Bubba83 0 Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 1/2 NL at Full Tilt, 9 players at the table.Stack Sizes:Hero has $317MP1 has $302BB has $206Reads: BB is fairly new to the table, MP1 is a bit LAG and he just lost a moderately sized pot.Preflop: Hero is dealt T T in SB.2 folds, MP1 raises to $7, 4 folds, Hero calls, BB calls.Flop: 3 6 Q $21 in potHero...I feel like I play these sort of hands poorly. Feel free to evaluate preflop as well. Once we decide on a line for the flop I will post how I played it and if I got to a turn, we will continue from there. Link to post Share on other sites
mikeysong 0 Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 check/call flop and evaluate turn. Standard is to fold to 1 more bet after that. If you have any notes/reads on how he plays, that would be helpful : ) Link to post Share on other sites
Acid_Knight 2 Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 check/call flop and evaluate turn. Standard is to fold to 1 more bet after that. If you have any notes/reads on how he plays, that would be helpful : )This is my line as well. RRing preflop is a bit frisky, but not totally out of line. Link to post Share on other sites
mtdesmoines 3 Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 1/2 NL at Full Tilt, 9 players at the table.Stack Sizes:Hero has $317MP1 has $302BB has $206Reads: BB is fairly new to the table, MP1 is a bit LAG and he just lost a moderately sized pot.Preflop: Hero is dealt T T in SB.2 folds, MP1 raises to $7, 4 folds, Hero calls, BB calls.Flop: 3 6 Q $21 in potHero...I feel like I play these sort of hands poorly. Feel free to evaluate preflop as well. Once we decide on a line for the flop I will post how I played it and if I got to a turn, we will continue from there.OK, so I know we just went through this yesterday, but from the SB with TT, I would RR PF to redefine where we were. If I got called, I would c-bet 70% of the flop and check fold from there unimproved if I got called. Link to post Share on other sites
mikeysong 0 Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 OK, so I know we just went through this yesterday, but from the SB with TT, I would RR PF to redefine where we were. If I got called, I would c-bet 70% of the flop and check fold from there unimproved if I got called.nou want to get value from worse hands. If you rr and bet flop, u don't usually get called by worse. being oop, bloating pot w/TT, not fun. Link to post Share on other sites
mtdesmoines 3 Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 nou want to get value from worse hands. If you rr and bet flop, u don't usually get called by worse. being oop, bloating pot w/TT, not fun.the villain's raise is 2% of stacks ... we're here to play, right? Link to post Share on other sites
mikeysong 0 Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 the villain's raise is 2% of stacks ... we're here to play, right?obviously. what kind of smartass response is that. Altho I am surprised a nit like you wants to re-raise here, but you're doing it for the wrong reasons.TT is thin to re-raise oop. Why would you want to define your hand for villain? That's retarded. You raise for value or you raise for fold equity. You don't bet or raise for the purpose of him knowing whether you have a hand or not. A raise for value here is thin and dangerous. What do we do w/thin and dangerous cards out of position? Well, we don't bloat them. Link to post Share on other sites
mikeysong 0 Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 *edit*3betting TT is ok but not for desmoine's reasons.Some people have a style where they like to 3bet a lot. Imo this is one of those spots where calling > re-raising in terms of expected value. In some ways it is a harder route. However, bloating pots OOP w/this hand will also make things difficult. Link to post Share on other sites
mtdesmoines 3 Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 obviously. what kind of smartass response is that. Altho I am surprised a nit like you wants to re-raise here, but you're doing it for the wrong reasons. TT is thin to re-raise oop. Why would you want to define your hand for villain? That's retarded. You raise for value or you raise for fold equity. You don't bet or raise for the purpose of him knowing whether you have a hand or not. A raise for value here is thin and dangerous. What do we do w/thin and dangerous cards out of position? Well, we don't bloat them.LOL "nit"? Me? How does it happen that so many people in this forum have accused me of being nitty in the past couple months? Someone tell me the next time I make a nitty post, OK? ... anyway ... my point is that I think we have a lot of room to maneuver here with TT preflop, so I'm not ready to abandon it. We DO have a hand. Several things can happen: good: villain foldsgood: villain calls, we flop a set or turn a straight, etc.good: villain call, we c-bet, villain foldsgood: villain calls us down with ninesbad:villain calls, pumps pot on the flopbad: (sort of) villain re-raises Link to post Share on other sites
mikeysong 0 Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 yeah, I don't know why i said nit. Besides for this post, http://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poker-foru...14467&st=20 , I probably should've used some other words like retard.http://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poker-foru...howtopic=114964 not a fan of that one eitherHonestly, posting your thoughts is fine and that's how you learn as a poker player. But when you make posts like that, you make me want to donkeypunch you because it's simply horrible advice. And the point of strategy forums is for players to get better, not worse. I wish you wouldn't post like you're the smartest poker player in the forums but you do and it's amusing, tilting, but really just sad. There are a decent amount of fish out there, no reason to make everyone here worse. I'd like to see the forums here improve.-----------------------------------------good: villain folds - NO. Why? Do you want 87 to fold here? Or K 3? A5? good: villain calls, we flop a set or turn a straight, etc. - really? How often are we turning a straight, and how often does this happen without getting popped on a 789 flop?good: villain call, we c-bet, villain folds Yaygood: villain calls us down with nines ---- Are you really just targeting one hand? This situation plays like above more often than not but that's fine.bad:villain calls, pumps pot on the flopbad: (sort of) villain re-raises - how is this sort of? Are you fist pump shoving TT or calling a 4bet? of course it's bad, especially if he's not a maniac. Link to post Share on other sites
mtdesmoines 3 Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 yeah, I don't know why i said nit. Besides for this post,We can play this game all day. But I think it sucks. "It's funny, in both hands, if I had just hit A PAIR, I would've taken down the pot! Come on, how gross is that?" Link to post Share on other sites
Bubba83 0 Posted January 3, 2008 Author Share Posted January 3, 2008 Calm down guys... If either of you really think your advice is that much better than the others it will be confirmed by the rest of the posters shortly anyway. Let's try to not make things personal here, I welcome all advice even if it's not the way I think is best because at least it makes me realize why the way I think about it is better, etc.If we use check/call here, how large of a bet are we willing to call? Are we ever willing to check/raise depending on bet size? Link to post Share on other sites
mtdesmoines 3 Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 Calm down guys... If either of you really think your advice is that much better than the others it will be confirmed by the rest of the posters shortly anyway. Let's try to not make things personal here, I welcome all advice even if it's not the way I think is best because at least it makes me realize why the way I think about it is better, etc.If we use check/call here, how large of a bet are we willing to call? Are we ever willing to check/raise depending on bet size?The reason I don't like check/call/check/call is because it gets us a showdown with QJ. I really believe bet/fold is more profitable over the long term. Link to post Share on other sites
Sheiky 0 Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 I'm assuming you're calling most sized bets on the flop because you have no read on what his bets mean, i think.I'd check/call here, if the BB folded on the flop i'd look to lead a none A K turn, if the BB called i think it's probably best just to shut down. Link to post Share on other sites
Acid_Knight 2 Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 The reason I don't like check/call/check/call is because it gets us a showdown with QJ. I really believe bet/fold is more profitable over the long term.1st, there was no check/call c/c advocated. Mikey basically said that you should be willing to call a bet on the flop and then fold if he's betting again. This is the proper way to go about the hand I feel, unless your villain is an aggro bluffer guy.Check/raising the flop is bad since it turns our hand into a bluff, and we likely have the best hand.RRing preflop is marginal. It's not right or wrong, but in this situation, I'm probably flat calling preflop, mostly since my hand doesn't play well OOP on a lot of boards. Link to post Share on other sites
mtdesmoines 3 Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 1st, there was no check/call c/c advocated. If we use check/call here.. Link to post Share on other sites
Acid_Knight 2 Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 1st, there was no check/call c/c advocated.Shorthand sir :)You said check/call, check call in your post, which maybe was a mistake. We're only intending to c/c on the flop here. Link to post Share on other sites
rainbowbrite 0 Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 I don't 3 bet 10s out of small blind against someone I don't have a real solid read on. That said I dont think its a bad play, just not one I like. Your going to see overs on the flop, and unless you think he is going to fold, in which case having the 10s really doesnt matter, you can do it with any 2. I like the check call on the flop as well. I see most players lead out here. But if you do, for how much 15? Then what are you gonna do on the turn? make another pot size bet? then your playing oop with a marginal hand and betting with out any real info. I like how you played it Link to post Share on other sites
mtdesmoines 3 Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 OK. I officially abandon this thread. I misplay TT. Link to post Share on other sites
Bubba83 0 Posted January 4, 2008 Author Share Posted January 4, 2008 Alright, It looks like most people prefer check/call flop, check/fold turn. I'll now post what I did on the flop, and what card came on the turn.Flop: 3 6 Q $21 in potHero bets $15, BB folds, MP1 calls.Turn: 7 $51 in potHero...Now what do we do? Link to post Share on other sites
Sheiky 0 Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 Hope the action goes check/check.I think this illustrates why it's better to check the flop in these situations, once you get called it's really hard to play the turn and river acting first. Link to post Share on other sites
sactownjoey 0 Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 Hope the action goes check/check.I think this illustrates why it's better to check the flop in these situations, once you get called it's really hard to play the turn and river acting first.Why not bet? Link to post Share on other sites
Sheiky 0 Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 I hate to use the phrase because i believe people use it far too much in cases where it's often wrong, but here goes anyway, - "nothing's going to call us that we beat".Betting again turns our hand into a bluff pretty much. This could be good if we though he was floating the flop with A-x high, but as we have no reads we generaly assume that he's not doing that.. Too often when we bet here we're giving money to QJ or KQ. If he's floating the flop with A high and makes us check fold the turn, well played sir, we'll play the hand better next time. Link to post Share on other sites
Royal_Tour 0 Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 quick question here.say hero checks, abd villain bets 17 (into what was 21)do we still call with 10,10? Link to post Share on other sites
Acid_Knight 2 Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 quick question here.say hero checks, abd villain bets 17 (into what was 21)do we still call with 10,10?Nothing wrong with a c/f if you don't like how things look. Link to post Share on other sites
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