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loose/semi-retarded 2/4 table


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4/5s in the SB. called around to an MP who, as far as i can tell only raises with class 1 hands (this is, as everyone at the table can tell, his first time playing and he is extremely passive). 3 cold callers to me, and i call, as does the BB and then some other brilliant woman who limped in early position folds.The flop is 6,7,8 - rainbow.I bet, BB raises, the PF raiser 3bets, some new lady caps it. In a competent game i would call and check/fold if the board paired up.The turn is a 6. ( 6,6,7,8 )The BB checks, the PF raiser bets, new lady calls, i call and BB calls.River brings a 7. ( 6,6,7,7,8 )The BB checks, the PF raiser bets, the new lady looks frustrated as hell and calls and before i can act, the BB mucks his cards.So im facing a reluctant caller, and the PF raiser.Any guesses as to what they had, and what would you do?

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I call. Someone has an 8, someone has an overpair, and maybe someone has a full house. It's worth calling down in this big pot. I doubt you're good 2/3 of the time so a raise is out of the question.I think I would have led the turn, though.

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why do you call a raise with 4/5s in the SB?Fold this.
there were like 5 people in the pot, a call with small suited connectors is fine. the thing i don't like about it is in this big a pot anyone else would be calling with other suited connectors like 67, 87, 65, or T9. two pair on the board is tough though. the turn looks like a call down play unless either either street is reraised. the river is normally a fold, but with the large pot, maybe a call just to see. i'm guessing the unhappy lady has T9s. PF raiser has some premium pair, BB has 87s.
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why do you call a raise with 4/5s in the SB?Fold this.
obviously you still haven't learned implied odds. he's getting 12-1.5 on his call, which means yes he can successfully call. not to mention that the BB will call more then enough plus the limpers to where he's getting 17-1.5 on his call. How can you not call there? In a multiway pot he's getting way more then enough to call this. easy PF call. As far as the river goes, just call, you'll be good more then you aren't
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Oh yeah, and i called.The guy with the pocket kings was hilarious. He looked a bit confused by what happened when his kings didnt hold up. The hand right before it when i was in the BB, i had 6/2off and flopped two pair. He and I raised back and forth all the way to the river, and he ended up _calling_ me with (no joke) jack high. There was no apparent flush draw or straight draw for his hand either.

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why do you call a raise with 4/5s in the SB?Fold this.
obviously you still haven't learned implied odds. he's getting 12-1.5 on his call, which means yes he can successfully call. not to mention that the BB will call more then enough plus the limpers to where he's getting 17-1.5 on his call. How can you not call there? In a multiway pot he's getting way more then enough to call this. easy PF call. As far as the river goes, just call, you'll be good more then you aren't
How is this implied odds? He doesn't even know what the flop is yet. Pot odds sure, not implied odds.What kind of flop do you want to see here with a call of 1.5 cold and the BB yet to act?Short of A23...I'm not too excited in the prospects of this flop. Even landing a flush isn't a guaranteed win with this many people in. I just don't see how calling a raise here is +EV.Please explain if I'm missing something (anybody, not just KDawg, the guy who bought a voodoo doll of me and ritualistically pierces it nightly)
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why do you call a raise with 4/5s in the SB?Fold this.
obviously you still haven't learned implied odds. he's getting 12-1.5 on his call, which means yes he can successfully call. not to mention that the BB will call more then enough plus the limpers to where he's getting 17-1.5 on his call. How can you not call there? In a multiway pot he's getting way more then enough to call this. easy PF call. As far as the river goes, just call, you'll be good more then you aren't
How is this implied odds? He doesn't even know what the flop is yet. Pot odds sure, not implied odds.What kind of flop do you want to see here with a call of 1.5 cold and the BB yet to act?Short of A23...I'm not too excited in the prospects of this flop. Even landing a flush isn't a guaranteed win with this many people in. I just don't see how calling a raise here is +EV.Please explain if I'm missing something (anybody, not just KDawg, the guy who bought a voodoo doll of me and ritualistically pierces it nightly)
It *is* implied odds.Implied odds exist to make up for small variances in pot odds. For example, you want to call PF with this hand even if the pot odds might not justify it (which they do, so I dont even understand the argument you are trying to make)The implied odds of a hand like this pre-flop are strong because of the action you are going to get if you hit a good flop with all the PF aggression.Why is that so complicated for you?
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because it's a suited connector, and str8s and flushes get paid off in pots this large
but it's a crappy low suited connecter, that, even if it hits a flush or straight... may not hold up. It's just a dangerous hand to chase, really.JMHO.
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because it's a suited connector, and str8s and flushes get paid off in pots this large
but it's a crappy low suited connecter, that, even if it hits a flush or straight... may not hold up. It's just a dangerous hand to chase, really.JMHO.
your argument was that you cant have implied odds pre-flop, which was a stupid one.not that we are surprised or anything
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why do you call a raise with 4/5s in the SB?Fold this.
obviously you still haven't learned implied odds. he's getting 12-1.5 on his call, which means yes he can successfully call. not to mention that the BB will call more then enough plus the limpers to where he's getting 17-1.5 on his call. How can you not call there? In a multiway pot he's getting way more then enough to call this. easy PF call. As far as the river goes, just call, you'll be good more then you aren't
How is this implied odds? He doesn't even know what the flop is yet. Pot odds sure, not implied odds.What kind of flop do you want to see here with a call of 1.5 cold and the BB yet to act?Short of A23...I'm not too excited in the prospects of this flop. Even landing a flush isn't a guaranteed win with this many people in. I just don't see how calling a raise here is +EV.Please explain if I'm missing something (anybody, not just KDawg, the guy who bought a voodoo doll of me and ritualistically pierces it nightly)
It *is* implied odds.Implied odds exist to make up for small variances in pot odds. For example, you want to call PF with this hand even if the pot odds might not justify it (which they do, so I dont even understand the argument you are trying to make)The implied odds of a hand like this pre-flop are strong because of the action you are going to get if you hit a good flop with all the PF aggression.Why is that so complicated for you?
What PF aggression? 1 raise and a bunch of cold-calls? That isn't aggressive at all.Even if you hit your hand early and pump the pot, with so many people in it and odds to chase pretty much anything, you could get involved in a pricey pot, in which your hand doesn't survive. Even with an optimal flop, you could be up against reverse implied odds.Honest question: What kind of flop do you realistically want to see ?
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because it's a suited connector, and str8s and flushes get paid off in pots this large
but it's a crappy low suited connecter, that, even if it hits a flush or straight... may not hold up. It's just a dangerous hand to chase, really.JMHO.
your argument was that you cant have implied odds pre-flop, which was a stupid one.not that we are surprised or anything
Against 5 random hands, 45s has 0 (zero) implied odds preflop. You have no idea what your implied odds are until you see the flop. AA has implied odds preflop b/c it's already a made hand, but against 5 opponents, it doesn't even have implied odds preflop. You're confusing pot odds with implied odds. You really think 5 high has implied odds against 5 other hands preflop? lol.
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why do you call a raise with 4/5s in the SB?Fold this.
obviously you still haven't learned implied odds. he's getting 12-1.5 on his call, which means yes he can successfully call. not to mention that the BB will call more then enough plus the limpers to where he's getting 17-1.5 on his call. How can you not call there? In a multiway pot he's getting way more then enough to call this. easy PF call. As far as the river goes, just call, you'll be good more then you aren't
How is this implied odds? He doesn't even know what the flop is yet. Pot odds sure, not implied odds.What kind of flop do you want to see here with a call of 1.5 cold and the BB yet to act?Short of A23...I'm not too excited in the prospects of this flop. Even landing a flush isn't a guaranteed win with this many people in. I just don't see how calling a raise here is +EV.Please explain if I'm missing something (anybody, not just KDawg, the guy who bought a voodoo doll of me and ritualistically pierces it nightly)
It *is* implied odds.Implied odds exist to make up for small variances in pot odds. For example, you want to call PF with this hand even if the pot odds might not justify it (which they do, so I dont even understand the argument you are trying to make)The implied odds of a hand like this pre-flop are strong because of the action you are going to get if you hit a good flop with all the PF aggression.Why is that so complicated for you?
What PF aggression? 1 raise and a bunch of cold-calls? That isn't aggressive at all.Even if you hit your hand early and pump the pot, with so many people in it and odds to chase pretty much anything, you could get involved in a pricey pot, in which your hand doesn't survive. Even with an optimal flop, you could be up against reverse implied odds.Honest question: What kind of flop do you realistically want to see ?
236 of my suit would be cool.
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because it's a suited connector, and str8s and flushes get paid off in pots this large
but it's a crappy low suited connecter, that, even if it hits a flush or straight... may not hold up. It's just a dangerous hand to chase, really.JMHO.
your argument was that you cant have implied odds pre-flop, which was a stupid one.not that we are surprised or anything
Against 5 random hands, 45s has 0 (zero) implied odds preflop. You have no idea what your implied odds are until you see the flop. AA has implied odds preflop b/c it's already a made hand, but against 5 opponents, it doesn't even have implied odds preflop. You're confusing pot odds with implied odds. You really think 5 high has implied odds against 5 other hands preflop? lol.
The definition of Implied Odds according to Sklansky:""Implied odds are based on the possibility of winning money in later betting rounds over and above what is in the pot already. More precisely, your implied odds are the ratio of your total expected win when your card hits to present cost of calling a bet"Directly from The Theory Of Poker by Sklansky. Why is this so hard? How can you possibly argue this? absolutely retarded........Your perpatual argument in this is weak and irritating to me. People come here asking for genuine help and you muck it all up. Damn........Seriously, I hate hopping in to one of these things and seeming mean but damn, at least have a vauge idea as to what your talking about
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Definition: Implied odds- Being paid off if you hit a hand in a big way.(Definition not given by Webster himself)Is anyone going to pay off 45s if it hits? Yes. Especially the guy who only raises with class 1 hands. There is enough justification to see a flop. If you miss, you get rid of it, simple as that.

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okay JFarrell, you are completely clueless on how to play good limit poker. For starters he is getting 12-1.5 immeadite odds on his call with which basically means that the OP will have to win the hand about 8% of the time, which he will. Now for PF he is getting 17-1.5 implied odds if everyone calls the raise, which means that to call the OP will have to win almost 5% of the time, which will happen. Now if he hits a astraight or flush draw then he will win the entire pot from there anywhere from 28-36% of the time. Its an easy dump post flop idf he doesn't hit any draw, even a backdor draw since he'd have odds to go for one. Do you see where you are wrong, or are you just retarded

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While I advocate calling in this situation pre-flop with suited connectors, these particular suited connectors are at the low end of the spectrum, right around my personal cut-off line (I will definately call with 5 6, but I think 4 5 is pushing it the majority of the time...depends on the table). We are at the ignorant end of the straight here (as doyle likes to call it), it gets capped after you bet the flop, so I think you have to let this go more times than not with that many people seeing the flop and with that action. :club:

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Against 5 random hands, 45s has 0 (zero) implied odds preflop. You have no idea what your implied odds are until you see the flop. AA has implied odds preflop b/c it's already a made hand, but against 5 opponents, it doesn't even have implied odds preflop. You're confusing pot odds with implied odds. You really think 5 high has implied odds against 5 other hands preflop? lol.
:club: Did Hellmuth tell you that? Sure it has implied odds, AK will pay you off on a flop of 55K, KK will pay you off on a 45J flop. Folding that hand preflop with so many callers is incredibly weak. I'd rather play 45s than AJo there.
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Well he hit an almost optimal flop and yet if a 9 or 10 comes off, he's almost certain to lose with that many hands involved.Seriously...what kind of flop do you guys want to hit here? I'm being honest. Even if you hit an ideal flop, you may not hold up, and you may pay off bigtime in the expensive turn and river rounds.Nobody's mentioned reverse implied odds of being totally dominated with such a sh.itty hand like this.How bout this...he flops aflush...and pumps the pot...to find another card of his suit fall on the turn or river and his hand is now counterfeited by a higher flush. OR, no additional suit falls and he still loses to someone with pocket suited cards higher than his?I just don't think this hand is worth a call of a raise here. More of a case can be made for him if he's in the BB, but the SB? What if he was in the CO? Would you guys advocate him calling 2 cold here in the CO? If not...why not? He still has "pot odds" to call, even with 2 people behind him right???

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Well he hit an almost optimal flop and yet if a 9 or 10 comes off, he's almost certain to lose with that many hands involved.Seriously...what kind of flop do you guys want to hit here? I'm being honest. Even if you hit an ideal flop, you may not hold up, and you may pay off bigtime in the expensive turn and river rounds.Nobody's mentioned reverse implied odds of being totally dominated with such a sh.itty hand like this.How bout this...he flops aflush...and pumps the pot...to find another card of his suit fall on the turn or river and his hand is now counterfeited by a higher flush. OR, no additional suit falls and he still loses to someone with pocket suited cards higher than his?I just don't think this hand is worth a call of a raise here. More of a case can be made for him if he's in the BB, but the SB? What if he was in the CO? Would you guys advocate him calling 2 cold here in the CO? If not...why not? He still has "pot odds" to call, even with 2 people behind him right???
This made no sense whatsoever. I'm just going to quote KDawg here because I'm too tired:"Now if he hits a astraight or flush draw then he will win the entire pot from there anywhere from 28-36% of the time."You MIGHT get hit by a car when you go outside. Does this prevent you from going outside?
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Well he hit an almost optimal flop and yet if a 9 or 10 comes off, he's almost certain to lose with that many hands involved.Seriously...what kind of flop do you guys want to hit here? I'm being honest. Even if you hit an ideal flop, you may not hold up, and you may pay off bigtime in the expensive turn and river rounds.Nobody's mentioned reverse implied odds of being totally dominated with such a sh.itty hand like this.How bout this...he flops aflush...and pumps the pot...to find another card of his suit fall on the turn or river and his hand is now counterfeited by a higher flush. OR, no additional suit falls and he still loses to someone with pocket suited cards higher than his?I just don't think this hand is worth a call of a raise here. More of a case can be made for him if he's in the BB, but the SB? What if he was in the CO? Would you guys advocate him calling 2 cold here in the CO? If not...why not? He still has "pot odds" to call, even with 2 people behind him right???
I think even in the CO you can call with that many callers ahead of you. A raise UTG and folded around to you 45s is an easy fold, but with that many people in the hand I was to see a flop with suited connectors. It also depends on the table, is it 3 bet alot preflop? Are the players behind you likely to raise?
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