delasoul 0 Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 Call, Raise, FoldFull Tilt Poker, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 9 PlayersLeggoPoker.com - Hand History ConverterUTG+1: $50.70UTG+2: $49.50MP1: $55.25MP2: $21.35CO: $66.65BTN: $50.80Hero (SB): $51.55BB: $49.50UTG: $102.50Pre-Flop: Q A dealt to Hero (SB)UTG folds, UTG+1 raises to $1.50, 5 folds, Hero calls $1.25, BB foldsFlop: ($3.50) 2 Q J (2 Players)Hero checks, UTG+1 bets $13, Link to post Share on other sites
sactownjoey 0 Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 Wow. Fun hand. Love the 4x pot bet. I'll try and see how wrong I am. My guess is that villain has a made hand (probably w/o a diamond) that he doesn't want to get sucked out on. AJ, JJ, QQ, AQ, KK, AA, KQ probably? Is there any way he gives up any of those hands if we shove on him and do we want him to go away? I think our action dies if another diamond falls and we may already have the best hand.I think I shove. Link to post Share on other sites
delasoul 0 Posted January 30, 2008 Author Share Posted January 30, 2008 Wow. Fun hand. Love the 4x pot bet. I'll try and see how wrong I am. My guess is that villain has a made hand (probably w/o a diamond) that he doesn't want to get sucked out on. AJ, JJ, QQ, AQ, KK, AA, KQ probably? Is there any way he gives up any of those hands if we shove on him and do we want him to go away? I think our action dies if another diamond falls and we may already have the best hand.I think I shove.No notes on the guy and not using pokertracker or hud so we have to play him as standard....By the way...does anyone have pokerstove and mind running the range here that he listed. I wasn't quite sure based on his range what the odds were on this hand. Link to post Share on other sites
delasoul 0 Posted January 30, 2008 Author Share Posted January 30, 2008 oh and if he flopped a set he is for sure going broke with it. Link to post Share on other sites
Metternich 0 Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 I shove, I don't think a made flush or a set ever do this and you're crushing everything else in his range. Maybe he has KsKd or something like that. Link to post Share on other sites
delasoul 0 Posted January 30, 2008 Author Share Posted January 30, 2008 I shove, I don't think a made flush or a set ever do this and you're crushing everything else in his range. Maybe he has KsKd or something like that.Yah I agree most just make a standard bet here and make there move on the turn depending on what comes out. What makes it dicey is that based on his bet there's a decent chance he'll stack off with his hole cards if I raise or shove. Link to post Share on other sites
sactownjoey 0 Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 I shove, I don't think a made flush or a set ever do this and you're crushing everything else in his range. Maybe he has KsKd or something like that.Why? What line do you think a set takes? Link to post Share on other sites
NoBBiR 0 Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 Omfg. TPTK and the newt flush draw? Get all of your dollars in the pot. Link to post Share on other sites
Acid_Knight 2 Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 1. Why did you check the flop?2. How badly did you hurt your finger clicking "all in" after the action on the flop?3. BBFIDTS I'm sure. Link to post Share on other sites
delasoul 0 Posted January 30, 2008 Author Share Posted January 30, 2008 1. Why did you check the flop?2. How badly did you hurt your finger clicking "all in" after the action on the flop?3. BBFIDTS I'm sure.I wanted to check raise here if he bet out and if he checked I'm drawing to the nut flush draw cheaply oop. The only problem is when I check he over-bet the pot. I could have taken the line and bet out which I agree with, but I felt at that point that I was in good shape here and took this line instead. Link to post Share on other sites
Metternich 0 Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 You don't want to wait until the four flush hits the board to try and get money out of the villain, unless he has a set and is drawing to a boat or has something like the Kd he won't pay you at all and even then he won't pay you much. You want to get your money in ahead of that situation occurring.Also, a set isn't going to be overshoving the pot here because a smart player with a set will know he's crushing everything except a made flush, and even against that he has outs. He is playing for value at this point, plenty of hands he beats will pay him. Someone playing for value doesnt shove 4x the pot on the flop.We definitely want to get the money in here, fistpumpinstaallin please. Link to post Share on other sites
delasoul 0 Posted January 30, 2008 Author Share Posted January 30, 2008 You don't want to wait until the four flush hits the board to try and get money out of the villain, unless he has a set and is drawing to a boat or has something like the Kd he won't pay you at all and even then he won't pay you much. You want to get your money in ahead of that situation occurring.Also, a set isn't going to be overshoving the pot here because a smart player with a set will know he's crushing everything except a made flush, and even against that he has outs. He is playing for value at this point, plenty of hands he beats will pay him. Someone playing for value doesnt shove 4x the pot on the flop.We definitely want to get the money in here, fistpumpinstaallin please.Well I wasn't waiting for the four flush to hit actually. It would have just been a bonus to hit and take down a pot if it did come on the turn...Nevertheless I shoved all-in.I just wanted to see what the norm is here...The results are irrelevant.Out of curiosity would anybody just call and re-evaluate on the turn here? Link to post Share on other sites
sactownjoey 0 Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 You don't want to wait until the four flush hits the board to try and get money out of the villain, unless he has a set and is drawing to a boat or has something like the Kd he won't pay you at all and even then he won't pay you much. You want to get your money in ahead of that situation occurring.Also, a set isn't going to be overshoving the pot here because a smart player with a set will know he's crushing everything except a made flush, and even against that he has outs. He is playing for value at this point, plenty of hands he beats will pay him. Someone playing for value doesnt shove 4x the pot on the flop.We definitely want to get the money in here, fistpumpinstaallin please.Does a smart player ever shove 4x the pot on the flop? That's why I'm asking. This bet is just so ridiculous, in my opinion, that we can't assume he would do this with an overpair and 2nd nut flush draw and not a set. Link to post Share on other sites
mtdesmoines 3 Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 Call, Raise, FoldFull Tilt Poker, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 9 PlayersLeggoPoker.com - Hand History ConverterUTG+1: $50.70UTG+2: $49.50MP1: $55.25MP2: $21.35CO: $66.65BTN: $50.80Hero (SB): $51.55BB: $49.50UTG: $102.50Pre-Flop: Q:spade: A:diamond: dealt to Hero (SB)UTG folds, UTG+1 raises to $1.50, 5 folds, Hero calls $1.25, BB foldsFlop: ($3.50) 2:diamond: Q:diamond: J:diamond: (2 Players)Hero checks, UTG+1 bets $13,HU, I go a little more than min raise here. Guarantees us an AI at the river. I'm not folding any card that appears on the board here. Link to post Share on other sites
David_Nicoson 1 Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 Call, Raise, FoldFull Tilt Poker, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 9 PlayersLeggoPoker.com - Hand History ConverterUTG+1: $50.70UTG+2: $49.50MP1: $55.25MP2: $21.35CO: $66.65BTN: $50.80Hero (SB): $51.55BB: $49.50UTG: $102.50Pre-Flop: Q A dealt to Hero (SB)UTG folds, UTG+1 raises to $1.50, 5 folds, Hero calls $1.25, BB foldsFlop: ($3.50) 2 Q J (2 Players)Hero checks, UTG+1 bets $13, Link to post Share on other sites
delasoul 0 Posted January 30, 2008 Author Share Posted January 30, 2008 Does a smart player ever shove 4x the pot on the flop? That's why I'm asking. This bet is just so ridiculous, in my opinion, that we can't assume he would do this with an overpair and 2nd nut flush draw and not a set.To be honest...I don't re-call going to a showdown on a situation like this where someone over-bet the pot like that with a set...Typically what I see is that the set bets out the pot and the draw raises and they get it all-in on the flop. I've been on both sides of this equation, but have never gone to a showdown where I saw a set 4x bet on the flop with villian showing a set Link to post Share on other sites
David_Nicoson 1 Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 Fold preflop.Push as played. Link to post Share on other sites
Metternich 0 Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 Pardon my ignorance, but why do we want to fold preflop here? Its a standard raise and we have a hand which is only behind to 4 possible holdings. Link to post Share on other sites
David_Nicoson 1 Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 Pardon my ignorance, but why do we want to fold preflop here? Its a standard raise and we have a hand which is only behind to 4 possible holdings.AQo doesn't really stack up well with a reasonable raising range from UTG+1. Plus we're out of position, which can prove to be expensive if we're up against AK and flop an ace. Link to post Share on other sites
TB17 0 Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 I don't even thinking for deception purposes I just ship it in Link to post Share on other sites
Dictius 0 Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 Just noticed this is full ring, fold preflop is probably correct if this guy is aware of position. If he doesn't understand the importance of position then his UTG opening range is wider and I might reraise.I'm shoving the flop.Does anyone else think the flop bet from villain was a misclick? Or it could be a 'defensive push', where the villain didn't get the flop he was after and bet huge to try and get you to fold. Link to post Share on other sites
NoBBiR 0 Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 Just noticed this is full ring, fold preflop is probably correct if this guy is aware of position. If he doesn't understand the importance of position then his UTG opening range is wider and I might reraise.I'm shoving the flop.Does anyone else think the flop bet from villain was a misclick? Or it could be a 'defensive push', where the villain didn't get the flop he was after and bet huge to try and get you to fold.I think it's a misclick.Regardless, just ship it in buddy.And I don't think I'd fold this to a 3x preflop raise at 50nl, even OOP. I guess if you're sort of uncomfortable post flop, then folding is good. We're basically closing the action unless the BB blows up. Link to post Share on other sites
Bshealey786 0 Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 With top pair and the nut flush draw there is no way I don't shove here.... Link to post Share on other sites
KramitDaToad 0 Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 Out of curiosity would anybody just call and re-evaluate on the turn here?No. Your equity tanks on a non-diamond turn and your ability to extract value tanks if it is a diamond.Lose-lose.Also, fold PF without reads Link to post Share on other sites
BuffDan 0 Posted February 2, 2008 Share Posted February 2, 2008 For those of you who said fold preflop, is that because of the early position of the raiser? Because I have been generally 3-betting AQo preflop, at least against late position raisers. Link to post Share on other sites
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