Moving Up Two Levels?

[SpiderGuard 0]

I've been playing Stud8 and Razz at $0.25/0.50, the lowest level Full Tilt offers. I'm fairly confident that I'm beating that game, and have the bankroll to move up to the next level. However, there is very rarely a $0.50/$1.00 game running so I'm stuck playing the lowest limit. I'm not really comfortable playing $1/$2 - I'm not sure my game's ready for that yet, and honestly an average pot of $8 or $9 is intimidating for me with my bankroll (and I'm not nearly well rolled enough to try). What do you all recommend?

[drcossack 0]

I've been playing Stud8 and Razz at $0.25/0.50, the lowest level Full Tilt offers. I'm fairly confident that I'm beating that game, and have the bankroll to move up to the next level. However, there is very rarely a $0.50/$1.00 game running so I'm stuck playing the lowest limit. I'm not really comfortable playing $1/$2 - I'm not sure my game's ready for that yet, and honestly an average pot of $8 or $9 is intimidating for me with my bankroll (and I'm not nearly well rolled enough to try). What do you all recommend?

Take a shot. I wasn't all that impressed when I played $1/$2 HORSE.

[Cappy37 0]

I've been playing Stud8 and Razz at $0.25/0.50, the lowest level Full Tilt offers. I'm fairly confident that I'm beating that game, and have the bankroll to move up to the next level. However, there is very rarely a $0.50/$1.00 game running so I'm stuck playing the lowest limit. I'm not really comfortable playing $1/$2 - I'm not sure my game's ready for that yet, and honestly an average pot of $8 or $9 is intimidating for me with my bankroll (and I'm not nearly well rolled enough to try). What do you all recommend?

Speaking from Stars experience, 80% of your players at .50/1 and up for Stud8 have enough of a grasp of the game to make profitting significantly over the rake minimal. If I were in your shoes I would spend more time in Razz, where it's a zero-sum game and you have a few more weapons at your disposal to earn profits besides "showing down the best hand"....If you are into the split game, o8b is *very* popular, *very* donktastic, and you have a much better shot at getting action from WB's on your scoop efforts than in Stud8. o8b is also the easiest game to multi-table, AINEC. No upcards, play your hands, tight and aggressive is right. If the fixed-limit o8b tables at FT aren't 10-handed, that's so much the better.I've found through about 15k hands of stud8 that Stud8 tables aren't overly profitable at all (even with the occasional ATM you can spot almost right away) compared to playing Stud8 in a HORSE environment, where you can really punish subpar play.'Hope this helps

[SpiderGuard 0]

Thanks for the thoughts - definitely interested in thoughts from other folks. I'll give micro Limit O8 a try tonight. Never really played Limit O8, so it'll be an experience

[checkymcfold 0]

i'll have to disagree with cappy--i make a great deal of money at middle limit stud8. you just have to be willing to push thin equity edges for all they're worth, and inflate pots on earlier streets to a greater degree. if you do that, you'll keep winning as you move up.

[Cappy37 0]

i'll have to disagree with cappy--i make a great deal of money at middle limit stud8. you just have to be willing to push thin equity edges for all they're worth, and inflate pots on earlier streets to a greater degree. if you do that, you'll keep winning as you move up.

And I'll have to agree with checky, because I *don't* make a great deal of money at middle limit stud8. ;)I assume this is one game where you play it closer to the vest, though, checky? Because it's so hard to maneuver people out of pots in Stud 8, I would think o8b would be an easier target to play an aggressive style.Or perhaps you could give us bottom-feeders a good example or two of pushing small edges in Stud8?

[ahosang 0]

Speaking from Stars experience, 80% of your players at .50/1 and up for Stud8 have enough of a grasp of the game to make profitting significantly over the rake minimal. If I were in your shoes I would spend more time in Razz, where it's a zero-sum game and you have a few more weapons at your disposal to earn profits besides "showing down the best hand"..........I've found through about 15k hands of stud8 that Stud8 tables aren't overly profitable at all (even with the occasional ATM you can spot almost right away) compared to playing Stud8 in a HORSE environment, where you can really punish subpar play.'Hope this helps

Very disturbing post. Don't try to put people off the game by suggesting there's no profit. Stud8 is one of the most difficult games to fully understand, especially if your grounding in stud is not comprehensive(since most poker players these days first learn HE, this is quite normal to be the case) and if you're not profitable then seriously, it's more likely to be due to the fact that you're not maximising early edges. checkymcfold is hinting at some of the things that you can look at. Now I'm not going to go into long tutorial, but some of my suggestions:a ) Look at loosening/tightening up early. there are no such things as standard starting hands(apart from rolled trips) - only good starting scenarios. This is a combination of your cards, all the upcards that are seen, and the tendencies of the players at the table. Live cards are a massive part of stud, and opponent tendencies are a massive part of all poker games.b ) 4th street is so important in stud8 - judicious raise/fold are winning plays. It is necessary to be very aware of the different common scenarios and the odds pertaining to them.c ) Ram-jam is the weapon of a winning stud8 player once the basics of 3rd and 4th street play are learned. If you're not willing to raise, c/r, and generally jam 4th, 5th, and 6th then you'll be a break-even or losing player. checky said it about inflating pots. Playing the usual low starters, then calling passively all the time is a losing game. Ram-jam puts pressure on weak-tights to fold. It makes the pot worthwhile to split. It inflates your scoop pots too. It means when you have monster, you get calls from experts as well as stations.Of course, you don't always ram-jam...d ) 6th street you will have to make some crucial 3-way folds and hate it, but the pots will often not be large enough to chase if ram-jam has not taken place earlier.e ) Non-standard hands: In the games of 7-stud, as opposed to LO8, nonstandard hands can be played and frequently get callers from chasers who will often brick and fold 4th or 5th, or even the river!! In stud8 the brick is a hi card and you can see this quite clearly; in stud-hi, it's harder to tell for sure if they bricked.I cannot reveal how to play non-standard hands as it better for me personally if these ideas are not broadcast over the net, but suffice to say that defending your antes and trying to make the rubbish hands more profitable(or less costly) should be a major part of your research and practice. I cannot stress enough how important this is to profitability. This is the sort of thing that pushes profitability into the 'juicy' level. If you are folding all the non-standard hands and not fighting for pots, then you will miss out on exploiting weak-tights and nits. Exploiting players' tendencies is the name of the game, not making hands!!!The name of the game is also hi-lo, not razz or lowball...To sum up, if you just play the obvious starters and play those hands weakly, you'll be just like most stud8 players online. You need to put in some thought, research and courage in order to win. But guaranteed profit is there if you do.

[SpiderGuard 0]

Ram-jam puts pressure on weak-tights to fold. It makes the pot worthwhile to split. It inflates your scoop pots too. It means when you have monster, you get calls from experts as well as stations.Of course, you don't always ram-jam...

Oh yes I do ;)Interesting posts from all - please keep 'em coming.

[Cappy37 0]

I would like to point out that if my post got Ahosang to post all that, then my post was a success ;)And I won 2 full buy ins in a couple hours on the stud8 tables tonight, so maybe I am learning. What I should have said is this: on stars, I've found that most of the players I've marked as "He's good, stay away if possible" are in the .50/1 Stud8 game with greater frequency. than o8b/razz/(even) horse. Is that a better way to put it?

[checkymcfold 0]

asohang's post is amazingly good, and correct on all points. but like him, i'm a bit skeptical of saying too much more in terms of details for fear of turning weak-tight stud8 players into good ones at the middle limits. so far, there's very little good non-HE advice on the net for public consumption (2+2 included), and it's nice for us non-HE players to keep it that way. :)but read asohang's post, digest it, and start thinking about those sorts of things with regard to specific hands as you play and you'll notice that you're going to start beating stud8 for a LOT more than you can beat LHE or even LO8 in lots of settings.