Jump to content

Recommended Posts

the utg is probably the strongest hand ...
I'm with Splash here. If the UTG has been limping weak previously, anybody coming in after him is going to raise a strong hand to steal the blinds plus his limp.To my mind that means the only hands of concern is the BB and the UTG.Canada, I couldnt disagree with you more ( no Offense). If people know that he is coming in weak and they have a big hand...AA, KK, then why is it so absurd to think they are slowplaying. How valuable is it to raise a player that you are not at all worried about, simply to gain his 400 and risk knocking all of the other players behind you out of the pot where they have the potential to raise with a marginal hand. This is really what a monster hand would be looking for.Why then would you all of a sudden be worried about UTG when DN stated that he limps weak and folds to a raise. that is in there for a reason. Just because the BB is yet to act doesnt mean you should be most worried about his hand.In this scenario the two hands to be worried about the most are...1. seat 32. your handyou assume UTG is weak and button is playing a marginal hand with position. If the button had a real hand he would prob raise there because at that point there is enough money in the pot that he would be happy with simply winning what is already in the middle.You are only invested 200 hundred dollars see a cheap flop and if you miss you can easily let this one go.
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 121
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

4. You are really never more than 4 to 1 preflop dog so folding while getting 11 to 1 is just wrong.
That's heads-up. If nobody is worse than 4-1 with 5 in the pot, then nobody is better than 4-1 either since it's a zero-sum game. If nobody is worse than 4-1 with 6 in the pot, then math is just plain broken. I dont know how A8o fairs against 4 random hands or 4 limping hands...I guess it should be 3 limping hands and 1 random hand. It might be better than 11-1, but you'd have to be up against crap hands to be 4-1 or better against this many callers with a weak unsuited ace.
Link to post
Share on other sites
the utg is probably the strongest hand of the
My question for you is Why? Daniel specifically said the following...
The player under the gun limps in for 400. You've seen him limp all of the time with less than premium hands and he's folded to a raise.
So... Why do you think UTG is the "Man to be worried about"? Lol... he's the least of my concerns!
lol?I counter that with a double lol
Link to post
Share on other sites

Two things I want to say.If you raise to half your stack and someone moves in on you, you more or less have to call with any two cards with 3:1 pot odds. Second, I've said that this is a good spot to steal with any two cards. Assume you are any of the other players in the hand (including the BB). With what hands would you be willing to call an all-in from the SB, given the conditions DN outlined? Of those hands, how many of them would you have played the same way as the problem describes.

Link to post
Share on other sites
I wonder when we will get the answer...the suspense is killing me. :club:
Exactly, I cant wait to see DN's thoughts on this, I think it is a really interesting scenario.Personally, I would call to see a cheap flop with the great pot odds available but some of the arguements for the other options have been put really well. I don't see how you can fold at all but hey that is just my opinion.
Link to post
Share on other sites
the utg is probably the strongest hand ...
I'm with Splash here. If the UTG has been limping weak previously, anybody coming in after him is going to raise a strong hand to steal the blinds plus his limp.To my mind that means the only hands of concern is the BB and the UTG.
Canada, I couldnt disagree with you more ( no Offense). If people know that he is coming in weak and they have a big hand...AA, KK, then why is it so absurd to think they are slowplaying.
No offense taken.To answer your question: Gap Theory and IsolationActually its the application of the Gap Theory with a Gap that has been closed to make things confusing... If this player has been noted to limp/fold preflop before it will often set off a chain of limpers coming in with mediocre or drawing hands as they no longer respect his limping.The last thing a player with a big hand wants is to take on a group. AA, KK etc do better heads up so it would be a mistake for any player with this type of holding to encourage more limpers by limping himself. They should be raising in the hope of getting heads-up with the UTG or another player.Similarly a strong hand like AJ, A10, 99 etc should also raise to drive out opposition, collect the blinds and UTG limp.In short, any player after the UTG with a hand stronger than A8 has made a mistake if they haven't raised.To be honest we should probably be pushing with any 2 here, the fact that we have A8 gives us a better than average chance if we do get called, but we really don't want that to happen...
Link to post
Share on other sites

I thought this situation was a call for sure upon initial read(that is what I voted for). Now I am not so sure. :shock: After the discussion, I can't decide 50/50 between a simple complete or All-in push. We need those blinds/antes, but we just got out of the blinds for another 7 hands, and any callers means certain underdog. Oh, the drama.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Its obvious to go all in, don't see what all the fuss is about. He gave infomation that says the player calls with weak hands. Therefore, weaker hands are going to call him...it wouldnt matter if it was seat 3 or seat 9... the calls will just get weaker the higher the seat positioning is. If they were good players they would have raised to knock the weak opponents out, there's probably no chance for slowplaying. They are just going in on pot odds. Easy, fair enough, go all in. Why just raise when you are committed anyway and you want the 5 cards if they call your raise. Only hands to be worried about are Ace higher...however considering the weakness of the limping, I should hope that the players would raise to knock out the other limpers and steal blinds. Only hands you can be worried about are ATs or A9s. That's a risk u have to take once in a while to earn chips. BB is yet to act but thats also a risk u gotta take. Chances are in blind he has a crap hand. 99,tt,jj...etc. would not have limped seeing a weak play as this from all the players. Why wait around another round, you are short stacked. The opportunity to steal this comes around once in a while. Coin-flip/chance to steal blinds + short-stack = all in.See Harrington on Hold em...Its all in.Oh and I forgot to mention your position along with short-stack thats why you dont call.

Link to post
Share on other sites
To answer your question:  Gap Theory and IsolationActually its the application of the Gap Theory with a Gap that has been closed to make things confusing...  If this player has been noted to limp/fold preflop before it will often set off a chain of limpers coming in with mediocre or drawing hands as they no longer respect his limping.The last thing a player with a big hand wants is to take on a group.  AA, KK etc do better heads up so it would be a mistake for any player with this type of holding to encourage more limpers by limping himself.  They should be raising in the hope of getting heads-up with the UTG or another player.Similarly a strong hand like AJ, A10, 99 etc  should also raise to drive out opposition, collect the blinds and UTG limp.In short, any player after the UTG with a hand stronger than A8 has made a mistake if they haven't raised.To be honest we should probably be pushing with any 2 here, the fact that we have A8 gives us a better than average chance if we do get called, but we really don't want that to happen...
I agree with your application of the gap theory, however let me ask you this;If you were 2nd limper with ace ace, you know UTG is probably going to fold to your bet, maybe you want to limp here to get more money rather than just 2 1/2 BBs if you make a scary raise. Not saying this is the 'right' play, but you know many people play this way. Their entire arsenal of tricks is the check raise slow play. Tournaments are big with poor players, we've all said it; "No way he should have made that call!" while he's raking your chips.If you were 2nd limper with Ace ten offsuit and you saw DN on the SB make a big raise at this pot, would you only think gap theory, or would you think here's DN, short stacked and aggresive, plays lots of marginal hands, needs to make a move, might be willing to gamble a bit...I think I'll call. Gap theory says fold ace ten os, but this would not be an automatic fold if you've got 20,000 chips and for 25% you can get DN out.Playing gap theory only is too rigid, too easy to spot. DN noticed this in UTG who calls then folds to a raise....gap theoryeque.If everybody played 'correctly' then Phil Helmuth would win everything!
Link to post
Share on other sites
To answer your question:  Gap Theory and IsolationTo be honest we should probably be pushing with any 2 here, the fact that we have A8 gives us a better than average chance if we do get called, but we really don't want that to happen...
I agree with your application of the gap theory, however let me ask you this;If you were 2nd limper with ace ace, you know UTG is probably going to fold to your bet, maybe you want to limp here to get more money rather than just 2 1/2 BBs if you make a scary raise. Not saying this is the 'right' play, but you know many people play this way. Their entire arsenal of tricks is the check raise slow play. Tournaments are big with poor players, we've all said it; "No way he should have made that call!" while he's raking your chips.!
Yes, lets all slow play aces. We'll make millions. Especially in a multiway pot I can quadruple up cause aces can beat 2 pair.Im not saying a slowplay isn't an issue at all cause anything is possible, it's poker. Let's be honest, If you had aces in that position and saw some1 limp who plays crap hands and the pot will be multiway, who isn't going to raise. Flop comes KTJ 2 suits, there goes your AA. You catch me going in with A8 and you have AA, I give you props. You are God. You knew I would go all in and you had 3 outs to get your AA from, you should go pro.
Link to post
Share on other sites
Its obvious to go all in, don't see what all the fuss is about.  He gave infomation that says the player calls with weak hands.  Therefore, weaker hands are going to call him...it wouldnt matter if it was seat 3 or seat 9... the calls will just get weaker the higher the seat positioning is.  If they were good players they would have raised to knock the weak opponents out, there's probably no chance for slowplaying. They are just going in on pot odds. Easy, fair enough, go all in.  Why just raise when you are committed anyway and you want the 5 cards if they call your raise. Only hands to be worried about are Ace higher...however considering the weakness of the limping, I should hope that the players would raise to knock out the other limpers and steal blinds.  Only hands you can be worried about are ATs or A9s.  That's a risk u have to take once in a while to earn chips.  BB is yet to act but thats also a risk u gotta take.  Chances are in blind he has a crap hand. 99,tt,jj...etc. would not have limped seeing a weak play as this from all the players. Why wait around another round, you are short stacked.  The opportunity to steal this comes around once in a while.  Coin-flip/chance to steal blinds + short-stack = all in.See Harrington on Hold em...Its all in.Oh and I forgot to mention your position along with short-stack thats why you dont call.
Alright you convinced me with the EP point. By pushing you take EP out of equation. I PUSH! oh yeah, and hope I don't get called.
Link to post
Share on other sites

I like raising to 2000 here. Knowing that the player who acted first has been limping with mediocre hands, we can assume he isn't sandbagging with a monster. Ditto with the other 2 limpers. If they had strong hands, they would look to isolate with a decent sized raise, no? By raising to 2000, you leave yourself with enough chips to make one final stand if someone comes over the top of you here. The risk reward ratio here is very much in your favor. If you get up to 6000+ in chips here, you're in great shape.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Also, with the raise to 2000, you make it look like you're committed to the pot, even though that's not necessarily the case. Most players will think they're playing this pot for the whole 4000+ you have in front of you and will hesitate to call or raise with less than premium hands, which it seems unlikely for anyone to be holding.

Link to post
Share on other sites
To answer your question:  Gap Theory and IsolationTo be honest we should probably be pushing with any 2 here, the fact that we have A8 gives us a better than average chance if we do get called, but we really don't want that to happen...
I agree with your application of the gap theory, however let me ask you this;If you were 2nd limper with ace ace, you know UTG is probably going to fold to your bet, maybe you want to limp here to get more money rather than just 2 1/2 BBs if you make a scary raise. Not saying this is the 'right' play, but you know many people play this way. Their entire arsenal of tricks is the check raise slow play. Tournaments are big with poor players, we've all said it; "No way he should have made that call!" while he's raking your chips.!
Yes, lets all slow play aces. We'll make millions. Especially in a multiway pot I can quadruple up cause aces can beat 2 pair.Im not saying a slowplay isn't an issue at all cause anything is possible, it's poker. Let's be honest, If you had aces in that position and saw some1 limp who plays crap hands and the pot will be multiway, who isn't going to raise. Flop comes KTJ 2 suits, there goes your AA. You catch me going in with A8 and you have AA, I give you props. You are God. You knew I would go all in and you had 3 outs to get your AA from, you should go pro.
GOOSFRABA dude.
Link to post
Share on other sites

I voted fold, but I'm going to have to say a raise to all-in would be my new move. With being short stacked and everyone in the pot limping in, there is a good chance that it'll at worst be heads-up. You will be a big underdog to a-a and a-k through a-9 but not too bad against much else. Clearly you are in desperation mode and who wants to just place. 8)

Link to post
Share on other sites

This is my first time to this section, wow what a learning experience! My knee jerk reaction was fold, but after studying and reading all the posts, my feeling is push all in. Hands that figure to beat you and that would call an all in would have raised, evidence suggests only marginal hands are in. It would also be nice to know everyone's stack size, but you are at 10X BB and entering the danger zone anyway. You might as well push, because soon your all in will not carry the weight it currently does. If someone calls, you are getting about 60 -40 from the pot and you don't figure to be a bigger dog than that.

Link to post
Share on other sites
To answer your question:  Gap Theory and IsolationActually its the application of the Gap Theory with a Gap that has been closed to make things confusing...  If this player has been noted to limp/fold preflop before it will often set off a chain of limpers coming in with mediocre or drawing hands as they no longer respect his limping.The last thing a player with a big hand wants is to take on a group.  AA, KK etc do better heads up so it would be a mistake for any player with this type of holding to encourage more limpers by limping himself.  They should be raising in the hope of getting heads-up with the UTG or another player.Similarly a strong hand like AJ, A10, 99 etc  should also raise to drive out opposition, collect the blinds and UTG limp.In short, any player after the UTG with a hand stronger than A8 has made a mistake if they haven't raised.To be honest we should probably be pushing with any 2 here, the fact that we have A8 gives us a better than average chance if we do get called, but we really don't want that to happen...
I agree with your application of the gap theory, however let me ask you this;If you were 2nd limper with ace ace, you know UTG is probably going to fold to your bet, maybe you want to limp here to get more money rather than just 2 1/2 BBs if you make a scary raise. Not saying this is the 'right' play, but you know many people play this way. Their entire arsenal of tricks is the check raise slow play. Tournaments are big with poor players, we've all said it; "No way he should have made that call!" while he's raking your chips.If you were 2nd limper with Ace ten offsuit and you saw DN on the SB make a big raise at this pot, would you only think gap theory, or would you think here's DN, short stacked and aggresive, plays lots of marginal hands, needs to make a move, might be willing to gamble a bit...I think I'll call. Gap theory says fold ace ten os, but this would not be an automatic fold if you've got 20,000 chips and for 25% you can get DN out.Playing gap theory only is too rigid, too easy to spot. DN noticed this in UTG who calls then folds to a raise....gap theoryeque.If everybody played 'correctly' then Phil Helmuth would win everything!
Agree with your point that players are human and will make mistakes and therefore there is some risk in the play, however for me the deciding factor is that we are entering short stack territory. We need to start taking some chances, and all things being equal we have some very good clues as to everybodies holdings (bar the BB) which gives us the opportunity to grab over 2k in chips. Pass this up and we need to start relying on luck.
Link to post
Share on other sites

As I reconsider my decision to call I feel maybe I was wrong and an all in is the correct play. But not for the reasons stated.If DN posted this question, from one of his actual plays, then I doubt a call would have been memorable enough for him, therefore he must have went all in, for many of the reasons you all have stated.I'm more conservative, which I'm sure holds me back, but until I have more experience I will continue to play tight and enjoy the fewer pots I win. Luckily this is for fun and not eating money as it were.I have enjoyed the insight you all have given me and maybe I'll loosen up enought o play at some of your levels.

Link to post
Share on other sites
To answer your question:  Gap Theory and IsolationTo be honest we should probably be pushing with any 2 here, the fact that we have A8 gives us a better than average chance if we do get called, but we really don't want that to happen...
I agree with your application of the gap theory, however let me ask you this;If you were 2nd limper with ace ace, you know UTG is probably going to fold to your bet, maybe you want to limp here to get more money rather than just 2 1/2 BBs if you make a scary raise. Not saying this is the 'right' play, but you know many people play this way. Their entire arsenal of tricks is the check raise slow play. Tournaments are big with poor players, we've all said it; "No way he should have made that call!" while he's raking your chips.!
Yes, lets all slow play aces. We'll make millions. Especially in a multiway pot I can quadruple up cause aces can beat 2 pair.Im not saying a slowplay isn't an issue at all cause anything is possible, it's poker. Let's be honest, If you had aces in that position and saw some1 limp who plays crap hands and the pot will be multiway, who isn't going to raise. Flop comes KTJ 2 suits, there goes your AA. You catch me going in with A8 and you have AA, I give you props. You are God. You knew I would go all in and you had 3 outs to get your AA from, you should go pro.
dakielbasa, You might want to check out DN's blog in his jounel about Coach Carter where he slow plays kings when UTG early in a tournament. I guess some people do slow play big hands on occasion, unlike you. And unless I'm mistaken DN HAS made millions.Only difference is when he slow played he was UTG, not second limper etc. And lo and behold when someone took the bait, then he re raised him. Sounds like normal tournament stratagy to me.
Link to post
Share on other sites

Announcements


×
×
  • Create New...