$1-5 Sng's...discussion Of Play, Specific Tactics And Folding

[arpinology 0]

I made a post about 2 months ago, and the replies on it truly changed how i looked at poker from then on. the thread might be gone, but the overall theme is IF YOU CANNOT BEAT BAD PLAYERS, HOW DO YOU EXPECT TO BEAT AVERAGE OR ABOVE-AVERAGE PLAYERS...and so my thread. I have seen a few replies regarding some issues about this subject but never a thread fully devoted to the topic.(this post involves NLHE f.y.i.)I am a micro-limit player. I buy-in to a poker site for the minimum, or maybe double the minimum, then grind out the sng's or ring games to make a little dough and hope to move up. i just don't though. I turned 10 dollars into 70 playing $2 sng's. then went broke.I deposited 50 and lost that in a week playing $2 6-handed sng's or 9-handed sng's. I re-deposited 50, went up to 75, then lost 70 of it. I went up playing $1 sng's, then lost it playing a combination of .05/.10 nlh/plh or $1-$2. I am currently at the $16 mark( i came up from to $16 from $6 as of 3 days ago.) I have searched and read/re-read what i can about low-limit sng strategy. I have read through Colin Moshman's Sit 'n Go Strategy book almost 2 times. i have looked at hand histories of my own play; hindsight is of course 20/20 though. i have discussed hands with friends, etc. typically my strategy for low-buy in sng play is to play premium hands(AA, KK, possibly AKs) in all positions, fold hands like A-Ko, A-Q, A-J, K-Q(off or suited) if in unfavorable conditions(like position, large raise, or raise, then re-raise, flat out get a read on the individual) and play suited connectors if i can limp with them(5-6s, 6-7s, 8-9s) or even play something like A-3s if i can limp or just have to call a small re-raise. whenever i enter a pot, i am aggressive on all streets(and cautiously look for weakness,) and i am in the pot to win it, and, based on my statistics as of late, i win a lot more pots than before and it appears that i am losing less money. smart bets, smart raises and especially smart folds. cautious, but aggressivei have also adopted a...very tight pot odds outlook...great pot odds and i am in. prior to the last week, if i was getting 3-1+ on my money, i was in there(with a reasonable hand of course.) there is always the bad beat/lack of respect at the table, but i contribute that to players being drunk, mentally ill-advised or...just plain bad at their game...and thus the suck out. i have eliminated any ring game play, or play of any other games except nlhe(i do occasionally play stud hi sng's and do very well in them, in my opinion, but i have stopped for the moment. plus they take FOREVER to fill up.) i read. i study. i re-study. i play. i evaluate. my big question...does anyone that has experience at these levels have any insight/critiques/criticisms about my play, or low-buy-in sng play? i cannot complain, as i have been on an up-swing, which i am grateful for. but i just want to plug some leaks in this, then confidently move on. i used to slay the 2 dollar sng's on full tilt, but now, i always bubble out*. overall, i do not want to re-deposit as i feel that that re-depositing is a cop out and i want to grind the current roll back up to 50...then beyond. thanks. arpinology*i have a fair assumption that part of my success of playing $2 sngs is based on school being out for high school/college students. example: i did well in them from july to august, but september i struggled, and i went broke in october. that is the time when college students and high school students are back in school/have class, etc.

[craiger 0]

First of all, if I can say one thing, let me say this: SNGs ARE THE DEVIL. They are designed for fast action, quick satisfaction, and attract the opposite kind of play you want. If your goal is to slowly grind it out and show a good profit, then stay the hell away from SNGs. Most players who make money off of online poker (small limits like myself, up to bigger limits) play SNGs as a relaxing way to pass time while waiting for a juicy cash table to open up, or a full field tournament to start. Use SNGs as a "quick fix" when you don't want to sit for 3 hours, or only have half an hour to play. Using SNGs to try and make money is a losing play in my opinion. But it sounds to me like your main sickness is bank roll swings, due to no-limit fever. Everyone wants to play no limit, because that's what we all see on TV, blah blah blah, it's the sexiest form of hold em. Whatever. But for a new-ish player, the best way to show a profit is to stick with limit. Your mistakes are not magnified by way of losing an entire buy-in in a single hand, and your good, solid play is rewarded slowly and surely. Trust me, I've lived it. Buy 'Small Stakes Hold'em' by Sklansky, Miller and Malmuth. Read it. Then read it again. Rip out the pot-odds / outs table in the first chapter and tape it to your monitor. Deposit $100, and start playing $0.1/$0.2 limit. You will be frustrated at times by losing to "bad players" catching "miracle draws". Don't be. Continue to play your premium hands aggressively, and value bet the shit out of everyone constantly. Eventually you will show a profit. Trust me, it works. I've turned my $100 into almost $600 in a couple months, and once I reach about $2000, I'll move up to $2/$4. It works. You just have to do your homework and study the game relentlessly. Good luck grasshopper.

[rvrchsrhtr 0]

If you want more info on playing SNG's online try reading Scott Fishman's book on the topic. He has a good way of approaching these tournaments and can help you make a profit IMO.

[kkot 0]

Using SNGs to try and make money is a losing play in my opinion.

I completely disagree. The micro SNGs are crushable if you have any idea what you're doing, especially around the bubble.

[Doug 0]

Yep Micro sngs are definitely profitable. They're a much bigger grind than cash tables though. I got bored of them.

[TravisG 0]

the micro and low limit sngs are def. beatable. but after leaving a 4 tabling session of .5.10 with $65 on one table, $33 on another and and about $15 on 2 other tables after about 4 hours of play, i was done with sngs.

[whatgreatis 0]

I believe Timwakefield only plays SNG's. He'd be the man to talk to.

[Darth Maple 0]

First of all you seem a fairly decent player who know what he's doing.I would like to make two points:1.) Loosen up on your starting hands when there has been no raise before you, I like to raise but don't particularly like to call a raise. As the saying goes it takes a lot stronger hand to call a raise than it does to make a raise. Think about it.2.) It is not unusual for a successful player to go on a 10-20 SNG's losing run.

[jmbreslin 0]

I'm a micro NLHE player myself but I've focused primarily on SnGs rather than cash play. The advantage of micro SnGs over cash tables for someone with a small bankroll is that your losses are controlled because you're only risking your buyin. If you sit down at a cash table with $5, you're risking that $5. Anyway, here's my advice:1) Pick a game and stick with it. Don't jump around from game to game trying to make a profit. Cash NLHE is very different from 9-man SnGs, which are different from 6-max SnGs, which are different from 18-mans and 45-mans, etc. They all require a slightly different approach (and in some cases a very different approach).2) Cure yourself of Fancy Play Syndrome because fancy plays don't work against the micro stakes players you'll be facing. The kind of poker that wins at these tables (SnGs or cash) is solid, ABC poker.3) Learn from what you read but don't blindly apply it to the tables. Realize that almost everything that has been written on NLHE strategy assumes that you're facing half-decent opponents, which doesn't really apply to the micro tables. You basically have to filter everything you read through what I call a "micro stakes modifier."4) Avoid overly-general hard-and-fast rules, such as "if i was getting 3-1+ on my money, i was in there" and "whenever i enter a pot, i am aggressive on all streets." This suggests that perhaps one of your leaks is not focusing enough on analyzing each hand and each situation individually.5) If you're going to focus on $1 or $2 9-man SnGs, the recipe is fairly simple: be patient, and play tight-selective-aggressive poker. Wait for the fish to kill themselves off in the early stages while looking for chances to see cheap flops with good speculative hands if the pot odds are juicy. Avoid hands with poor risk/reward ratios in the early stages but bet your dominant hands hard. Don't take unnecessary risks on the bubble, these players have no concept of bubble strategy and you can often sneak into the money by sitting patiently and waiting for them to make mistakes. Once you're in the money you can turn up the aggression and focus on first place.

[HollywoodAFD 0]

"fold hands like A-Ko, A-Q, A-J, K-Q(off or suited)" --- I'm not sure why you do that. I don't think you can go into any game, be it SNG or Ring and operate predetermined like that. Maybe losen up your play a bit... depending on position and how the players at the table are playing... those could be winners many times.Another thing I've noticed from Micros is that very early on the donkeys play them just like that..micro amount so macro risk. It seems they look at it like.."Hell...I'm only in it for $2.20 soooo..ALL IN" and eventually you, or someone else, are going to get their chips but often not until they knock out a better player. (That's a whole other debate also) I play every tourney the same... be it micro or not. I mean if I'm going to play...even with the chance of only winning $150.. I'm going to play as if I had a $1500 buy-in.I asked this very question to Mike "the mouth" a while back on his radio show. His advise was to limp alot on these until the donkeys have all drown themselves.Just my opinion...but losen up your play a bit and maybe stay at the lower levels a bit longer. It sounds like you may be going up too early when you start to increase your bankroll.Again..just my opinion.

[tentenoffsuit 0]

Don't be scared to call all-ins with AK... you're probably giving up way too much value in your AK hands in the early stages. Someone said above that people are like "it's only 2.20 soooo allll-in"... which is completely true... If it's heads up i'm never laying down AK at any point during a sit n go when it's all-in preflop... you are VERY rarely dominated and most of the time you are dominating or in a coin-flip. And you just gotta win some coin flips sometimes. Depending on how the opponent has played the first round of hands i might call with AQ as well... I will lay down down AK if i raise, it's reraised all-in and someone calls that all-in... there's often too much risk there because surely one of them has an ace you'll need for the race if the other has an underpair. but many times i've seen an all-in and a call with A3 vs. AT or worse...

[kkot 0]

I dont really like this.

If it's heads up i'm never laying down AK at any point during a sit n go when it's all-in preflop.

I know I'm sort of taking this out of context, but just because it's a 2.2SNG doesn't mean we can assume every single person is a retard. We really need to be making individual reads instead of making blind assumptions based on buyin. If we are playing against unknowns, then we have to start making assumptions based on anything relevant. We really shouldn't be completely readless for too long though.

[donk4life 34]

If you're going to grind the micro SnGs.. You have to remain disciplined.. People say cash games are where the money is at, and that may be true, but that doesn't mean there isn't money to be made with SnGs.. The key is to remained focus..I 3 table 3.25 turbos right now.. It's tough.. It can get boring.. Because Breslin said, you can't get fancy-play syndrome.. You have to play a tight conservative game because players at these levels are going to make mistakes.. BUT, it doesn't take much to build a BR.. Sure it may only be 50 bucks a week, but considering what you have deposited, it's a major profitBreslin also mentioned that you shouldn't jump around, this is a great point, but it's very hard to hold to.. If you're going to grind the SnGs, STICK to specific SnGs.. I 3 table 3.25 Turbos, You can play 6 in an hour... and if you're any decent player, you can easily win half of these.. It won't take much to get a BR >500, and I assume the SnGs at the 11 or 12 dollar level are the same skill level..I'm sorry I don't really have any strategy involved in here.. I'm just giving my advice if you're going to grind.. Even I don't follow this advice, but when I do it's very profitable.. Oh.. I notice that you are a student... I'm not sure how flexible your scheduele is.. But I dedicate 4 hours a day 4 days a week to play.. I don't make much, but I have a job to back up the winnings.. I believe the key to SnGs is to not play everyday, because it can get frustrating and boring..

[tentenoffsuit 0]

I dont really like this. I know I'm sort of taking this out of context, but just because it's a 2.2SNG doesn't mean we can assume every single person is a retard. We really need to be making individual reads instead of making blind assumptions based on buyin. If we are playing against unknowns, then we have to start making assumptions based on anything relevant. We really shouldn't be completely readless for too long though.

Sorry, maybe i should clarify... i'm talking in the early levels.If you see a huge over-push early in these things it's almost never a super strong hand... i believe doubling up early in these is worth the risk and you will almost never find yourself dominated. Most "smart" players aren't going to open-push or re-raise a 3x's the BB bet by pushing in.... you'll find most of your donks are slow-play maniacs with their big hands... These low buy-ins are waiting games and you have to catch some cards (especially if you're playing the turbos). You're not going to see that many good hands. I'd rather take a chance early with AK to get a big stack than sit around and wait to push it all-in with A5 or 33 or something when you have no options left.

[Lucoo_ 0]

Hey i play at pokerstars and think i understand what kind of problem you got. Since a short while i have been multitabling 5.50 SNGs by 8 at a time. I started out by playing 4 at a time which is really do-able if you stick to the following: FOLD friggin everything but AA/KK/QQ/JJ and AK/AQ and AJ maybe if in position. DONT limp with suited connectors, just fold them even if its cheap and you get great odds or blablala, especially in the 1 dollar SNGs youre just gonna face the situation where you limp with these hand and some donk moves in behind you. Just FOLD FOLD FOLD !!! You can call with small pairs if its cheap, but if you dont hit your set on the flop just check-fold. If you do hit your set, LEAD OUT and RAISE the shit out of them, especially if an ace hits the board.Now if you do pick up the premium hands raise them almost always 4 times BB when the blinds are 10/20 15/30 or 25/50. If you got more than 1 limper in front raise it 5 times BB except for AA, you really dont want to scare anyone off with that. If a flop comes and you have an overpair play it hard and fast, bet 3/4 to full pot every time. DONT CONTINUATION BET with AK/AQ/AJ if you miss. Just check it and hope it will be checked around and otherwise just muck it. My starting hands dont really loosen up much when the blinds go up untill the point i drop below 10 times BB at which point its into push or fold mode. But still be very selective in your allins. I only start loosening up slowly when were getting down to 6 handed or below but not by much. This sometimes has the consequence you slowly start bleeding to death because of the blinds, but dont get desperate, keep playing selective. You are going to double up sometime ! And if you dont, you were just really carddead and couldnt help it. The only time you do want to loosen up in these SNGs is when youre down to the bubble 4 handed and you are the shortstack. In this case you will almost always be down to less than 10 BBs and you really have to push any pair and >A7/A8 and KQ/KJ and if you notice people folding a lot because of the bubble loosen up and start pushing from the button with pretty much everything. If you play like this you should be able to make the money about 3/4s of the time. Just remember to FOLD FOLD FOLD FOLD, even if you have a hand like T6 and youre on the small blind when blinds are 15/30 and there are 2 limpers. You would be getting 7 to 1 on youre money but just FOLD ! The structure in these SNGs doesnt allow you to play odds, you have to survive, you have to save those chips, cause every chip is going to be doubled by some donk when you pick up that big hand.

[MovingIn 0]

The key is to play a solid, selectively aggressive game, pick your spots and pick up pots where you can, don't get too committed to hands when raised unless you're holding the nuts, and let the donks knock themselves out, which they usually will. As stated above, the micro SNGs are loaded with loose, poor players.Moshman's SNG book has some helpful concepts to consider as well.

[AimHigher 0]

I completely disagree. The micro SNGs are crushable if you have any idea what you're doing, especially around the bubble.

Fact.I am currently crushing the $1.75 18 player turbos on stars and I am not even really average.