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i have not responded or put up many posts but, I love to browse and read all the posts on this site. However, I agree you have three choices.....call, raise, or all-in. I do not like the first two options at all........if you just call you are now first to act after the flop w/ no real info on the strength of your opponents...so even if u do hit an Ace.....is it good? Everyone seems to like the raise to 2k. I do not like it very much either.....I may dislike it more than the call. Here are the reasons.... people may be more willing to gamble agaisnt you since they know now it would cost them only a lil over 2k more the rest of the way during the hand, if u push it. So they could call with a variety of hands ranging for Ax, suited connectors, small pairs,or Kxs. Now that you just put in half your stack and someone calls you have to play in first position w/ people behind you with an A8. I say push it in.....you should get the suited connectors to fold....and maybe some small pocket pairs(3s -6s). More importantly can someone call 4k more with an A9 or A10? I think with the utg limpin already the other two wouldve raised with AJ or better....or even maybe a KQ. I don't see why they would limp in with these hands. I think its time u make a stand and try to double up......you are down to only 10x bb. you are shortstack......you got to try and get chips somehow, why not in a pot with 3 limpers and possibly dead money in it already?another thing I think the reason DN informed us about the UTG is that we should assume that the other players at the table realize the he is loose/limper and likes to take flops.....even with this info they still limp?? what does that say about their hands? if they know he would fold to a raise, y not put one in? i think he told us this to show us that they don't have very strong hands either......or i could be way off...thx for readin this

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Calling is a poor play here. Your in shitty position with a shitty ace which you wont know is good if it hits. If it doesnt hit you probably cost yourself another $200 anyway. If you are not worried about the early limper playing second hand low, you should not be too worried about putting in a raise here, the other two limpers are liekly in the pot for the odds. The choice is now between raising to $200 (half your stack) or the whole nut. Rasing half your stack makes you somewhat pot committed as well as gives any opponent 2 to 1 on his call. It is unlikely that the later limpers are storng enough to call an all-in given that they didnt raise the intital bet. Your a short stack, time to get agressive.

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At 4,200 left, you are nearly short stacked. It's raise or fold, as far as I can see. I'm surprised by the amount of people who voted to call... at this point, if it's good enough to call, then it's good enough to raise.

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Been lurking for a very long time, reading the forum and the Blogs and love these quizzes so much that they prompted me to register to answer this one.- I do bet $2000. We know the limper UTG is weak and can be pushed of the hand, and if we think the other two players have a hint of this as well then we can't completely ignore the possibility that they're limping with Ax to see what the flop is knowing that UTG can be pushed off. We know that we're covered, but we don't know the other stacks involved. If Seat 3 and the Button are comparable then after UTG releases his hand the person in Seat 3 isn't faced with the calling your bet (and the remaining 2K in your stack) he's faced with possibly calling 6+ K behind him. So he either calls with a real hand, or releases a bad one.The Button can get in Heads-Up, but you'd have to like your chances better against 1 hand than against four (*if* the big blind only checks if you call). You have a good chance of getting into the flop against a reduced field, or just winning the pot outright and adding 50% to your stack.- I don't go All-in.Overbetting the pot is going to shrink the value of an already weak hand, and while it still puts the decision on the other players it removes any option you have of making an after flop play, or release. The $2000 is the right-size bet for the pot while still giving you options.- I don't Fold.There's a lot of money in play, about 50% of your current stack size, and it's just waiting for you to make a play at it. - I don't Call.In your best case scenario, calling gets you to the flop against 4 other hands, which drastically narrows the flops that can help you. In your worst case scenario, faced with 4 limpers one that s/he knows is weak and one that's short stacked, the big blind bets the pot, or jams it. Congrats you've given away 5% of your stack because you can't make that call. I think calling is your worst option here because essentially you're throwing out money that you're very unlikely to be able to recoup, and even if you do hit your miracle flop, you're unlikely to make any $$ on it.

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I'm All-In.Right now, you figure to be a slight favorite against 3 other non-premium hands.If you just Call, the Pot goes to 2650, and you've left the door open for the BB to steal.If you complete and then Raise 2000, the Pot becomes 4650 and you only have 2000 left. That means any subsequent bet you make offers the other players a minimum of better than 3.3:1 Pot Odds.Nobody, so far, has indicated any strength. If you're going to play this hand at all, play to take it down right now.Dunce

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I'm All-In.Right now, you figure to be a slight favorite against 3 other non-premium hands.
Except there's a 4th hand involved. The BB is sitting there, has you covered and hasn't had to act yet so you have no idea what he has. I don't think you want an all-in call there, and throwing a raise of 2000 out to make the pot 4650 is effectively a declaration of being pot commited (since anyone going over the top would be giving you 4:1 on your remaining 2K) without having to actually go all-in. But it still offers you an option to get away from the hand if the BB is a tight player and goes all in, or if the flop hits sub-optimally. While the raise brings you right to the edge of all-in, it still leaves you options, where the all-in doesn't.
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There are certainly a lot of things to consider. First, you're getting pot odds of 9:1 to make a call here. Granted, the BB is still to act - so that needs to figure in to your calculation a little bit. But, those odds are just too good to pass up with A8o. A call is definitely in order at the very least. Okay, but do you really want to play A8o v. 4 opponents? Probably not. An Ace hits and you could be forced to make some tough decisions. So, you'd like to thin down the field a bit (or win the pot right there) and a good $2000 raise just might do that. I think you're read on the opponents is a big key before considering a raise. Will anyone limp/re-raise? What types of hands are they just limping with? Someone probably has a low-mid pair. There might be a few big cards too. Essentially, how are they likely to react to a raise right now? Daniel says the UTG is likely to fold. But there are still 3 others (and I have no read on the BB yet) to act. I don't think a raise is going to take the pot at this moment. Okay, a bigger context is my stack versus the blinds. The call is close to 10% of my stack. A $2000 raise will commit almost one-half of my stack on A8 out of position to pick up $1800. I just think that a raise is a little too aggressive at this point. You're committing to a hand that will be tough to play out of position. I think with fewer opponents a raise here is a good play, but right now, it just seems risky. Just call for now and re-evaluate on the flop.

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Folding makes me want to cry, and "it's A8offsuit" or "you need to hit the flop hard to continue" and anything like that is just awful reasoning, unless it's qualified with the statement "I am not skilled enough to make any sort of bet, raise, or call after the flop unless I hit a miracle with this hand." At that point, what hands DO you play, even when you can see a 2200 chip flop for 200 more chips?Without a shocking read on the players, a push almost has to be profitable. Even with the pessimistic conditions of getting 1 caller 60% of the time, and only winning 30% the times you get called, you're making chips. You have a read on UTG limping with weak hands and folding to raises. One other limper trailed in behind him, and somebody limped on the button, and people are convinced that this means that one of them has a "big hand?" I think the real question in my mind is, does completing make more money than pushing? I don't think so, so I'm probably all in. This is a beautiful situation for a push, where the pot is large enough to make a big difference, but your stack is still large enough to carry a good amount of fold equity behind its push.Also guys, why are you afraid of the big blind? Sure he can wake up with a big hand sometimes, but the fact that he hasn't acted yet doesn't intrinsically mean you should be frightened. Do you know what it means? That he has, for your purposes, two random cards. Sometimes they're aces or kings, but there's a whole lot of trash that qualifies as "random." Even though they haven't shown much strength, any one of the limpers should be more "frightening" to you than two random cards.

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heres how i see it. the utg limper is probably not that strong judging by the read we have on him. the early position limper is probably playing a marginal hand. it is less likely that the epl is holding a premium hand because of the utg limper. the epl would most likely raise with any premium hand. it is even less likely that the button has a premium hand as he would definately raise with 2 limpers in front of him. i would put him on a large range of marginal hands. now its is out turn to act. to call is not a bad play. u can see a flop and hope to hit. but u are leaving 2250 in chips just sitting out there waiting to be claimed. folding is not really an option as there is 2250 in the pot and its only 200 to call. ur getting more than 11-1 on ur call. lets look at the 2 raising options now. u can raise all in or make it 2000 to go. to raise all in is a pretty intimidating play and will get most hands to fold and u pick up a decent pot. even if u do get called, ull still be at least a 30% favorite to all hands except AA. but u can really find a better spot to get all ur money in with. do u really want to put ur tournament on the line with A8. suppose this is the one hand that the utg limper has a monster. u gave urself no chance to see how strong he really is.ok. now comes the option that i think is the best play. when u raise to 2000, ur putting a lot of pressure on the people that are still in the pot. the big blind is looking at a raise and 3 people still to act. he will not play unless he has a monster hand. the same goes for the utg limper and the early position limper. the button might consider a call, but he probably doesnt have a hand worth a call. he also knows that for u to raise into 3 limpers that u probably have a very good holding. the reason why i dont like the all in is because if any of ur reads are wrong, then u are stuck with ur decision and u have to let the cards decide. if u raise to 2000 and are played back at by any of the players, but especially the big blind and the utg limper, then u can give them respect for a monster hand and fold leaving urself with 2200 in chips. that gives u 2 more rounds to find a better spot to get all of ur money in.

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the utg is probably the strongest hand of the
My question for you is Why? Daniel specifically said the following...
The player under the gun limps in for 400. You've seen him limp all of the time with less than premium hands and he's folded to a raise.
So... Why do you think UTG is the "Man to be worried about"? Lol... he's the least of my concerns!
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Never raise when a re-raise will make you throw up - Doyle
I don't know if you just made this quote up or merely have taken it completely out of context. But following this quote always and literally would mean you could NEVER bluff, and I assure you Doyle knows how to bluff. Following this quote in a tournament would mean you could never steal blinds, and if you can't steal blinds then you just arent a good tournament player.IMO this is a clear raise or fold situation, calling is by far the worst option.
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I've read the thread now and would like to argue against some things...The all-in move. The raise to $2000 accomplishes most of the pushing you need while leaving you options. True it's only 2:1 pot odds but you are essentially saying you're in for your whole stack. I can easily see someone with a better hand like AK calling your all in at this point.
I dont like raising it 2k that puts 4450 in the pot and only 2k to call giving anyone with a decent hand or suited connectors and chips to play with pot odds to call. I also dont like raising 2k and saying your leaving yourself "options", if you would even consider folding if someone pushes back at you then you shouldnt be raising half your chips as a short stack. In my opinion the play is to move allin or smooth call and hope to hit a big flop. That said I would shove them allin and not think twice about it. If you noticed that UTG limps and will fold to a raise then surely others who are in the pot already have noticed and would try picking up the pot right there. I cant imagine the 3rd limper on the button would slow play a PP or big Ace with that many limpers in front of him. I would push allin and be pretty confident that I had the best hand or was a slight dog to a small pp.
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Jayson you don't have "Lol" him for giving his opinion. Give the guy credit for still being leary of a UTG limper, it's still right to give it second thought.
Allright perhaps I was a little harsh by laughing? :club: Sorry Y'all!But the reason for this still stands, in this situation I'm not worried at all about a pre-flop UTG Limper. Daniel stated that this guy has done this very often with weak hands so with that said, we need to take it into account. This is the only player we have a read on, so lets use it.
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Never raise when a re-raise will make you throw up - Doyle
I don't know if you just made this quote up or merely have taken it completely out of context. But following this quote always and literally would mean you could NEVER bluff, and I assure you Doyle knows how to bluff. Following this quote in a tournament would mean you could never steal blinds, and if you can't steal blinds then you just arent a good tournament player.
You misunderstand the full meaning of the quote. When you raise with trash, a reraise won't make you throw up because you're presented with an easy decision: fold. If you raise with a decent hand and get reraised, you throw up because you're faced with a tough decision. In those cases you would have been better off limping and seeing a cheap flop.
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Never raise when a re-raise will make you throw up - Doyle
I don't know if you just made this quote up or merely have taken it completely out of context. But following this quote always and literally would mean you could NEVER bluff, and I assure you Doyle knows how to bluff. Following this quote in a tournament would mean you could never steal blinds, and if you can't steal blinds then you just arent a good tournament player.
You misunderstand the full meaning of the quote. When you raise with trash, a reraise won't make you throw up because you're presented with an easy decision: fold. If you raise with a decent hand and get reraised, you throw up because you're faced with a tough decision. In those cases you would have been better off limping and seeing a cheap flop.
What he said.If I'm Daniel, I'm not going to put out half my stack to be faced with a possible re raise by the BB who I have no information on yet. And if I get re-raised by BB, and any of the others call, then how good is the ace trash? Auto fold, but you are now super short. The next hand is your button, and you have plenty of chances to steal blinds when there is only blinds in the pot. In my albeit limited Tournament experience, I see limpers with strong hands wanting more limpers more than I see it in cash games.And a strong call takes away that play from the 3rd limper who wants to be raised so he can get paid off for his slow play of ace 9, which dominates your hand.Put another way, 1st limper is Johnny Chan, 2nd limper is Chip Reese, and the BB is Chris Moneymaker...........Now how strong is your desire to put in half your stack?
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the utg is probably the strongest hand ...
I'm with Splash here. If the UTG has been limping weak previously, anybody coming in after him is going to raise a strong hand to steal the blinds plus his limp.To my mind that means the only hands of concern is the BB and the UTG.The BB is a random hand and as we are nearing short stack territory we need to start taking some risks and should be willing to ignore him.If the UTG is open limping a lot, it tends to indicate a weaker player so it is unlikely that they would be holding a monster to limp reraise with, so it is likely they have a mediocre holding.All of the above suggests you are facing non-premium hands and 1 random hand. Stealing this pot is going to increase your stack by about 50% - an opportunity too good to pass.With A8o out of position you really don't want to see a flop. It is a real hit or miss hand and even when you do hit with an Ace you never no where you stand. So I think raising 2000 is a mistake, as it gives any caller rough pot odds of about 2-1 making it correct for a large stack to call against a number of your likely holdings. When you see the flop you are in no-mans land if you miss and would be all but crippled if you chose to fold. All this adds up to an All-in.
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There is so much information missing from this scenario that needs to be included to make a decision. I'm assuming this is a tournament, but it doesnt state how many players are left in the tournament, how many chips the players who limped are holding. How much the BB has. What is the moneyline, how far are you from it. What is your chipstack relative to the average. What is the payout difference from 1st place to just making the money. What is your table image. What types of players are still in the pot. Are they aggressive, are they passive, are they calling stations, do they like to gamble. To just look at A8 and say call fold or raise, or allin, is kinda elementary. Valid points can be made for all of the above choices given more information. Also, there isn't just one answer. In many situations any of the choices would be the "correct" play. In the end it will all come down to the fact that you have to make one and stand behind it.B

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Put another way, 1st limper is Johnny Chan, 2nd limper is Chip Reese, and the BB is Chris Moneymaker...........Now how strong is your desire to put in half your stack?
I voted for move all in. Calling with a weak ace is rarely a good idea. If you flop an ace then what? Let's say you bet out when you flop an ace, then get reraised... what do you do then? I think a fold is better than a call here, and moving all in to steal the blinds is the best option.
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Let's assume that the second limper and the button have the same read of UTG. If either has a real hand, they would (and should) raise. That they called signifies probable weak hands. Odds are you are most concerned about the UTG player limping with a premium hand, but since he folds to a.raise sometimes, it is reasonable to assume that he would fold a medium pair here.Consider the situation. I argue that this is a spot where you should consider going all-in regardless of the two cards you actually hold. You're short-stacked and it is a good spot to pick up chips. Limping in is a bad option for exactly this reason: the big blind may move in behind you. I will often move in with a hand like 98 suited in this spot. I feel that an analogous situation is the 2004 WSOP main event hand where Dan Harrington shoved all-in with nothing after a preflop raise and a call by Greg Raymer and Josh Arieh. You have just enough money that other players will think you might not be desparate and call you with hands like 77 or AJ.

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Put another way, 1st limper is Johnny Chan, 2nd limper is Chip Reese, and the BB is Chris Moneymaker...........Now how strong is your desire to put in half your stack?
I voted for move all in. Calling with a weak ace is rarely a good idea. If you flop an ace then what? Let's say you bet out when you flop an ace, then get reraised... what do you do then? I think a fold is better than a call here, and moving all in to steal the blinds is the best option.
I'm not looking for an ace, I'm looking for 2 eights to fall, or 3 cards that match my ace suit. ace falls I'm figuring 3rd best hand, and I check fold. ace eight falls I'm all in. 2 eights fall and I check raise all in. No shame in looking for a great flop. That's why we all play those low suited 'connectors' that DN loves. Tournament play here, big win with good flop, smallest loss possible with missed flop.If you raised here the 2,000 or went all in, and flop comes ace king queen hearts are you going to stand up, walk out before the turn and say over ands over, why didn't I try for a cheap flop.Miracle flop comes and you're going to have 4 fish on the hook with at least a double up, possibly a triple up.If you feel you are honestly too short handed to try to see cheap flops, then fold is correct option and try to get big hand in the next 30 hands that you will get because you didn't put it all in with an at best marginal hand.I see why you feel you can push out everyone with an all in. But don't you notice in tournaments it's such a common thing for players to feel it's their job to knock off short stacks more than build chip stacks? One bone head with ace 9 who should fold all day to your raise is thinking, I can bust out DN in this scenario.If one person calls your all in, you've taken all your skill out of the picture and decided to coin flip him. If two people call, you've lost your skill and all your chips, but the buffet will have more food on it when you get there. If you call, your skill is still a factor and you can still make an all in play if you get a decent peice of it.If the BB goes all in, then he wins because he had position, something you DON'T have so don't play like you do.
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I voted for move all in. Calling with a weak ace is rarely a good idea. If you flop an ace then what? Let's say you bet out when you flop an ace, then get reraised... what do you do then? I think a fold is better than a call here, and moving all in to steal the blinds is the best option.
A fold has an expected value of 0. You are getting over 11:1 on a call. You don't think A8o has a positive expected value getting 11:1 in this situation? I don't think moving in is horrible, but I think the same player that would raise your flop bet would probably also call your all-in.
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I have to vote for the all-in move. In another post someone said that the UTG limper tends to set off a chain of limpers. I have seen this to be true as well. People will tend to play increasingly weak hands because the price is right to try and hit a flop. We might be getting trapped by the 3rd seat, or even the button (with the button being more likely but also harder to read because he's on the button). That being said, the pot is 50% of your stack and this is a great opportunity to really increase your chip count. Most likely, the all-in bet forces everyone to fold. Possibly, you are called and in deep trouble. Possibly you are called and in some sort of race. I have to go with the most likely possibility and try to get more chips to win the tournament.This response asssumes that this is the final table of a tournament. In that spot it is time to make a move and try to take first place. If this is early in a tournament or a cash game then I would call and see a flop. Most likely folding to any action unless I flop a set of 8's or 2 pair.

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My rank of choices...1. call - 11/1 pot odds on the call. only 5% of your stack. If you miss so what (Risk/Reward ratio in yur favor)2. Raise 2000 - I agree that this bet shows more strength than pushing all in, but I do not like throwing half of my chips into the pot with A 8. Is this the hand that you really want to go out on.3. All in- I actually hate this play because you are only getting called by a better hand. 4. You are really never more than 4 to 1 preflop dog so folding while getting 11 to 1 is just wrong.In this hand I am most scared of seat three. It is very possible that he has a hand like AA in my opinion. Considering that Daniel said that we have seen UTG limp then fold to a raise, why it not possible to think that seat three was slowplaying his AA with all of those behind him hoping that someone would raise and then he could go over the top. Most likely if we know that he limps weak then folds to a raise, seat three does prob too. Maybe he was looking for UTG to hit the flop and trap him.I know AA is not a hand in which you want to see a ton of multiway action, but he acted early and did not anticipate that many limping behind him. UTG is prob weak, as prev mentioned, and the button is calling prob with great odds and position.I risk only 200 chips by calling and look for a great flop, if not great and on to the next hand, and I am still in the tourney with 10x BB and the BUTTON !!

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My rank of choices...1. call - 11/1 pot odds on the call. only 5% of your stack. If you miss so what (Risk/Reward ratio in yur favor)2. Raise 2000 - I agree that this bet shows more strength than pushing all in, but I do not like throwing half of my chips into the pot with A 8. Is this the hand that you really want to go out on.3. All in- I actually hate this play because you are only getting called by a better hand.  4. You are really never more than 4 to 1 preflop dog so folding while getting 11 to 1 is just wrong.In this hand I am most scared of seat three. It is very possible that he has a hand like AA in my opinion. Considering that Daniel said that we have seen UTG limp then fold to a raise, why it not possible to think that seat three was slowplaying his AA with all of those behind him hoping that someone would raise and then he could go over the top. Most likely if we know that he limps weak then folds to a raise, seat three does prob too. Maybe he was looking for UTG to hit the flop and trap him.I know AA is not a hand in which you want to see a ton of multiway action, but he acted early and did not anticipate that many limping behind him. UTG is prob weak, as prev mentioned, and the button is calling prob with great odds and position.I risk only 200 chips by calling and look for a great flop, if not great and on to the next hand, and I am still in the tourney with 10x BB and the BUTTON !!
DittoGood point that if DN noticed UTG's habits that it makes sense others would too.
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