Is This Standard Or Retarded?

[sjm20 0]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (9 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)MP2 (t1320)MP3 (t1480)CO (t1460)Button (t1420)SB (t1500)BB (t1500)Hero (t1500)UTG+1 (t1880)MP1 (t1440)Preflop: Hero is UTG with J, J. Hero calls t20, 1 fold, MP1 calls t20, 2 folds, CO raises to t200, Button raises to t380, 2 folds, Hero calls t360, MP1 folds, CO raises to t1460, Button calls t1040 (All-In), Hero folds.Flop: (t3310) 4, 8, 4(2 players, 1 all-in)Turn: (t3310) 2(2 players, 1 all-in)River: (t3310) T(2 players, 1 all-in)Final Pot: t32701) Don't ask me why I limped UTG with JJ. I hate raising this hand from out of position early in these things.2) I called the bet preflop because the initial raiser had raised the first few hands of the SNG. I figured losing the chips early wouldn't be a big deal with blinds this small if it got re-popped.3) In a 4.40 am I supposed to call here against two players?

[simo_8ball 0]

[x] Tournament hand[ ] Tournament forumEDIT: [x] Tournament forum

[simo_8ball 0]

Limping is a huge mistake. Open raise, and it's not close.Flat calling a massive raise and a reraise is a huge mistake. They aren't both going crazy with TT or 99 here.Folding is a pretty simple decision against two players shoving.

[Mercury69 3]

While limping with JJ from any position is kind of dumb, it could work to your favor. Why? Because the guys going nutso with the raising and re-raising probably don't know you have a fairly powerful hand. While one of them could possibly have an overpair, it's even more likely one has a middle pair and the other has overs. It's the fold part that I dislike the most. It's pretty early in the tourney, but I doubt you'll get a better opportunity to triple up this early.I say call and let the cards fall as they may, particularly if this is a >$20 tourney. If you get bounced, saddle up for another...

[Sheiky 0]

Fold when it after it gets back to you, calling is suicidal.

[Mercury69 3]

Fold when it after it gets back to you, calling is suicidal.

Is your underwear as tight as your playing style? :-)

[Sheiky 0]

Is your underwear as tight as your playing style? :-)

Folding to the button's re-raise is 100% standard.

[Mercury69 3]

Folding to the button's re-raise is 100% standard.

Fair enough, but "standard" still has a wide range of possibilities and opportunities. I did say the call was dependant on the Hero's ability to willingly risk the tourney buy-in, so that's one small mitigating factor.

[Sheiky 0]

Fair enough, but "standard" still has a wide range of possibilities and opportunities. I did say the call was dependant on the Hero's ability to willingly risk the tourney buy-in, so that's one small mitigating factor.

Your ability to lose a buy in is never ever EVER a mitigating factor, no matter how small.

[gobears 0]

I don't mind limping this early in a tourney from EP - however, you're basically playing for the set if you limp. With the raise and re-raise after your limp, this is an easy muck.

[simo_8ball 0]

I don't mind limping this early in a tourney from EP - however, you're basically playing for the set if you limp. With the raise and re-raise after your limp, this is an easy muck.

I think you lose a ton of value by limping. 99 I could accept, but JJ is just too strong imo.

[Mercury69 3]

With the blinds this low, I'm raising with any PP. Even with a raise, you're going to get called a lot...

[sjm20 0]

First of all, I apologize for posting in the wrong forum - thank you for moving it.Second of all, I think you all have some interesting points and I appreciate the input. I understand the risk in losing value in limping UTG, but I'd like to make an argument about the poor play after the flop most of these 4.40 players have. Think about how this hand played as it is. One player raises 180 to 200 with blinds at 10/20, the next player from the button minraises to 380 in position. I'm not the best poker player, but I think both of these raises are crazier than my limp. A lot of players in these tournaments only think on an elementary level and will call off with top pair if I flop an overpair. I agree that as a rule, limping JJ UTG loses value, but in a 4.40 180 man, is it that unvaluable? I also kind of agree with the argument that the buy in to this tournament does matter. The best 180 man SNG strategy I've ever read (it's on this forum) has a quote about jamming AK, KK, and AA on the flop with top pair or better and: "If I'm beat, I'll just hop in the next one." I think this is an important tournament distinction for a SNG, especially one with this format. I would never EVER consider calling in my spot with JJ in a tournament or live sng, or cash game. However, my question was what to do in this $4.40. In these type of tournaments it would not have surprised me to see 22 and 33 raising the action like that. I know JJ is an obvious fold, but I was asking about this situation specifically.

[Sheiky 0]

I also kind of agree with the argument that the buy in to this tournament does matter. The best 180 man SNG strategy I've ever read (it's on this forum) has a quote about jamming AK, KK, and AA on the flop with top pair or better and: "If I'm beat, I'll just hop in the next one." I think this is an important tournament distinction for a SNG, especially one with this format. I would never EVER consider calling in my spot with JJ in a tournament or live sng, or cash game. However, my question was what to do in this $4.40. In these type of tournaments it would not have surprised me to see 22 and 33 raising the action like that. I know JJ is an obvious fold, but I was asking about this situation specifically.

One day, you'll realise how utterly ridiculous this thinking is, and that day you'll become a much better poker player.

[Mercury69 3]

One day, you'll realise how utterly ridiculous this thinking is, and that day you'll become a much better poker player.

I'd like you to elaborate, Sheiky. Although I sort of understand what you're getting at, I think part of the reasoning for these low buy-in tourneys has to do with the approach a lot of the OTHER players are taking. If you're going to play a 4.40 the same as a $50 tourney, I hope you have the ability to let go of the crazy plays (and not tilt) you'll see in a 4.40 that you DON'T see in a $50.Yes, you can play the exact same style in both, but you're going to be extremely frustrated to find the bulk of the field in that 4.40 won't be playing what YOU consider "good poker". My comments are not intended to advocate a loosey goosey "Who cares?" approach. Rather, it's got more to do with adjusting your style to fit the circumstances.

[sjm20 0]

Rather, it's got more to do with adjusting your style to fit the circumstances.

This is exactly what I was trying to say.

[Sheiky 0]

I'd like you to elaborate, Sheiky. Although I sort of understand what you're getting at, I think part of the reasoning for these low buy-in tourneys has to do with the approach a lot of the OTHER players are taking. If you're going to play a 4.40 the same as a $50 tourney, I hope you have the ability to let go of the crazy plays (and not tilt) you'll see in a 4.40 that you DON'T see in a $50.Yes, you can play the exact same style in both, but you're going to be extremely frustrated to find the bulk of the field in that 4.40 won't be playing what YOU consider "good poker". My comments are not intended to advocate a loosey goosey "Who cares?" approach. Rather, it's got more to do with adjusting your style to fit the circumstances.

I agree entirely that you adjust your play to the standard of players you are playing against, that is undeniable.However, the point i was trying to make is that you shouldn't play any differently due to how much % of your bankroll you have at stake.The logic 'play differently because there is always another 4.40 to hop into' is wrong, and that is what i was trying to get at.Re-reading his post i see that he wasn't really saying that as much as i thought he was so yeh, that's my fault.

[Mercury69 3]

I agree entirely that you adjust your play to the standard of players you are playing against, that is undeniable.However, the point i was trying to make is that you shouldn't play any differently due to how much % of your bankroll you have at stake.The logic 'play differently because there is always another 4.40 to hop into' is wrong, and that is what i was trying to get at.Re-reading his post i see that he wasn't really saying that as much as i thought he was so yeh, that's my fault.

Thanks for the clarification, mate! Managing your BR properly is what you were referring to, specific-wise, so that makes sense. I'm not so good at BR management, so I tend to overlook that aspect :-)

[nobody610 0]

Ill add my 2 cents. Unlike everyone else I don't mind limping UTG with the jacks especially this early in the tourney. It does disguise your hand. I think the point where you need to take control is after the button raises. This is where you make your decision. Just calling opens the door for the original raiser to re hit it and now your stuck guessing. I think your option is to fold out or push yourself before the action gets back to the original raiser. The fact that you limped and then went all in will definitely confuse the opposition. Also if you are playing in a lower buy in tourney I don't think it would be uncommon for you to have the best hand going here, even if just marginally.

[HijackedAffairs 0]

I don't like limping preflop with Jacks. Puts in a tough spot when it's raised back to you. With Jacks I think it's better to raise and define your hand rather than be deceptive. I also think in playing them for set value you are losing a lot of value.

[sjm20 0]

Ok, new question. What do YOU raise this to UTG? Do you make it a standard 2.5 to 3x? Or adjust for being out of position.Finally, if you raise here, the CO reraises, and the button reraises, is it still an easy fold?

[HijackedAffairs 0]

First question: 4x the big blind. You want a stronger raise than normal early in these 4.40's because they are so loose.Second question: Yes it is an easy fold. The button's range without reads is QQ-AA and sometimes AK. Wait for a better spot.

[XXEddie 0]

preflop minraises dont scare me any more.OP already said the guy who made it 200 has been raising a lot early, so he has WIDE range. And this is a $4.40. The play here is so bad I am instashoving after the raise/min-raise. If they have bigger pair, or outdraw, mer, reg for the next one

[NEtwowilldo 0]

Limping is a huge mistake. Open raise, and it's not close.Flat calling a massive raise and a reraise is a huge mistake. They aren't both going crazy with TT or 99 here.Folding is a pretty simple decision against two players shoving.

Folding to the button's re-raise is 100% standard.

I disagree. In a $4.40 180, JJ is definitely not a hand we fold pretty much ever. If i were you I would have standard raised, and shoved on any min re raise. No Question.

[NEtwowilldo 0]

I agree with Eddie 100%Also, check out my new blog below.