Working Hard For My Money

[Royal_Tour 0]

So, the biggest thing i've been doing lately, (for the last 2 months) is working on my value betting. and always getting what i think is the max with mediocre hands, mostly because i put villain on a range that i beat, and will call.Hero 300Villain 250 (older asian, i've seen him at venetian 3 times since i started playing there. quiet, decent player. Not too sure whats in his arsenal though, seems like yoru average recreational player)hero is button with A ,A UTG straddle to 4. villain call 4, 2 folds, MP2 call 4. 1 fold, hero raise to 21. sb fold, bb fold. straddle fold. villain call.2players. ($53)flop. 7 ,7 ,9 . villan check. hero bet 42. villain call.turn 6 .villain check, hero check. (if some people dont like this check, please say so)river 3 villain check, hero bet 55.

[Bubba83 0]

If you had the A I wouldn't mind the turn check. I think we should bet about $50-60 on the turn to charge him if he has a single heart.As played, river bet is a size I like, as it now seems he likely holds something like TT

[Royal_Tour 0]

If you had the A I wouldn't mind the turn check. I think we should bet about $50-60 on the turn to charge him if he has a single heart.As played, river bet is a size I like, as it now seems he likely holds something like TT

I thought about that a lot. which is why i'm posting this handI'm torn on what to do if i hold the Ah.4 outs for a boat, and 7 outs for the flush (if he has 2 hearts). But then checking with the Ah, also gives me a free river to see if i make the nut flush. which is also a safe play. although that free river heart could kill action too.So my thinking on the turn check without the Ace of hearts was the current board. Although I risk letting a 4th heart fall, The board aleady shows a straght, a flush, and a pair. In his range, the only thing i'm still ahead of is 10's - K's

[Bubba83 0]

But then checking with the Ah, also gives me a free river to see if i make the nut flush. which is also a safe play. although that free river heart could kill action too.

The reason I like the turn check with the A is it induces bluffs a bunch wether the 4th heart comes or not.The board is pretty scary on the turn, but I don't see him having a straight here ever since you said he is a decent player. If you bet $50 on the turn and get raised, you can fold and it will likely have cost the same as if he has the flush/boat and you pay off a river bet after the turn checks through. Of course this is assuming you don't think he will bluff very often if at all with a turn check raise.

[Royal_Tour 0]

The reason I like the turn check with the A is it induces bluffs a bunch wether the 4th heart comes or not.The board is pretty scary on the turn, but I don't see him having a straight here ever since you said he is a decent player. If you bet $50 on the turn and get raised, you can fold and it will likely have cost the same as if he has the flush/boat and you pay off a river bet after the turn checks through. Of course this is assuming you don't think he will bluff very often if at all with a turn check raise.

well, don't read "decent player" too in depth. when i say decent, i mean he's not a donkey, but thats not too say he wont make a loose call from time to time.i also dont know how much effort he puts into assigning his own range of hands.If i bet the turn and he shovels i fold. but if i bet turn, and he calls then leads the river, I sometimes end up paying those off because of the current pot size and my ability at sucking from time to time.

[Bubba83 0]

You've made some decent cases for the way you played it, and I think I've made a decent case for the way I would have played it, and I'm guessing it's pretty close either way, since each way has it's advantages/disadvantages. I am curious to see what some other usual posters think.

[Royal_Tour 0]

You've made some decent cases for the way you played it, and I think I've made a decent case for the way I would have played it, and I'm guessing it's pretty close either way, since each way has it's advantages/disadvantages. I am curious to see what some other usual posters think.

same.I'm not trying to make the check correct, vs the turn bet. curious how others play it.also, i'm still a bit in the dark about if its the Ah. should we just check it through.

[pt special 0]

i really dislike the turn check, with or without the Ahbasically because if hes calling you pf and the flop he obv still likes his handand with a lot of live donks..im not sure at this level, but that limp usually means a mid pair or mid conn. cardsby checking the turn you get zero information about where your hand is at and you are losing a massive amount of value, by not being able to bet the turn and riverif you dont think hes a good player hes probably incapable of making a move so if you get ck raised you can saftley foldbut if he calls and the river bricks agains and your cked too you can bet the river agains for value

[Royal_Tour 0]

i really dislike the turn check, with or without the Ahbasically because if hes calling you pf and the flop he obv still likes his handand with a lot of live donks..im not sure at this level, but that limp usually means a mid pair or mid conn. cardsby checking the turn you get zero information about where your hand is at and you are losing a massive amount of value, by not being able to bet the turn and riverif you dont think hes a good player hes probably incapable of making a move so if you get ck raised you can saftley foldbut if he calls and the river bricks agains and your cked too you can bet the river agains for value

the bold is what scares me.out of his HUGE range, by limping, and calling my raise and then calling my flop bet. i now only beat 10's-KK's.the turn is pretty awful and I know i'm still lost by checking. but I also see a river safely and can get enough info, or a cheap enough price to see showdown.and if/when he checks the river again, I can value bet.But i dont think a turn bet on this board can be considered value. It would be strictly information. but might even be too late already

[pt special 0]

the bold is what scares me.out of his HUGE range, by limping, and calling my raise and then calling my flop bet. i now only beat 10's-KK's.the turn is pretty awful and I know i'm still lost by checking. but I also see a river safely and can get enough info, or a cheap enough price to see showdown.and if/when he checks the river again, I can value bet.But i dont think a turn bet on this board can be considered value. It would be strictly information. but might even be too late already

ya, his limp calling range is pretty wideand you beat a lot more then TT+, the board is really draw heavy, and hes going to be callin here with pretty much any pocket pair and any hand that includes a 9 and any hand that includes any sort of stragith draw, imo...if you only give him tens your giving him wayyy to much creditand i think a turn bet is for value and info, if hes ck calling im thinking im still ahead unless hes a super trappy playerlike i said its a fold to a ck raiseand if he has a hand like 33-TT or a 9 or any straight draws wwith a heart your giving up a free card for u to losei think u have to bet the turn here almost 100 percent of the time unless you think hes a trappy type of playeralso..post what he had in next post...or say if u got called and he didnt show

[Royal_Tour 0]

he called, and mucked.

[rainbowbrite 0]

i bet the turn and fold if he check raises.i think he can very easily have the flush here already adn is looking to check raise you. if he does it costs you the same amount since you fold to the check raise with out the redraw. If he has a pair with a heart you may get a call here that you may not get on the river if a 4th heart does not fall. so i feel you get info and value from the bet, and i dont see it saving you any money if he does have the flush already. even if he has the flush already and smooth calls you, if you make the boat you snap him. him calling the river i think also shows that he would have called the turn. Also if he calls the turn, and checks the river i fire again if its not a heart. I think his range is fairly wide here.

[Royal_Tour 0]

i bet the turn and fold if he check raises.i think he can very easily have the flush here already adn is looking to check raise you. if he does it costs you the same amount since you fold to the check raise with out the redraw. If he has a pair with a heart you may get a call here that you may not get on the river if a 4th heart does not fall. so i feel you get info and value from the bet, and i dont see it saving you any money if he does have the flush already. even if he has the flush already and smooth calls you, if you make the boat you snap him. him calling the river i think also shows that he would have called the turn. Also if he calls the turn, and checks the river i fire again if its not a heart. I think his range is fairly wide here.

actually, this is where things get interesting IMO. I dont thikn you can say that. 1 - My hand looks a lot like AK now. and in his mind, he's probably thinking, ok. i have a pair., i'm going to check/call most river bets since he checked the turn.

[pt special 0]

i bet the turn and fold if he check raises.i think he can very easily have the flush here already adn is looking to check raise you. if he does it costs you the same amount since you fold to the check raise with out the redraw. If he has a pair with a heart you may get a call here that you may not get on the river if a 4th heart does not fall. so i feel you get info and value from the bet, and i dont see it saving you any money if he does have the flush already. even if he has the flush already and smooth calls you, if you make the boat you snap him. him calling the river i think also shows that he would have called the turn. Also if he calls the turn, and checks the river i fire again if its not a heart. I think his range is fairly wide here.

please post in normal thought out sentences...that was confusing

[rainbowbrite 0]

it could look like ak I agree. however I still think he calls the turn if he is calling the river. Thats a bold river bet for ak. Also hes got to have you on a range not 1 hand. ak is in that range but I guess without him showing it makes putting the story together hard. I think if he really thought he had you beat he would have bet out at the river.

[Royal_Tour 0]

it could look like ak I agree. however I still think he calls the turn if he is calling the river. Thats a bold river bet for ak. Also hes got to have you on a range not 1 hand. ak is in that range but I guess without him showing it makes putting the story together hard. I think if he really thought he had you beat he would have bet out at the river.

Im sure you;re aware, but as you ge further in the hand, your range you have assigned starts to narrow.in this spot, he has me on a certain range preflop, similar range on the flop.on the turn, regardless of the cards that came, its very possible that i now hold AK because i checked it through. even though thats not written in stone in his mind, it could very well be the deciding factor on the river.meaning he was ready to give up the hand if i bet hard on the turn, but now he has a new thought, and feeling and will call the river thinking that I'm stealing.

[Acid_Knight 2]

You should bet the turn most of the time here for the following reasons:It gets value from hands that are still drawing and protects your handIt provides more information about the handIt allows you to check behind on the river or throw out another value bet if a good card fallsIt allows you to more effectively bluff with AK type of hands because you are balancing your range betterIt allows you to more effectively get full value from trips, a full house, flush or other stronger made hand because you are balancing your range betterBut I did say MOST of the time. I don't have a problem with how you play the hand here, but I think that your default should be to bet the turn most times.

[mtdesmoines 3]

You should bet the turn most of the time here for the following reasons:It gets value from hands that are still drawing and protects your handIt provides more information about the handIt allows you to check behind on the river or throw out another value bet if a good card fallsIt allows you to more effectively bluff with AK type of hands because you are balancing your range betterIt allows you to more effectively get full value from trips, a full house, flush or other stronger made hand because you are balancing your range betterBut I did say MOST of the time. I don't have a problem with how you play the hand here, but I think that your default should be to bet the turn most times.

I agree with putting pressure on and getting value from good hands.

[David_Nicoson 1]

I raise more preflop with the intent of getting all my chips in unimproved.I like the check on the turn, because I think it insures that we get paid off one more bet on the river with an overpair. I think you could get paid off for 100 on the river, assuming the villain has a pair.

[krup24 0]

i raise a tad more pf as well and in turn a larger/committing flop bet. as played i have no problem with the hand at all. the turn check is well iffy. seriously you want to put ur hand through the wall if another heart (obv not A) hits or a 9 and he shows down 88 or TT w/ a heart or a 9. acid's points 1 and 3 are the reasons i bet the turn.i still think this hand plays fine as played.

[TeeSludge 0]

I don't mind checking the turn here sometimes, depending on the villain. If you think that it is likely that he will fold hands that are only drawing to a few outs but will call a river bet with them then its a good play. However, because of this board texture I don't think there are that many hands like this.. pairs that don't have a heart and 9x without hearts. The other reason would be to avoid getting crai by a hand that is worst then yours. If the villain is unlikely to do so then we don't have to worry much about this. I think if you are going to check the turn you could have gotten more value on the river and bet $100. Although I don't mind your play I think it is best to bet the turn and go from there. Just thinking about something else now too though.. Say we bet $75 or $100 on the turn and he crai, it's only going to be about another $100-$125 to us right? That sucks if its possible he shoves with Ah9 or 8h9x.

[Temporary Nuts 1]

That 6 was an uber disgusting card. Are you guys sure it's ok to bet this turn given how often we get check-raised on a hand that just completed?

[Acid_Knight 2]

Another unmentioned consideration:The more straightforward the villain, the more likely I am to bet this turn. If he's a tricky aggro guy, I check behind here with a much higher frequency and I check behind with a much wider range as well with the intention of showing the hand down as cheaply as possible.

[Bubba83 0]

I'm with Acid Knight there... As I said before if he's capable of check raising air/semibluffing on the turn I like the check, but the reads suggest that he isn't crafty so I'd bet. I disagree with the "If he called the river he would have called the turn" logic, that makes no sense because if you bet the turn your hand looks a TON stronger than it does checking the turn and betting the river after being checked to. Also, those of you who are saying bet the turn, how much? I like $50-55 because it sufficiently charges him with a draw and gives us the same information as a larger bet, costing us less if he CRAIs.

[rainbowbrite 0]

Id probally bet 60 and if he calls and checks again id bet 100 i think your very unlikley to get check raised and if he checks the river I really cant see him calling much, but at that point if he has a pair and busted draw he may pay you the 100. I just don't feel we have strong reason to think we do not have the best hand here. Maybe he folds the turn but imo 50-60 he still calls on the turn