Sat Tourn Hand I Think I Played Poorly

[rainbowbrite 0]

tourn was a $560 sat 150 players top 30 move on. My general strategy in such games is to play utlra tight early, pick up small pots and avoid major battles. As the blinds go up open my range and become more agresive. If I have not had my table break try and use my tight image if I have maintained it, to steal and stay alive. Also try and pick up some reads and exploit them against a poor player if I can find one or more.we are 4 levels into the tourn we start with 8000 chips Iim down to about 7000 and blinds are 200/400. I have what I feel to be some strong reads on several players. One gentleman 3 bets pre very light ( ive seen him 3 bet aj off with a utg raiser) 2 others are limping with marginal hands and showing them down (j9 off etc). Another guy is auto c betting no matter what the flop if he is in the hand, and he has been in quite a few. Are table has seen some where around 7 guys bust out. So a couple guys have large stacks at the table. Ive seen 1 flop when not in the blinds, I let it go on a ugly flop. Ive been unreal card dead. Ive seen no pair above 6s and no decent aces. Im in no hurry to get involved I still feel its early. All that said the following is what happened as I remember. My thoughts at the time and my thoughts on the hand now.hero is utg +2 table is full. hero aj of spades, blinds 200/400.Hero raises to 1200, I am thinking I have a decent hand and that Im fine with taking the blinds as I assume my image pretty tight. Ive seen 2 players that are liming alot so I am certin I want to narrow the field if we go to the flop.It folds to the big blind, older asian gentleman is fairly new to the table. stack is very close to mine. We have played once before almost a year earlier, I doubt he remembers it. All I remember is I think he was pretty tag, so I have no real read on him and he can't have much on me, and is new to the table so doesn't know how tight I have been playing.flop comes 9c 6s 2s he checks to me. I bet 2000. He instantly moves all in. Now im not happy. I really thought I would just take it down. I did not think this out enough. I go into the tank and think, I try to piece together the hand. At the time I can not get away from 99. I know much better than to put a player on one hand, but for some reason I just can't see this betting line with anything else. I felt aa or kk would have 3 bet pre. I really did not think he would make this move with those, if he has the 99 that burns one of my outs and even if I hit the turn he has the redraw. I end up folding and am not happy about it. He tells me later that he had qq. in which case if i believe him, I had 12 outs, and with out a doubt should have called. If I had 9 I probally should have called. little off on all the numbers as this hand was a few monthes ago, but i remember doing the math on the pot and with 9 outs I had the math to call here, If he had a set I didn't. So my stacks etc may be slightly off in this post. At any rate I could not stop screaming in my head "he has a set". Id really be lying if I said that getting knocked out in a sat early on a draw even with the right math does not sit well with me. I didnt want to go to war as I said. All that said, I hate my play here accross the board.first off, I don't hate opening early with ajs however I don't think its great. Once I icolate said player and we go to the flop is where I think my play is really bad. Once he checks to me what makes me not take a free card? If i miss and he bets I can let go and be rather un hurt. If I hit and he bets i likley snap him off, especially if he had the q of spades. So that said I think I should have peeled the card and controlled the pot size if i miss let it go, if I hit i get paid. Even so im counting only flush outs. I dont feel the j is likley good and a ace on the turn is a real scarry card for me if he bets out big at all. So I really think that Im playing for the flush. obv i decided to bet. I don't think this is a terrible play, and if he has ak or aq he may fold, but thats about it. And he may still check raise me with those hands. I think if he calls or pushes I really did nothing but get myself exactly where I did not want to be. Im not really gaining any info. When he calls or pushes, I think its fair to say 8 out of 10 times im behind already and chasing. So I just really think the bet is not the right play, unless he totally missed, and is not gonna put a move on me. In which case i should take the free card because he may put a move on the turn when I make my hand. Even if he doesnt and folds when i bet. What did i lose? I could not have gotten more value exept maybe giving another free card. I also don't think many turn cards are really scaring me im the one on a draw after all.i folded to the check raise. I think i should have asked myself before i bet. "if i get check raised all in am i calling?" if the answer is no then my bet is even worse. Im comiting half of my stack and then im gonna fold if I get played back at? Thats terrible. I don't like my fold, mainly because I put him on such a narrow range of hands and pretty much one hand. Which I think is suicide. I think AA KK 99 AKo AKs AQo AQs 1010 jj qq are all capable of taking this line of betting. The only hand that crushes me is the 99 and i fold? Thats just bad. obv im really unhappy with my play here. I survived another 2 hours or so and got back above the starting stack and busted out of the top 30.any thoughts?

[sactownjoey 0]

I think the raise preflop and the fold to the check raise on the flop by themselves are fine (ignoring the amount of the bet on the flop, get to that in a minute) although seeing a free card would have been fine, too. The biggest thing I can't figure out is the massive overbet on the flop. Why 4000 into a 2600 chip pot?As played, most of your stack is already in and I call.

[rainbowbrite 0]

I think the raise preflop and the fold to the check raise on the flop by themselves are fine (ignoring the amount of the bet on the flop, get to that in a minute) although seeing a free card would have been fine, too. The biggest thing I can't figure out is the massive overbet on the flop. Why 4000 into a 2600 chip pot?As played, most of your stack is already in and I call.

Typo i bet 2000 and he shoved on me i had right around what was in the pot behind before he shoved so i was getting 2 to 1 with his shovesorry

[sactownjoey 0]

Typo i bet 2000 and he shoved on me i had right around what was in the pot behind before he shoved so i was getting 2 to 1 with his shovesorry

I would fold to the shove in a heartbeat. As played, standard. With 9 outs you can count on (can't really include pairing A or J in outs) you aren't getting near the odds needed to call. Others may advocate a gamble here but I don't see a reason to get all your money in when you are surely behind and not getting the right odds.

[throwemaway 0]

1160 about is in the pot, and it costs us 500 to call, giving us 2.32:1..We need 30 percent equity in the hand, and I would say an accurate range here is 66-QQ (although we can't fully rule out KK-AA), and 22..I think a player can defintely make this move with 77 or 88 on a ragged board..We def. have 30 percent equity with that range..Now if you tigthen it to any set, and 10s-QQ, its probably a bit closer, but I still think its a call..We are on the good side of a flip vs 10s and on the bad side vs JJ and QQ

[Sheiky 0]

Am i the only one that thinks this is a simple snap call?There's 6600 in the pot and you have to call 5k more with the nut flush draw and two overs on a 926 board, i might have mis-read something, but if not i think that's a insta-call.

[sactownjoey 0]

Am i the only one that thinks this is a simple snap call?There's 6600 in the pot and you have to call 5k more with the nut flush draw and two overs on a 926 board, i might have mis-read something, but if not i think that's a insta-call.

If we intend to see this hand to the river, then shove on the flop and make the villain rethink his c/r. How is 2:1 on a flush draw for the rest of our chips an insta-call?

[Sheiky 0]

Um, hero has to call all-in, he can't do anything more to make the BB rethink his c/r.On the flop, the pot is 1200+200+1200 = 2600Hero bets 2000, pot = 4600Villain calls 2000, pot = 6600And raises another 4800, pot = 11,400Hero has to call 4800 to win 11,400That's like 2.2 - 1 i thinkWhich means we need 28% equity to breakeven, i think, it's not more than 33% anyway. 23,760 games 0.005 secs 4,752,000 games/secBoard: 9h 6s 2sDead: equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 39.192% 39.19% 00.00% 9312 0.00 { AsJs }Hand 1: 60.808% 60.81% 00.00% 14448 0.00 { QQ-99, 66, 22 }We have more than enough equity against this range to make calling +EV.

[sactownjoey 0]

Um, hero has to call all-in, he can't do anything more to make the BB rethink his c/r.

I was saying that if we have decided we are going to see 5 cards after the flop, then shove when he checks. Take his c/r play away if we have no intention of folding to a reraise.As played, we bet to try to take the pot right there. If he calls or shoves, it's a matter of calling knowing we are very, very likely behind and quite possibly dead to a spade or runner, runner.This is a difference in cash game v. tournament poker. You can't reload if you miss. I do know tournament players that hate playing short stacked and will make the call saying you play to win and if you don't win, who cares, but I am happier getting my money in the pot in a better position.

[sactownjoey 0]

Um, hero has to call all-in, he can't do anything more to make the BB rethink his c/r.On the flop, the pot is 1200+200+1200 = 2600Hero bets 2000, pot = 4600Villain calls 2000, pot = 6600And raises another 4800, pot = 11,400Hero has to call 4800 to win 11,400That's like 2.2 - 1 i thinkWhich means we need 28% equity to breakeven, i think, it's not more than 33% anyway. 23,760 games 0.005 secs 4,752,000 games/secBoard: 9h 6s 2sDead: equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 39.192% 39.19% 00.00% 9312 0.00 { AsJs }Hand 1: 60.808% 60.81% 00.00% 14448 0.00 { QQ-99, 66, 22 }We have more than enough equity against this range to make calling +EV.

It's an additional 3800, not 4800 but that doesn't matter to the numbers very much. Your equity v. odds matter a lot less in a tournament when it means going broke.

[Sheiky 0]

That makes it even more of a snap call.

[spavlovb 0]

Am i the only one that thinks this is a simple snap call?There's 6600 in the pot and you have to call 5k more with the nut flush draw and two overs on a 926 board, i might have mis-read something, but if not i think that's a insta-call.

Yeah, snap call that. You really played the hand fine, to be honest, that is almost a gin flop for you and that stage of the tourny. I c-bet that flop almost every time and therefore call the push.You would feel just as bad if you checked behind on the flop, and let him push you off the hand with like 5's or 8's or something.Get the chips in!

[rainbowbrite 0]

Im not really asking if I should have called. I agree that I probally should have. I still do not see it as a snap call by any means. This is a live tourn which to me plays much diff than online. The buy in is fairly hi I think, and this effects the play imo. It seems to play tighter and as a sat I think I see far less shoves. I also feel that 10bb was enough that I could still play if I folded. I had an ultra tight image, I think I could have stolen a few pots and stayed live (which is what I did) I really gave him credit for the set. Which I think is a huge mistake, and with the set I didnt have the right math to call. im only 24% to win the hand. That being said if he has anything else other than the 66 I def have the math to call. Thats not enough, I dont look to get in spots where I have borderline math to make a call for my tourn life. I would call with out thinking in a cash game. However in a tourn especially a sat I can fold getting what I think is borderline math to call. I feel im a much better player than the table and that I still have the time, and even with the "right math" Im most likley to lose the hand im basically 2 to 1 at best witht the right math.....and as bad as 3 to 1 getting no where near the math and calling way behind. All this is why I think I should have taken the free card. I like the idea of the shove on the flop. I think this actually is a fairly good move. Im making him make a decision for all his chips, and with the hand he said he has I think he has to fold. He may not and if he calls im not thrilled but im in great shape with 12 outs. The comment that I have 2 overs, I dont think matters at all, I cant assume they are good. I really want to hear someone make the case for why i should not have checked behind. I really think this is the right move in this spot.

[sactownjoey 0]

That makes it even more of a snap call.

3800 additional for BOTH players, 7000-1200-2000=3800.I've talked to very good tournament players who will come down on both sides of this debate. The ones that call in this situation, however, aren't making an equity decision, they are deciding to call based on the size of their remaining stack if they fold. This isn't a decision of making a +EV decision over time because tournaments are more like coin flips, individual actions where previous and subsequent situations have no bearing. In this situation, you have about a 35% chance of hitting the flush. If you don't you are out. If it happens again the next night, your odds of staying in the tournament are exactly the same as they were the previous night.

[Sheiky 0]

In hear your point, it's one my mathmatial brain doesn't think about enough i guess.OP, how many players where left in the tourney when this hand happened?There've been many times in a sattelite where i've folded leaving myself in a tough spot because i felt i had more of a chance of getting a ticket if i folded and fought with a shortstack than if i took a flip. Those situations where quite close to the tickets though, before half the field or more has been eliminated i think it's best just to play it as a tournament.

[simo_8ball 0]

Snapcall. If I get chance when I'm done playing I'll read and laugh at any arguments otherwise.

[rainbowbrite 0]

again if he has the set i dont have the math to callim 25% to hit the flush and him not make a boatim really more asking about the bet on the flopI agree with your friend, however I dont play $560 buy in tourn's every night, so perhaps that some how effected my decision at the time. Though I really doubt it did. Its deff not a snap call though. We had around 90-100 players left, its not like if I won the hand I could coast in. I guess for you guys saying its a snap call, you like the flop bet then? or you prefer a shove? Do we gain any info if villan just calls? what if he calls and shoves the turn on a blank card? you certinley can't like a call in that situation? I really just can't get away from the idea that I should have checked and taken the free card. If i miss re evaluate, If I hit the ace im still not happy but I think we can keep the pot small as it will scare him, and If I hit the flush he may shove anyway. all this said, I already said this but I def follow the line I did play in a cash game and call on the flop. Maybe thats my issue, that im primarily a cash player

[sactownjoey 0]

again if he has the set i dont have the math to callim 25% to hit the flush and him not make a boatim really more asking about the bet on the flopI agree with your friend, however I dont play $560 buy in tourn's every night, so perhaps that some how effected my decision at the time. Though I really doubt it did. Its deff not a snap call though. We had around 90-100 players left, its not like if I won the hand I could coast in. I guess for you guys saying its a snap call, you like the flop bet then? or you prefer a shove? Do we gain any info if villan just calls? what if he calls and shoves the turn on a blank card? you certinley can't like a call in that situation? I really just can't get away from the idea that I should have checked and taken the free card. If i miss re evaluate, If I hit the ace im still not happy but I think we can keep the pot small as it will scare him, and If I hit the flush he may shove anyway. all this said, I already said this but I def follow the line I did play in a cash game and call on the flop. Maybe thats my issue, that im primarily a cash player

I don't think you can say your bet, a shove or check are wrong. But like you said, you have to think about what you do if he check-raises. If you know you can fold, c-bet and take a stab at it. If not, check or shove.

[throwemaway 0]

OP: Checking behind sucks. You didn't know he was going to check raise when it was your decision to act. Don't let results trick you. Shoving also sucks. Betting 5800 into a pot of 2600 is just retarded. You are simply going to have to win marginal situations like this in MTT's. I don't know how far you were from the money, if your close, then its a much tougher decision..However, I think me and Sheiky layed out pretty well why this is an easy call

[Sheiky 0]

I don't think shoving sucks at all.Checking behind sucks i agree.However, if you bet any reasonable amount on the flop, you've commited yourself to the hand because folding if raised or not pushing the turn is a bad play(unless it gets checked down which it realisticaly never will be). Pushing on the flop gives you the most fold equity, which is of course what we want in this spot.

[sactownjoey 0]

OP: Checking behind sucks. You didn't know he was going to check raise when it was your decision to act. Don't let results trick you. Shoving also sucks. Betting 5800 into a pot of 2600 is just retarded. You are simply going to have to win marginal situations like this in MTT's. I don't know how far you were from the money, if your close, then its a much tougher decision..However, I think me and Sheiky layed out pretty well why this is an easy call

I don't agree with this. He doesn't have to know he is going to be c/r but he has to decide before he bets what he will do in that situation and act accordingly. If he knows he is only trying to pick up the pot with this bet and will fold to a shove, take the free card and save your chips.In tournament play, betting 5800 into 2600 is definitely not retarded if you want to see all five cards and your push makes your opponent make a decision for all their chips.