memorized - no need for a high IQ. The ability to read players is more intuition and life experience than something you can 'learn'. The only real way I can see a high IQ coming into play is memorizing and analyzing past play by a player.Daniel, on The Score last night, showed something like this. A caller called in to discuss a certain hand awhile ago against Annie Duke. The caller quoted the hands they both held, to which Daniel corrected him. I couldn't remember what I had for dinner last night, let alone a single hand from awhile ago. THIS is one way that a strong memory comes into play - remembering how certain players play in the past.Dev

[calbear11 0]

I'd be willing to bet that most, if not all of the pro's who 'regularly' cash have an IQ in excess of 130, easily.I think there's a huge link between IQ and poker.  Look at Stu Ungar...Jesus Ferguson...Paul Phillips...those guys probably all score above 150.  Genius level is typically defined as 140+I'd love to see what some of the pro's score.  Now, granted, it's not a direct relationship.  That is to say...one whose IQ is 160 isn't destined to be a better poker player than one whose IQ is 125, but generally I'd say that, typically, "those who score higher than average on an IQ test, have the capacity to be better poker players than those who score below average."

I very much agree with you. I'd even say that things like "people reading" skills and what a few replies have called "intuition" are very much correlated with IQ. IQ is not simply logical ability. It is also related to complexity of thought, something very important for the kind of situation-analysis the top pros do every hand. Of course it is not a direct relationship, but as I said in my original question if you control for those other attributes I would have to agree that IQ is highly correlated with poker aptitude (which is to say, a higher IQ gives someone a higher chance of being a better poker player). I as well am very curious about how high of an IQ some of those guys have. DN, Ivey, Chip, Doyle, Greenstein, all those guys have to be upwards of 150 and beyond. It would be very interesting to know the min. and max. of say the top 10, 20, or 50 players today.

[Scott Aigner MD 0]

Certainly this has something to do with the success of some of the players that were discussed. There is another thought about having a high E.Q. or emotional quotient that we discussed at my site. This also can be just as important to the success of a poker player. Daniel says that he thrives and does his best when the stress is highest or his back is against the wall. A high E.Q. could explain this better than a high I.Q. could. Not to say that I don't think that Daniel also is extremely intelligent. In regards to remembering hands and situations, this is an attribute that every top player has. When Doyle Brunson was asked what makes a poker player so great this was his reply. A good memory (or a great one) is not really measured directly in I.Q. tests. It still is a factor in one's overall intelligence. Scott Aigner M.D.

[Royal_Tour 0]

nah. this no good. Me play lots of cards and chess. me good player. And mine winnings more than mine friend who is smrt.. i mean smart.

[TFABOM 0]

high IQ.  

Mike Matasow has won 2 bracelets.

[fluxer 0]

It would be interesting if there was an actual study done on this with a small random sample of poker players.

[adidas freak 0]

high IQ.  

Mike Matasow has won 2 bracelets.

Also, wouldnt Dutch Boyd be one of the best?

[Saint Joel 0]

high IQ.

Mike Matasow has won 2 bracelets.

you totally beat me to it

[Pokerghost2 0]

i wanted to argue, i really did. i wanted to say that people skills aggression and cunning could make a person of average intelligence a champ. But who is to say that people reading skills and cunning are not a form of intelligence. I cant think of one poker champion that i would say is dumb. Hon Le doesnt appear too overly bright tho, and i had to really think to come up with that one. I think measuring intelligence is highly innacurate by any standard means right now anyway, as intelligence can take on many forms.

[calbear11 0]

Certainly this has something to do with the success of some of the players that were discussed. There is another thought about having a high E.Q. or emotional quotient that we discussed at my site. This also can be just as important to the success of a poker player. Daniel says that he thrives and does his best when the stress is highest or his back is against the wall. A high E.Q. could explain this better than a high I.Q. could. Not to say that I don't think that Daniel also is extremely intelligent. In regards to remembering hands and situations, this is an attribute that every top player has. When Doyle Brunson was asked what makes a poker player so great this was his reply. A good memory (or a great one) is not really measured directly in I.Q. tests. It still is a factor in one's overall intelligence. Scott Aigner M.D.

Certainly. I think EQ is very much an important factor. In fact, it could be a good measure of why someone with an IQ of 110 with a good EQ could be a better long-run player than a lunatic with an IQ of 180. The two measures together are probably a very powerful metric for poker aptitude. I certainly can't argue that memory is unimportant. Even though I know it is not directly measured by an IQ test, I include it in my understanding of general intelligence (of which IQ, memory, and other things are components).

[pokernoobie 0]

well u cant be a retard and play poker but u dont have to be a genius to be good ide say any IQ 110 and above is enough

[JFarrell20 1]

Math can be memorized - no need for a high IQ. I couldn't remember what I had for dinner last night, let alone a single hand from awhile ago. THIS is one way that a strong memory comes into play - remembering how certain players play in the past.Dev

Sure, math can be memorized, but the ability to analyze proportions that are constantly in flux is probably a by-product of a high IQ. That is probably what I love about poker the most, is the proportions of everything. My stack, compared to the pot size, compared to the other stacks at the table, compared to the BB, etc.I think memory also correlates to IQ. Perhaps not directly, but generally most people who can't seem to remember sh.it are the same ones who aren't smart! lol.

[alf13 0]

I think IQ has absolutely nothing to do with anything...alot of these guys never went to college or even graduated high school.....Daniel N for example did not finish High School.....I have known some real idiots that are deadly card players....the ones you see on tv with the high IQ's are the exception.....not the rule.

[JFarrell20 1]

I very much agree with you. I'd even say that things like "people reading" skills and what a few replies have called "intuition" are very much correlated with IQ. IQ is not simply logical ability. It is also related to complexity of thought, something very important for the kind of situation-analysis the top pros do every hand.

I agree with this as well. I think many people attribute "people-reading" skills to "street-smart" people. I don't agree with that. I think IQ helps to determine the pattern of a person's tendencies. I don't see how being "street-smart" helps predict personal patterns.

[JFarrell20 1]

high IQ.

Mike Matasow has won 2 bracelets.

Variance. lol.ONE TIME BABY!

[calbear11 0]

I think IQ has absolutely nothing to do with anything...alot of these guys never went to college or even graduated high school.....Daniel N for example did not finish High School.....I have known some real idiots that are deadly card players....the ones you see on tv with the high IQ's are the exception.....not the rule.

Whether or not someone graduated high school has absolutely nothing to do with IQ. Being intelligent can help get good grades, etc..., but I know plenty of very intelligent people that did poorly in school because they were distracted. I think DN was the valedictorian of his junior high, so we can assume he had plenty of aptitude but just got distracted and used his mind for cards not school. Intelligence is not "street smart" or "book smart," it is just plain smart. It is up to the person to decide how to use it.

[Scott Aigner MD 0]

Well Gee,Bill Gates was a c student in high school. Some of the most intelligent people in school sometimes are labeled as being stupid. A number of these students are actually very intelligent and bored by school. Mike Caro was thought to be mentally handicapped (as he put it- retarded which was the word we used back then) and was actually placed in a class for the mentally challenged. Stu Unger never completed high school even though he skipped from 6th grade to eighth grade. He was an extremely intelligent person. Mike Sexton said he had an above genius I.Q. Whether this is actually true or not is not known unless someone has Stu Unger's I.Q. test or school related tests from grade school.I could see Daniel as being more bored with high school than anything else. He might not be a math wizard but he definitely has an intelligence level that is above the norm. Just because someone does not have a formal education, it does not mean that they are not intelligent. Ignorance does not necessarily equate with stupidity. I am ignorant on a lot of subjects in this world. It just means that I have no experience in that subject and not that I cannot master it if I wanted to.Inregards to the I.Q. and E.Q. relationship there is no doubt in my mind that these two factors combined would indeed be more likely to be much higher than average for most of the top poker players in the world. There are other factors involved too but if we were to be able to test the top pros I think we would find this to be a major attribute. There are two types of successful poker players. The first are the highly educated player (like Paul Phillips, Barry Greenstein, Chris Ferguson) and there are the gamblers (Phil Ivey, Daniel Negreanu, etc.) These two types of players could be thought of as being at polar extremes from one another. In fact the highly educated player learns how to play like the gambler and the gambler learns to play more like the conservative opponents when the situation is right to do so. They are all intelligent. They change gears. How else can you change your style without incorporating the opposite style of your normal game? In order to change gears you have to be able to understand how the opposite style thinks. This has to take a level of intelligence. Certainly anyone can win a tournament playing in one gear if the luck is on your side as tournaments are short term results and anything can happen in the short term. The players who repeat or who do well year in and year out though are the ones who have incorporated the styles of other players or at the very least have learned the proper counter strategies to beat their opponents. Even Dan Harrington uses a more aggressive style later in the tournament than when he is just starting a tournament. Scott

[JFarrell20 1]

Well Gee,Some of the most intelligent people in school sometimes are labeled as being stupid. A number of these students are actually very intelligent and bored by school.

Amen to that first statement. lol. My mom loves to tell the story about my 3rd grade teacher calling her at home the day we took the MMAT tests (Missouri something Aptitude Tests).. anyway, I finished the test before anyone and put my head down to go to sleep. (well, let me clarify things here by saying that my teacher never liked me too much because I was a class-clown/slacker/ringleader of all things detrimental to learning). So my teacher infers from this that I blew through the test just circling sh.it. So she calls my mom chastizing her about my laziness and apathy. So all my mom says is "well, if the results come in and they're bad, let me know, but I don't think you should worry." Needless to say a couple weeks later the teacher calls my mom apologizing profusely because I scored in the 99th percentile, highest in the 3rd grade (albeit only about 55 students...it was a Catholic grade school). I think a lot of teachers really s.uck, and have no idea how to facilitate above-average students.Another fun anecdote about that ho: We're having our spelling bee and I get "California" (keep in mind this is 3rd grade...most kids don't even know where to locate it on the map). This was by far the most difficult word yet (as it was toward the end and only a few people were left). So I spell it correctly, and she says "Ohh, I'm sorry, you forgot to say "Capital C". It's a proper noun...WTF!? Uhhh, I was aghast to say the least, especially considering she didn't say that in the directions! I thought it was a spelling bee, not a grammar bee! Does the word not begin with a "c"!?!? I attribute it to the fact that she hated me and wanted me out. It was such bulls.hit, even the other students were dumbfounded by her ruse.Anyway...sorry about the rambling. But you are right, several students get bored in school. The way the system is set up, it's difficult to challenge oneself, when you're lumped in with 25 other normal kids. I've heard Montessori schools are good for facilitating proactive learning, but I think the kids' social skills suffer.

[ghoti7four 0]

JFarrell you astound me.

[ghoti7four 0]

with a capitol A

[SuM827 0]

The problem with this entire thread is that it assumes that the IQ test is an accurate measure of intelligence. The fact is there are so many different types of intelligence that there is no way you can accurately measure each and every one.

[JFarrell20 1]

The problem with this entire thread is that it assumes that the IQ test is an accurate measure of intelligence.

Of course it is. I'm not sure you are aware of what the word "intelligence" means.Someone with a low IQ can read all day long and learn a lot, it doesn't make them intelligent, it makes them "well-read", and "learned".On the other front, you could be born with an IQ of 180, on a deserted island and never learn to read or write, but you're still intelligent. You still have a great capacity for knowledge.