Please Tell Me If Im Going Crazy

[antistuff 0]

im down a ton over the past 5000 hands. things like this keep happening.am i missing something here? did he play his hand ok?and what am i supposed to do when a turn hits like that? not a bad beat. i want to know what you think of the way he played his hand. -------Full Tilt PokerPot Limit Omaha Hi/Lo Ring gameBlinds: $0.25/$0.506 playersConverterStack sizes:UTG: $27.35UTG+1: $14.85CO: $56.60Button: $24.30Hero: $95.10BB: $21.45Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is SB with T A A 2 UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, CO raises to $2.75, Button folds, Hero raises to $9.75, 3 folds, CO calls.Flop: Q 4 A ($21, 2 players)Hero bets $21, CO calls.Turn: 2 ($63, 2 players)Hero bets $63, CO calls all-in $25.85.Uncalled bets: $37.15 returned to Hero. River: 3 ($114.7, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $114.7)Results:Final pot: $114.7CO showed 8d As 5d 3sHero showed Th Ah Ac 2d

[rvrchsrhtr 0]

I think he made a pretty loose call on the flop, but being heads up not horrible I suppose? On the turn I guess you could have made a blocker bet around $12 would've looked pretty weak though. I think it's just one of those hands where you just got fkd. I don't know what anyone else thinks, but I play pre and after flop the same fwiw

[Frez 0]

It's an OK, not great but OK, hand and in the CO I think it's an easy raise in position to buy the button. He can call your repot, but it should set of the alarm bells. You've either got AAXX or a very nice A2XX, unless there has been some marginal steal/resteal going on recently.Flop might be borderline. Given your PF repot, he really can't think he's in very good shape here. I would not mind the call if he has 2 pair and 2nd low draw. The BDFD adds a little value, but not a lot. As it is he can't think he's in any better shape than an OK low draw and well behind for high.Very shitty turn

[antistuff 0]

I think he made a pretty loose call on the flop, but being heads up not horrible I suppose? On the turn I guess you could have made a blocker bet around $12 would've looked pretty weak though. I think it's just one of those hands where you just got fkd. I don't know what anyone else thinks, but I play pre and after flop the same fwiw

bet $12 to fold to a raise of around $12 in a then 90ish pot? i'de have odds to call if he fliped over his hand. he just didn't seem like a bad player and he was so smug making fun of me after i lost this i really question if maybe he knows something i don't here. assume that i get it in on the turn no matter what card hits.if a 2 hits well thats great for him. if any other low card hits he is free rolling me for the river. if a high card or the board pairs he can fold the turn. i think the math might work out, but he has to pray i dont have a better low draw than him.

[sholden 0]

Turn card sucked, but he has so few chips you can't fold, you do have outs to the top boat after all (for the high). And if you're going to call you might as well just bet it...

[rvrchsrhtr 0]

bet $12 to fold to a raise of around $12 in a then 90ish pot? i'de have odds to call if he fliped over his hand. I agree I was just trying to come up with something you could've done different. Like I said I think his flop call was way loose. As far as him berating you after the win he's either an idiot or just trying to put you on tilt.Had you been raising and betting one way high only hands or something?

[jmbreslin 0]

This is probably going to sound insane, but I'm still learning this game. Here goes...Would anyone consider slowing down when that flop comes? When the A falls on the flop with only the 4 as the other low card, Hero basically loses any hope of hitting a winning low hand, so at that point he's basically playing for the high only. With CO raising PF and calling Hero's reraise, Hero must assume he has good, which makes that A4 on the flop very threatening. Not only has Hero basically lost his low potential, but he now has to worry about the nut low straight beating his set of Aces.It seems to me like this is a hand that had a lot of potential, but the combination of that flop and an active villain has destroyed much of that potential. Hero is now basically playing for half the pot at best, with a half-decent chance he's going to get scooped.I recently read something about distinguishing between "push" and "pull" hands in O8 - push hands are the very strong hands with redraw potential that you want to play hard, while pull hands are the ones that are good now but have no potential or are nothing now but have decent draw potential, and so you should play them as check-call hands rather than playing them hard. I wonder if Hero's hand has become a pull hand on the flop.Is this completely retarded?

[ahosang 0]

This is probably going to sound insane, but I'm still learning this game. Here goes...Would anyone consider slowing down when that flop comes? When the A falls on the flop with only the 4 as the other low card, Hero basically loses any hope of hitting a winning low hand, so at that point he's basically playing for the high only. With CO raising PF and calling Hero's reraise, Hero must assume he has good, which makes that A4 on the flop very threatening. Not only has Hero basically lost his low potential, but he now has to worry about the nut low straight beating his set of Aces.It seems to me like this is a hand that had a lot of potential, but the combination of that flop and an active villain has destroyed much of that potential. Hero is now basically playing for half the pot at best, with a half-decent chance he's going to get scooped.I recently read something about distinguishing between "push" and "pull" hands in O8 - push hands are the very strong hands with redraw potential that you want to play hard, while pull hands are the ones that are good now but have no potential or are nothing now but have decent draw potential, and so you should play them as check-call hands rather than playing them hard. I wonder if Hero's hand has become a pull hand on the flop.Is this completely retarded?

That's a good post from someone just learning the game, but the concept in that post is generally geared toward a more multi-way situation. In this hand, there is a large pot from 3-betting pre-flop, and it's HU on the flop. Hero's best shot long-term is to bet.

[sholden 0]

This is probably going to sound insane, but I'm still learning this game. Here goes...Would anyone consider slowing down when that flop comes? When the A falls on the flop with only the 4 as the other low card, Hero basically loses any hope of hitting a winning low hand, so at that point he's basically playing for the high only. With CO raising PF and calling Hero's reraise, Hero must assume he has good, which makes that A4 on the flop very threatening. Not only has Hero basically lost his low potential, but he now has to worry about the nut low straight beating his set of Aces.It seems to me like this is a hand that had a lot of potential, but the combination of that flop and an active villain has destroyed much of that potential. Hero is now basically playing for half the pot at best, with a half-decent chance he's going to get scooped.I recently read something about distinguishing between "push" and "pull" hands in O8 - push hands are the very strong hands with redraw potential that you want to play hard, while pull hands are the ones that are good now but have no potential or are nothing now but have decent draw potential, and so you should play them as check-call hands rather than playing them hard. I wonder if Hero's hand has become a pull hand on the flop.Is this completely retarded?

I'm potting the flop.It's a cash game and your equity is >50% against everything (I think anyway) except the wheel wrap, so getting chips in the middle is good. I'm also happy with a low draw folding.

[navybuttons 15]

standard.

[antistuff 0]

standard.

for both players? i should be calling that flop with a53?

[navybuttons 15]

for both players? i should be calling that flop with a53?

i meant your play.villain's preflop play is fine. even if your hand was face up (so villain could play the turn perfectly), i think his flop call was bad.btw, i do think your hand is pretty face up here, but oh well.

[Rocketwadster 0]

From Ribbo (I copied and pasted it - hope he doesn't mind - his website ribbo.com is free to look at, so I wouldn't think it to be a problem)Bad Flops that look like Good FlopsTuesday, 24th January, 2006 You hold AAKQThe flop comes A48. You would be surprised at the number of players who lose their roll on this flop in a game of pot limit omaha/8This is one of the worst flops for new players to have. They have nut high on the flop and they are always told to protect their hand. However what becomes immediately obvious is that should there be a showdown, at no point can they win more than 50% of the pot. What this means heads-up is if on the flop, turn and river you bet a total of $200, you can get back, no more than $200. Doesn't look like a very good prospect to me. What you need to do is check and fold to a pot bet. If someone makes a very small bet, then sure tag along for the ride. You might hit your full house and find people go to war on low, but if anyone bets a significant amount of the pot (say higher than 20% on the flop) then you should simply fold. The main reason for this is that there are too many cards on the turn that can hit which makes it impossible for you to call any bet on a later street.On an A48 flop, any 23567 makes a straight the nut high. When you have a return of no greater than 50%, you should not bet, you do not want to be building a pot where you cannot scoop. On the river should say a 9 and king hit, then you will still have the nut high. At this point you can bet as your return is a minimum 100% of any bet you make, it increases depending on you betting either big and hoping no players call, small and hoping multiple players call, or big and hoping multiple players call. How you should bet is dependant on the style of the game, but if you have gotten to the river with this hand, then it's fairly safe to say it's a tight passive game and a small bet hoping to get many callers is your best chance. Wintermute found this out to his cost just recently when we were both sat in the same game. He limped in with AA and 2 high cards with my good self sat in the small blind.We saw a flop of As 2s 6d. I held 2d 3d 3s 4s. 7 people saw the flop for $4 each with myself first to act. Being first in this position I don't want to give my hand away. I have nut low with a small flush draw, more importantly I have two of the 3's in the deck, this means someone else holding nut low is less likely. I don't want to lead out the betting, I would much prefer someone with a high hand to bet out so I can flat call, hopefully getting some other callers along the way. My plan is to build the pot, then bet out my low once the pot is large and hope for a scare card to hit so I can bet large again and force high to fold the best hand and let me scoop. Anyway I digress, Wintermute bet the pot with his AAA, I flat call for $28, everyone else folded. On the flop straight away my minimum return is 50%, Wintermute's maximum return is 50%. From the flop onwards any money put into the pot by myself I am guaranteed back, any money Wintermute puts in doesn't earn him a cent and has a considerable chance of losing it all. The turn comes and it is a 9, not improving my hand. I should now bet here. If I check I would expect Wintermute to check behind me, since he should know I have a good hand here and if he bets, it's extremely unlikely I will fold since I called on the flop with 5 players after me still to act which suggests a VERY strong hand. So I should bet, because firstly I am probably freerolling my opponent and secondly if he does have 34, my pair of threes is probably good for high (stupid as it may seem). I expect to scoop with a 5 or a spade though. Wintermute calls. Some may say this is a good call because he has correct odds (he needs 33.3% or better, he actually has 37.5% equity). This is not true, because this assumes that he will make the correct decision on the river 100% of the time. If the river is a 5 and I bet $30 can he fold? If the river is a spade and I bet $30 can he fold? If the river is a 3, 4, 7,8 or ten and I bet the pot, can he correctly call each time? The river was a 3, I bet the pot of just shy of $230, Wintermute had a long think before passing. He knew I was on low by my bet on the turn, and 345x is a legitimate holding for me to have, so when the 3 hits the river with me betting the pot it makes it an extremely difficult decision. I would estimate his true equity to be closer to 20% given the scare cards that can hit the river, plus the times when I do scoop and he calls incorrectly. The reason for my betting the river is I had a set and second nut low, my opponent probably doesn't have 45, and probably doesn't have AA4x. I am more than likely good for atleast half heads-up and by betting I give myself a chance to win it all.The whole situation could have been avoided by Wintermute checking the flop and realising probably 4 of the players he was with on the flop had a low, and in 100% of those cases, they were freerolling him if they got heads-up. What he really wants is to take the free card offered to him and hope the board pairs. In a situation like this, then he becomes the player freerolling the lows. Since he can't lose high (barring some freak straight flush river), he can bet aggressively and hope that the river counterfeits the made low hand so he can bet the player off the pot with a huge river bet. Also of course he can win then by getting 2 players with nut low into a war.Indeed had he checked the flop, I would have bet the pot on the turn, should he have called this bet, with the river hitting I may well have checked being out of position with a now, non nut low hand and a straight showing. He could then bet his set of aces confident that the only hand that beats him (the 45) is not in my hand, and hope that his river bet makes me pass.Indeed it would be his position that gives him the advantage and not his cards.Now this may appear like harsh criticism of Wintermute, but it isn't. Even though he knows what he did on the flop is wrong and I am 100% sure of this, it's a mistake everyone, myself included, makes from time to time. It is this blinkered vision of the hand you are holding, being completely ignorant to the possible holdings of the other players that causes trouble. We are all guilty of this, but we must learn these situations and be mentally strong when they do occur. This was not a case of me outplaying Wintermute, at no point did I make a tricky bet. This was a case of Wintermute not being focused properly on the situation in hand right from the start. Food for thought gents (and any ladies in the house).

[antistuff 0]

............

yep. this is why a hand like 2346 is so good in a raised multiway pot. the situation on the flop in the hand i posted was significantly different though. in retrospect it was a dumb hand to post, as its very obvious his call is horrible against my range even though in this instance his call was mathematically correct against my hand.

[Rocketwadster 0]

yep. this is why a hand like 2346 is so good in a raised multiway pot. the situation on the flop in the hand i posted was significantly different though. in retrospect it was a dumb hand to post, as its very obvious his call is horrible against my range even though in this instance his call was mathematically correct against my hand.

I agree that the hand you posted is differnt (in that there were only two cards to a low on board on the flop), but the concepts that Ribbo talks about are very similar, in that this flop is not a great flop (its good, but not great) for your hand when you think about it, even though you have the nuts right now.

[Rocketwadster 0]

I am very surprised by the lack of responses to the "Ribbo" comments I placed in this topic, as I believe that the concepts he discusses are very relavent to hands such as this. I thought for sure that there would be tons of back and forth discussions, but alas, no. Maybe I'll copy some of Rolf Slotboom's articles and see how they fare...lol

[jmbreslin 0]

On the flop the hands aren't too similar but once the 2 hits on the turn it basically becomes the same situation as quoted above. Hero now has zero chance of hitting a low hand, while the chances are very good that villain has hit his low hand. And not only that, but the A-5 straight is a real threat too. With that one turn card the hand goes from looking very good for Hero on the flop to looking like Hero may get scooped.I don't think there is anything Hero could have done to avoid the situation, however. Slowing down on the turn won't accomplish anything, because villain will be giving Hero almost 4-1 odds on the turn if he pushes his last $25. If villain had a larger stack in front of him, an argument could be made for check-folding to a pot-bet...couldn't it?

[antistuff 0]

On the flop the hands aren't too similar but once the 2 hits on the turn it basically becomes the same situation as quoted above. Hero now has zero chance of hitting a low hand, while the chances are very good that villain has hit his low hand. And not only that, but the A-5 straight is a real threat too. With that one turn card the hand goes from looking very good for Hero on the flop to looking like Hero may get scooped.I don't think there is anything Hero could have done to avoid the situation, however. Slowing down on the turn won't accomplish anything, because villain will be giving Hero almost 4-1 odds on the turn if he pushes his last $25. If villain had a larger stack in front of him, an argument could be made for check-folding to a pot-bet...couldn't it? some villains will call that flop with 23xx and pot the turn when you check to them.