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Can't Sleep Over This...


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ughhh still 2 days of work gone by and all ive thought about lol.Thanks for all the analysis guys....
lol. I know the pain man. That's tournament poker in a nutshell. All you can do is get on the horse and play another. Lots of good advice and opinions in this thread. The next time you make that move, it'll even out and you'll feel like (and possible earn) a million bucks. And you've achieved the ultimate in the tourney strat forum: You've posted a legit question that got us all throwing daggers at one another. congrats. :club:
Keep it up with your sarcastic rhetoric and meaningless buzz words like "unmade hand". It's all you got at this point. You assume a lot about my posts that I never stated. I'm not saying play AK like it's AA, I'm saying you are crushing his range in this hand with AK and it is a good situation for you. The mantra of "don't overplay AK" seems to have been beaten into your head but you don't seem to have any idea of when to play AK strongly. This is definitely one of the times to play AK strongly.
All I got? Are you joking? Anyone who's had serious money on the line in these situations *knows* how insane these situations are. "Unmade hand" is *not* a buzz word.We're not "crushing his range", we're crushing AQ. The flat-call totally screws this hand up. Facts in evidence are that the Villain chose to enter the pot and enter it for a large re-raise. It's no longer zero-sum with a shorty all in, he's not nearly as likely to make a move as he would if we just opened for a raise. He pretty much has to have something. If you re-rasie over the shorty's all-in like a good boy, then called the all in re-raise, then congrats on going broke and feeling great about it. It's the right play. It gets you right to the tournament lobby fairly often, but it's the right play. Go for first, try and win the tournament on every hand. It's how the average tourney guy plays, and part of the reason the guys who can really help us don't bother posting in these forums anymore: fighting the books, math, and optomistic ranges. In fact, most the guys I've sweated while privy to hole card info who've cashed at or near top of totem pole in the bigger tourneyshave made some wacky PF laydown with hands like JJ, QQ, AK, and the popular AQ. This forum would be nothing but "fold preflop" and "instashove" if it wasn't for opinions. The difference between me and you is this:Me: hmm.. as played, I might have laid that down, given villains image and the risk v. reward.You: MUST SHOVE MUST RAISE MUST FLIP COIN IN CASE HES AT BOTTOM OF RANGE!The difference is: I'm stating an opinion, you're getting angry and demanding to be recognized as lord and conqueror of meta-game philosophy and MTT doctrine.I really don't even care if I'm "right" or you're "right". We play differently. I have my success, you have yours. All you've succeeded in doing is reminding me why I stopped popping my head in here in the first place. Congrats.
Don't be a prick. Cappy is right.
lol I wouldn't necessarily say I'm "right", It's more of a style and approach thing.If everyone went completely by the math, MTTs would be entirely coinflips and chaos. Math is long term. Tourneys are short term. Sometimes you need to go against the math. Not often, 'cause you do need to be willing to die to live, as Amir Vahedi said. But you can't just blindly play one way all the time. It's why these are called "situations", with "table dynamics".
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As played the consensus seems to be push or fold to his raise. Hes got a huge range now that youve only called, and I cant see folding. Is pushing right? You fold out some hands that youd be racing against, but not many. I think hes got a very clear read on your hand at this point, and knows he's almost certainly racing from ahead against AK.what else flats with 2 or 3 player behind, but can consider pushing? So if you push youre getting called by TT+, AK at the loosest, and youre folding out maybe 88, 99, AQ. If you flat his raise you are committed if an A or K flop, but have a decent stack if you have to fold to a blank, but youve give up that FE.Chip wise its probably pretty close, i dont have time to stove all the possibilities right now. My gut reaction is that I dont want to repop because Im racing at best and could be getting crushed by AA, KK.Interesting hand.
god bless you. You were missed in this discussion greatly. Excellent points, all of them. Flat-calling the shorty has made all options disasters against shown strength from the big blind.
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This is not helpful in the least bit as it doesn't do a damn thing to help the analysis of the hand that is going on. Yeah, it's great to wait till post flop but at what point in the hand does that seem like a good option? You must be one of those people who limps PF constantly?
You must have missed my original reply where i analyzed the hand.... honest mistake....IMO
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Three things, then I'm done with this thread:1. I have played for these stakes before. I know what it's like. It's tough, it's a lot of money for low-mid stake tourny players and you always think about your knock out hand.2. Marc-O, you play well from what I can tell. Keep doing what you are doing3. Cappy, check your PMs.

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aight.. this is my last post on this topic, too.Finally figured out the clearest and most concise way to defend my position:Once we botch the initial play, and villain puts in a big re-raise: we know four things:1. ) We're very, very likely to get called 2. ) We're likely to be behind 45/55 or worse3. ) We've only invested roughly 7% of our chips as played.4. ) We've turned our hand face up (as Copernicus said) against an experienced player. Hands we "beat" will be folded.Simo's point of a defining read is important, too. If we've seen this guy build chips overplaying KQ, middle-aces, and small pairs, then we can lean toward call pretty easily, for reasons others have stated (loose range). Once we limp and he takes any "play" away from us, he can turn 14 hands face up that we'd be happy to avoid, and a couple potential hands we'd beat him into the pot with (AQ/AJ/AT/KQ). It's far easier to sleep at night to make a move that doesn't work out. It's pure night terrors to call off 45+ bbs and likely flipping a coin or worse.Some great discussion in this thread, well played by all. Hugs, kisses, and warm puppy dogs for all.

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Cappy, how are you not playing in the Sunday Majors on a regular basis?????You're far far too good to keep playing micros!!!!

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Hijacked and Cappy.... it was a great discussion..... hope to have more soon...I havent been on FCP in a long time, and forgot that it's still a good strat forum and intelligent discussionsbtw... now wednesday... i think im developing an ulcer ... lol

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Cappy, how are you not playing in the Sunday Majors on a regular basis?????You're far far too good to keep playing micros!!!!
Because I excel at that micro level. Which is why my advice is inherently flawed. You can survive well into the money easily at that level by just playing your cards, playing your opponents, and making strong decisions. I'm not even remotely qualified to tell someone how to win a major, and I'll be the first to tell you that.In this example, taking a coin flip against a strong player for a change to really finish deep is certainly the "correct" play if we play the hand like we are supposed to "raise to isolate, evaluate BB's range to a re-raise, etc.".However if it's you, him, and 7 donkeys, your chips are a lot more valuable than busting out on a flip against a guy with a considerably tighter range than his counterparts. That's more of a cash game philosophy though (i generally play cash these days, which is why my OPR is almost blank at this point unless you dig back): I'll purposely stay away from the strong player I have notes on at the table without a huge hand, because he's the one least likely to give me legit action if I hit a marginal hand, and least likely to give me credit on continuation bets/stack off on TPTK/etc.This strat forum, of course, is based generally on up and coming players posting questions on situations that arise in their play. The seasoned vets (Simo, Bears, Hijacked, Copernicus, Beaver, etc) give great information and advice, but that advice is not always tailored to the limits and structures the Original Poster is coming from. Which is why an array of opinions is often needed. For example: the key in this situation is the value of Ace-King. The great strength in the hand comes from being aggressive with it: all the money you pick up without confrontation/without showdown, coupled with the weaker ace-x and king-x hands you dominate make it a fantastic hand to push and react with.Calling with AK is a different story, however, depending on ranges and situation. It's an odd hand in that it's rarely in bad shape, but it's a coinflip against an awful lot. You certainly love playing it against shorty pushes, because you absolutely hammer that range (you see weak aces and strong kings a lot here). But it's a lot trickier when someone's shown great strength ahead of you.Simplifying the process is the best way to go: aggressive re-raising and pushing with it picks up a ton of dead money, and when you are played back at you are *rarely* in bad shape. Taking a coinflip once you are getting better than 2-1 on your money is a perfectly fine situation to be in.In the question in this thread, the hand was misplayed to the point you are looking at the big blind being the aggressor (so the blinds/antes barely help your pot odds). You've put so little into the pot you aren't getting good pot-odds at all, and it's unlikely the BB is tossing his hand after the big raise, so you have to showdown in what is most likely a flip. This is an example of a time you can get away pretty cheaply. Plus you have to actually beat the shorty, so if he's got a legit hand that can hit the right flop and beat you, you can still "win the hand" and not get paid in full anyways. I know, it's doomsday thinking, but this is one of those random spots that *as played* you can certainly let go.And yeah, you fold he flips over AK, you call he flips over Jacks. :D That's the part the pros keep hush about.Ten million times better to re-raise pre-flop, get pot-committed, and strap on the seatbelt. But if you mess up and flat-call, you can make a solid case for folding.I swear, I'm now done with this. no really. i meant it. this time. no more. not again. i quit. nothing to see here. :club:
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if we think the villain is not bluffing there is only one non bluffing hand - AQ- we would be thrilled to see. flat calling isn't really an option with our stack so we shovel or fold it. i lean towards a fold with very little to no fold equity if we re-pop. all math aside tournament experience is what has to carry you through these spots...this is just not a situation that the villain can be bluffing very often and if its not a bluff its a coin flip.

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