The Mathematics Of Poker

[socomo 0]

I've been doing a lot of studying recently, and have gotten into the math of poker. + or - EV plays, ICM, Pot Odds, equations to determine the best price of a river bet with the nuts, etc.. My question is, isn't the math of poker and all of the equations unnecessary if you have a solid grasp of the concepts? Like, I know I'm better to play premium hands pre-flop, so does it stand to say that I should know the EV of the play? Uhm, I hope I explained this properly.Maybe, it's what some people call 'feel'? I guess I'm thinking that the math is just the explanation for the good plays you make based on a really good feel and understanding of how the game works (sans math).

[Sheiky 0]

There's no right or wrong.10 years ago before the internet age most players would not be that aware of the math an i don't even think EV had been invented then. Nowadays, it's common practice.There's nothing wrong with playing by feel, but what i think is that a lot of 'feel' players have a lot of leaks due to their mathematical ineptitude but these are masked because they are better in other areas of the game.It doesn't hurt to learn the math, and i think it'd benefit most people who learnt more about it, or at least the concepts behind it.Also, just because you don't 'know' it, if you're a winning player you probably play by the outcomes it dictate without realising it.For example, you are playing $100nl, a player in EP raises to $12, it folds to you on the button and you look down at 44.Math orientated people would be likely to think "the odds of me hitting a set are 7.5 to one, but i read a post on the internet that said you should only call with set-value hands if you are getting 10-1 implied odds, i only have $100 to win and it's costing me $12 to play, i don't have the rights odds so i'll fold"A 'feel' player would just say "Phft, that's too much for a pocket pair, i fold".

[HighwayStar 8]

For me (a maths student), understanding the maths of poker will get you a certain way, but a feel for the situations you encounter and your opponents is key.I've read Sklanskys Advanced Tournament Play book, understood it but finished it thinking most of it is completely unapplicable when you are actually playing. Some of the EV calculations he makes are great would be impossible to make when you are playing.

[socomo 0]

There's nothing wrong with playing by feel, but what i think is that a lot of 'feel' players have a lot of leaks due to their mathematical ineptitude but these are masked because they are better in other areas of the game.It doesn't hurt to learn the math, and i think it'd benefit most people who learnt more about it, or at least the concepts behind it.Also, just because you don't 'know' it, if you're a winning player you probably play by the outcomes it dictate without realising it.

Agreed! Exactly 100% what I was thinking. I just wondered if I was missing something huge with all the math talk that goes on.Thanks.

[socomo 0]

I've read Sklanskys Advanced Tournament Play book, understood it but finished it thinking most of it is completely unapplicable when you are actually playing. Some of the EV calculations he makes are great would be impossible to make when you are playing.

Well that's the other thing, isn't it?What you're left with is an approximation for a given situation. This in turn becomes an instinct and part of your normal play, not that you know what the exact numbers are. Now you're working with 'feel'.

[Zach6668 513]

The math is something that (if you want to) you should focus on in your study time, away from the table.Obviously at the table, there's no time for complex mathematical analysis, but when you're done your session, if you go over your hands, and solve them for the right plays, mathematically, you just might find something that surprises you, or you learn something new, or best of all, the numbers and equities, etc get burned into your head, and it becomes part of that "feel" thing everybody loves to talk about.

[Frez 0]

Broadly speaking, you need two skill sets to play great poker. One is 'feel' (betting patterns, reading people etc), the other is technical (starting hands, positional issues and all the math stuff).The people who are too lazy to learn the math say that all you need is feel.Math guys like me say I'll learn the math (with extra study away from the table) and add that to the 'feel' aspects.Would you bring a knife to a gun fight? Or show up with only half the ammunition of your opponents.Learn the math, it will never be a bad thing.

[Zach6668 513]

A lot of what the "feel players" call "feel" is just intuitive application of the math that they either learned specifically, or that they've picked up over years of playing the game.Feel can be enhanced a LOT by learning the underlying mathematical basis of poker.

[HighwayStar 8]

Talking about No Limit Tournaments here, there are far far too many situations for you to go over, the number of possibilities for position/betting/M's/hole cards/flop/turn/river is a ridiculously high number. For me, I try to realise the bad plays I make after a tournament and learn from it, however sometimes "-EV" plays will bring you positive results in tournament play. I'm sure I heard Daniel say that once. I analyse each situation as it occurs, and most of these will be unique.Playing online you need a definite understanding of the maths but I think I'm playing my best when I'm playing the other player - trying to get a read on their hand/sensing tilt/seeing betting patterns. Trying to add an extra element on top of the underlying mathematics of the hand.That being said, at micro/low limits anyway, I definitely think you can make +$$ playing ABC poker, sometimes trying to think above that is trying to be too clever and you can lose, most players don't see past their own hand.In cash game play I think it's different, if you make the correct EV play an infinite number of times, you will win. As for limit, I don't play Limit Hold Em enough (my bad, I really should) to know how maths applies there, although I'm assuming it's a very strong factor. The other games seem quite ABC to me, although I don't try to play them as anything else, I'm sure there are extra elements though.

[antistuff 0]

when you start doing poker math you will notice that you have to make a lot of assumptions. making those assumptions is what most people mean by feel. if you don't know the math you might make perfect assumptions but sometimes use them slightly incorrectly. most players who have learned to make good assumptions have an intuitive understanding of how to apply them. they are using math, they just don't know it. not the best paragraph i've ever written in my life but i think it gets my point across.

[jmkiser 0]

It's much simpler then it sounds.Poker is something you are practicing. You are playing different situations over and over and over again. You know what it's like to have 4 to a flush on the flop and facing a bet. In your head, you're wondering what to do.Well, the first math deal is knowing that you're 4-1 to hit your flush. If you just remember that every time you're in the situation, then you're not REALLY doing much of any math. The pot is $20 and he is betting $15... you don't have to do any intense calculations to know that he blew away any odds that you had to call. With that simple memorization of the odds, pots odds are plenty easy to calculate... the next level is then implied odds. Again, you're 4 to a flush and the pot is $20 and he bets $15 ... if he's only got another $5 behind him, then that's all you can win if you hit your flush. If he's got $1000 behind him that you can cover and get into the middle, then you meet the implied odds (we're looking at what you CAN win if you hit) to continue with this hand.You get to a point where you're not doing any thinking. You're just feeling through the game naturally. In limit for example, there are 5 people to the flop. You've got 4 to a flush and the guy to your right bets the flop. In your head, you're not thinking "4-1, how much does he have behind, etc etc etc", you already just know that there's enough money in the pot to draw by the amount of players in the pot around you. The "gametime" math is done over and over and over again that it becomes the same as memorizing your multiplication tables. When you think of 3 times 3, you don't think of 3 + 3 + 3, you just know it's 9 because you've done it a bajillion times. The same works for math at the poker table.

[Frez 0]

Talking about No Limit Tournaments here, there are far far too many situations for you to go over, the number of possibilities for position/betting/M's/hole cards/flop/turn/river is a ridiculously high number.

This is an exageration - not wrong, just hyperbolized. It's not chess with 17 billion different variations of the next 10 moves.

The "gametime" math is done over and over and over again that it becomes the same as memorizing your multiplication tables. When you think of 3 times 3, you don't think of 3 + 3 + 3, you just know it's 9 because you've done it a bajillion times. The same works for math at the poker table.

This is way more accurate.