If Derren Brown Could Travel Through Time

[simo_8ball 0]

Suppose Derren Brown/David Copperfield/some other magician or illusionist went back 2000 years and performed tricks and illusions ("miracles?") claiming he was the son of God and that these were mystical powers.How likely would it be for Browntology or Copperfieldiology to be a mainstream religion in modern society?

(Ya, I know I'm kinda ripping this from South Park, who cares)

This isn't anything against Jesus, it's more a 'societal trend theory' question.I think that in theory it's pretty damn possible.

[Loismustdie 0]

Suppose Derren Brown/David Copperfield/some other magician or illusionist went back 2000 years and performed tricks and illusions ("miracles?") claiming he was the son of God and that these were mystical powers.How likely would it be for Browntology or Copperfieldiology to be a mainstream religion in modern society?

(Ya, I know I'm kinda ripping this from South Park, who cares)

This isn't anything against Jesus, it's more a 'societal trend theory' question.I think that in theory it's pretty damn possible.

Biblically there were those that did do just that.

[simo_8ball 0]

Biblically there were those that did do just that.

So what made Jesus so much more believeable than the pretenders? Was it that his 'tricks' were better? Why did he command so many followers?If his message was the same as the others, was it simply that his miracles outshone others?

[Loismustdie 0]

So what made Jesus so much more believeable than the pretenders? Was it that his 'tricks' were better? Why did he command so many followers?If his message was the same as the others, was it simply that his miracles outshone others?

Well, the difference was that Jesus miracles were not just about "Lookie what I can do." There was a point to them, a lesson, a reason. So, while others could pull off illusion, they had no substance to who they were.

[crowTrobot 2]

Well, the difference was that Jesus miracles were not just about "Lookie what I can do." There was a point to them, a lesson, a reason. So, while others could pull off illusion, they had no substance to who they were.

what about modern hindu gurus that have had *millions* of followers believe they work miracles? they certainly have religious "substance" similar to jesus.

[Loismustdie 0]

what about modern hindu gurus that have had *millions* of followers believe they work miracles? they certainly have religious "substance" similar to jesus.

What about them? I don't care. To quote you, millions of people believed the world was flat, that doesn't make them right. The modern sure tells me something as in not original, not the real thing.

[crowTrobot 2]

What about them?

there's nothing that distinguishes jesus from modern hindu gurus. that's what lol.

[Loismustdie 0]

there's nothing that distinguishes jesus from modern hindu gurus. that's what lol.

I wasn't aware they were the actual Sons of God. Where have I been? What about this, what about that, what about this, what about that, but the truth is you could not care less. Any question you ask is asked just to try and further your agenda. I won't play that game anymore. Go and test someone elses faith, you failed here long ago. There was a point in time where even Jesus wouldn't entertain his own apostle, and told him to "Get thee behind me, Satan."

[crowTrobot 2]

I wasn't aware they were the actual Sons of God. Where have I been?

wake up and smell the guru. one (at least) even claims to be born of a virgin.

What about this, what about that, what about this, what about that, but the truth is you could not care less. Any question you ask is asked just to try and further your agenda. I won't play that game anymore. Go and test someone elses faith, you failed here long ago. There was a point in time where even Jesus wouldn't entertain his own apostle, and told him to "Get thee behind me, Satan."

obviously when i or anyone else responds to you it's not for your sake. you should have realized that about 3 years ago. nobody cares about "testing your faith" lol. everyone here is making points on the slim chance someone else who might be influenced is reading.

[Loismustdie 0]

wake up and smell the guru. one (at least) even claims to be born of a virgin.obviously when i or anyone else responds to you it's not for your sake. you should have realized that about 3 years ago. nobody cares about "testing your faith" lol. everyone here is making points on the slim chance someone else who might be influenced is reading.

Next step is door to door. How is religion treating you?

[crowTrobot 2]

Next step is door to door. How is religion treating you?

so a public religion forum isn't a proper place to try to influence people?

[Loismustdie 0]

so a public religion forum isn't a proper place to try to influence people?

No. It's a religion forum. There are forums for you, elsewhere. Would I go to a Ford lovers site and antagonize them, jumping into every conversation trumpeting the virtues of Chevy? No. It's rude and in bad taste. You used to actually conversate, but now your only real goal is to destroy, to try and put a wedge between people and God. Maybe let people who want to be involved in religion, be involved in religion. But, you can't do that, because you are as driven as any fundamentalist christian to get your message across. So, like I said, next step door to door. Make up some pamphlets, get in a Ford Focus, dress in a shirt and tie and take your message to the people like a man. That I could respect.

[crowTrobot 2]

No. It's a religion forum. There are forums for you, elsewhere Would I go to a Ford lovers site and antagonize them, jumping into every conversation trumpeting the virtues of Chevy? No. It's rude and in bad taste. You used to actually conversate, but now your only real goal is to destroy, to try and put a wedge between people and God. Maybe let people who want to be involved in religion, be involved in religion. But, you can't do that, because you are as driven as any fundamentalist christian to get your message across. So, like I said, next step door to door. Make up some pamphlets, get in a Ford Focus, dress in a shirt and tie and take your message to the people like a man. That I could respect.

too busy jumping through the roof for joy over brandon roy being named to the AS team to respond right now

[crowTrobot 2]

No. It's a religion forum. There are forums for you, elsewhere.

so it's ok for christians to brutally attack mormonism or scientology here, but atheists should keep their mouths shut about christianity? slight double standard u got there.

Would I go to a Ford lovers site and antagonize them, jumping into every conversation trumpeting the virtues of Chevy?

you seem to think this is a *christian* forum. news flash - it's not. it's a forum for discussing the virtues of views on *any* religion, or for that matter all religion, both positive and negative.

You used to actually conversate, but now your only real goal is to destroy, to try and put a wedge between people and God.

actually i'm just doing what i've always done. in fact i'm much less personally confrontational than some of the other atheists here if u haven't noticed.

But, you can't do that, because you are as driven as any fundamentalist christian to get your message across. So, like I said, next step door to door. Make up some pamphlets, get in a Ford Focus, dress in a shirt and tie and take your message to the people like a man. That I could respect.

again, public forum here. i'm not the type to invade anyone's privacy. in fact the few times you've had heated christian-doctrinal debate with other christian posters here i've stayed out of your way. that hasn't happened for awhile though because you're the undisputed christian heavyweight champ of the forums apparently B)

[Loismustdie 0]

so it's ok for christians to brutally attack mormonism or scientology here, but atheists should keep their mouths shut about christianity? slight double standard u got there.you seem to think this is a *christian* forum. news flash - it's not. it's a forum for discussing the virtues of views on *any* religion, or for that matter all religion, both positive and negative.actually i'm just doing what i've always done. in fact i'm much less personally confrontational than some of the other atheists here if u haven't noticed. again, public forum here. i'm not the type to invade anyone's privacy. in fact the few times you've had heated christian-doctrinal debate with other christian posters here i've stayed out of your way. that hasn't happened for awhile though because you're the undisputed christian heavyweight champ of the forums apparently B)

I'm gonna knock you out.... Look, don't get me wrong. I am sure that in a week or two I will be ready to reload, and go at it again, but lately it has been a bit exhausting. Being the champ ain't easy. Now, that being said, it's a clever thing you do- and, by the way, I agree with the the fact that you have always been respectful- it's clever thing you do, the line you walk. I know- and you know- your motive is to turn people away from the idea of God. For you to deny that is dishonest. That IS your overall goal. So, no it's not a christian forum, that being said, it's the predominate religion of choice, is it not? I need to remember something, and I apologize that I continue over time to group you with the various tards that come and go, that is unfair. You, Yorke, Wakefield- who never even shows anymore- Simo,even Speedz are usually quite pleasant. I am sure I missed a name or two, but you get the point. Lately, it was Digitalmonkey who I had to school, but that drained all my jedi powers(the dark side is strong with that one)and this new kid, Ben Savage, I have no idea what that's about. Apparently I feel like acting juvenile. I should have actually put him on ignore, but I had emptied my ignore list and I just don't feel like having to do that. I guess my overall point is that atheism is not a religion- so, what exactly do you bring to the table?

[BenSavage 0]

I'm gonna knock you out.... Look, don't get me wrong. I am sure that in a week or two I will be ready to reload, and go at it again, but lately it has been a bit exhausting. Being the champ ain't easy. Now, that being said, it's a clever thing you do- and, by the way, I agree with the the fact that you have always been respectful- it's clever thing you do, the line you walk. I know- and you know- your motive is to turn people away from the idea of God. For you to deny that is dishonest. That IS your overall goal. So, no it's not a christian forum, that being said, it's the predominate religion of choice, is it not? I need to remember something, and I apologize that I continue over time to group you with the various tards that come and go, that is unfair. You, Yorke, Wakefield- who never even shows anymore- Simo,even Speedz are usually quite pleasant. I am sure I missed a name or two, but you get the point. Lately, it was Digitalmonkey who I had to school, but that drained all my jedi powers(the dark side is strong with that one)and this new kid, Ben Savage, I have no idea what that's about. Apparently I feel like acting juvenile. I should have actually put him on ignore, but I had emptied my ignore list and I just don't feel like having to do that. I guess my overall point is that atheism is not a religion- so, what exactly do you bring to the table?

What did I do to you? Real righteous of you.And once again, you couldn't ignore me if you tried.

[crowTrobot 2]

I know- and you know- your motive is to turn people away from the idea of God. For you to deny that is dishonest. That IS your overall goal.

away from divisive pretentious certainties, not away from god. to you that probably means the same thing, but it's not. i only debate the generic question of god for entertainment.

I guess my overall point is that atheism is not a religion- so, what exactly do you bring to the table?

you're not a scientologist or mormon. doesn't stop you from expressing your opinion on those beliefs.

[jmkiser 0]

I'm gonna knock you out.... Look, don't get me wrong. I am sure that in a week or two I will be ready to reload, and go at it again, but lately it has been a bit exhausting. Being the champ ain't easy. Now, that being said, it's a clever thing you do- and, by the way, I agree with the the fact that you have always been respectful- it's clever thing you do, the line you walk. I know- and you know- your motive is to turn people away from the idea of God. For you to deny that is dishonest. That IS your overall goal. So, no it's not a christian forum, that being said, it's the predominate religion of choice, is it not? I need to remember something, and I apologize that I continue over time to group you with the various tards that come and go, that is unfair. You, Yorke, Wakefield- who never even shows anymore- Simo,even Speedz are usually quite pleasant. I am sure I missed a name or two, but you get the point. Lately, it was Digitalmonkey who I had to school, but that drained all my jedi powers(the dark side is strong with that one)and this new kid, Ben Savage, I have no idea what that's about. Apparently I feel like acting juvenile. I should have actually put him on ignore, but I had emptied my ignore list and I just don't feel like having to do that. I guess my overall point is that atheism is not a religion- so, what exactly do you bring to the table?

[Loismustdie 0]

Sorry, JM. I said I was drained.

[Balloon guy 158]

Suppose Derren Brown/David Copperfield/some other magician or illusionist went back 2000 years and performed tricks and illusions ("miracles?") claiming he was the son of God and that these were mystical powers.How likely would it be for Browntology or Copperfieldiology to be a mainstream religion in modern society?

(Ya, I know I'm kinda ripping this from South Park, who cares)

This isn't anything against Jesus, it's more a 'societal trend theory' question.I think that in theory it's pretty damn possible.

I think it would go something like this:First as we all know time travel must be done naked.Magician: I need some clothes, a deck of cards, some mirrors and a pulley and rope.People 2,000 years ago: Here's a robe with short sleeves and no hidden pockets, sorry no cards and no way to make them, sorry no mirrors that are even remotely clear, sorry rope is too expensive to waste on entertainment.Magician: But I can perform magic.People 2,000 years ago: Oh good, make it rain.Magician: Not that kind of magic, but a slight of hand misdirection kind of magic.People 2,000 years ago: Kill him, he's a magician with no value.Magician: No wait, I have these really cool skills, I just don't have the tools I need. People 2,000 years ago: Next you'll tell us you can reach level 26 of Zork like the last guy we killed.Magician: Wait what?????

[timwakefield 68]

Suppose Derren Brown/David Copperfield/some other magician or illusionist went back 2000 years and performed tricks and illusions ("miracles?") claiming he was the son of God and that these were mystical powers.How likely would it be for Browntology or Copperfieldiology to be a mainstream religion in modern society?

(Ya, I know I'm kinda ripping this from South Park, who cares)

This isn't anything against Jesus, it's more a 'societal trend theory' question.I think that in theory it's pretty damn possible.

Really??Ok well let's talk about time travel. The obvious paradox about being able to travel to the past is that, if you have free will, you could drastically affect the present by changing the past (killing you grandfather or what have you). Ok well this can be explained away by suggesting that there are infinite parallel universes in existence, and that every decision that is made anywhere creates a new parallel universe, so changing the past would simply create a new universe with your timeline continuing unchanged when you returned to it. Ok, but then if David Copperfield traveled back 2000 years, our present timeline would not be affected by any changes, and any "Copperfieldiology" universes that were brought into existence would be immaterial (since they would already exist, in a reality with infinite universes). So yeah, plain and simple huh?Ok so all of that also points to the fact that traveling to the past is MOST likely impossible and will never happen (if it could, we should expect to see future travelers dropping in on us throughout history). It IS however possible that, if a time machine is invented, people in the future would be able to travel back in time to any period after that machine was invented. Traveling to the future is easy of course, just go really really super duper fast.

[brvheart 1,759]

so it's ok for christians to brutally attack mormonism or scientology here, but atheists should keep their mouths shut about christianity? slight double standard u got there.

I'm glad you're finally admitting that atheism is a religion or at least works exactly like one.

[speedz99 145]

I'm glad you're finally admitting that atheism is a religion or at least works exactly like one.

There is no right or wrong answer about whether or not atheism is a religion. From two different dictionaries...1. A set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs. 2. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship. Obviously based on #1 atheism could possible be considered a religion, but #2 excludes atheism. My personal opinion is that atheism is only called a religion by people who are unable or unwilling to understand a world where a god figure is completely irrelevant, which is what it would be like if everyone was atheist. It's like people who say that science is like a religion...they say that because they can't comprehend (not because they're too stupid but because of some inherant belief structures) any person existing without some form of religion to govern their lives. But, again, that's just my opinion and I do see why someone might disagree with me.But I suppose you were probably kidding, since disagreeing with other religions doesn't make a group of people part of a religion themselves.

[vbnautilus 48]

The fundamental difference between most people who call themselves atheists and those who call themselves religious is not the content of their beliefs (one group believes X the other believes Y), it is the epistemology - the understanding about how knowledge about the world is best derived. It's the method of deriving beliefs that differs. A good atheist does not hold anything to be true by dogma - no tenet is unchallengeable by evidence. Every religion has ideas that are unchangeable assumptions which cannot be changed in the face of contrary evidence.

[simo_8ball 0]

Really??Ok well let's talk about time travel. The obvious paradox about being able to travel to the past is that, if you have free will, you could drastically affect the present by changing the past (killing you grandfather or what have you). Ok well this can be explained away by suggesting that there are infinite parallel universes in existence, and that every decision that is made anywhere creates a new parallel universe, so changing the past would simply create a new universe with your timeline continuing unchanged when you returned to it. Ok, but then if David Copperfield traveled back 2000 years, our present timeline would not be affected by any changes, and any "Copperfieldiology" universes that were brought into existence would be immaterial (since they would already exist, in a reality with infinite universes). So yeah, plain and simple huh?Ok so all of that also points to the fact that traveling to the past is MOST likely impossible and will never happen (if it could, we should expect to see future travelers dropping in on us throughout history). It IS however possible that, if a time machine is invented, people in the future would be able to travel back in time to any period after that machine was invented. Traveling to the future is easy of course, just go really really super duper fast.

You missed my point entirely. I wasn't talking about the feasibility of time travel. That was just a random method of getting modern day magic to the past that was pretty much irrelevant to what I was getting at.I could equally well have said "If a conjuror back then knew how to create and perform modern magic tricks..."I do think the theoretical puzzles and self-cancelling circles of potential events in time travel theory are fun though (killing your grandmother in the past, for instance).