New To H/l, Donking Some Chips

[StilettoNole 0]

OK, so I am not an experineced Omaha H/L. I was just donking around when this hand came up. I tanked forever and then figured that calling was correct. What do you think?Full Tilt PokerPot Limit Omaha Hi/Lo Ring gameBlinds: $0.10/$0.256 playersConverterStack sizes:UTG: $19.15UTG+1: $8.60CO: $11.80Button: $7.70SB: $5.55hero: $23.30Pre-flop: (6 players) hero is BB with A K J A UTG calls, 3 folds, SB calls, hero raises to $0.6, UTG calls, SB calls.Flop: T 6 4 ($1.8, 3 players)SB checks, hero bets $0.9, UTG calls, SB folds.Turn: T ($3.6, 2 players)hero checks, UTG bets $3.6, hero calls.River: T ($10.8, 2 players)hero checks, UTG bets $10.8, hero calls.Results:Final pot: $32.4

[StilettoNole 0]

Looking over it, I think the call on the turn is pretty bad. Meh.I guess the pressing question that I have is if I have aces and the board has trips, can you fold?

[rjf826 0]

General rule is don't leave home without a chance to make a low. In this case, since you are the big blind, you can definitely take off the flop, and maybe hit it hard, but you shouldn't raise. With the 6-4 on the flop, you are likely drawing to half the pot, but you don't even have the nut flush draw (but K hi 6 handed may work). Once the board pairs, I think you can safely toss it. You don't have a low draw, you don't have the nut flush draw, and even if you make the flush it may be no good. You can make a case for the bet on the flop based on your preflop raise, but once they both call, I think AA is beat once the turn hits, if it wasn't already. I'd like this hand/flop a lot better with a low draw, especially after the turn.

[rjf826 0]

Once the board trips with the 10s, I think you have to call.... Although I strongly disagree with even getting to that point.

[checkymcfold 0]

bet/folding the turn, then bet/folding the river (about 1/2 pot if called) would make the decision easier .preflop, this is a very good hand, just to clear that up.

[jmkiser 0]

In re-reading over this.... this is what I saw (I don't play big bet poker so tell me where I'm slipped up)The only thing that can beat Hero is a 10.UTG can have a very very large range of hands.Don't we have to call the river with the second nut in this situation?I can't really say much about how the rest of the hand went down... again, not an expert or even claim to be skilled in big bet poker.... I can hold my own heads up and in tournaments, that's about it

[checkymcfold 0]

In re-reading over this.... this is what I saw (I don't play big bet poker so tell me where I'm slipped up)The only thing that can beat Hero is a 10.UTG can have a very very large range of hands.Don't we have to call the river with the second nut in this situation?I can't really say much about how the rest of the hand went down... again, not an expert or even claim to be skilled in big bet poker.... I can hold my own heads up and in tournaments, that's about it

you're right on all points, but the thing is that if we bet the turn and river, the only hand that a non-retard can raise us with is going to be a ten (on the turn, it's reasonable to assume we have one of two tens, so raising KK or worse would be bad to two barrels, and if we fire another bullet on the river, raising anything but a ten is somewhat suicidal since a raise can't expect a worse hand to call ever). in general, the only time you want to go passive with a semi-strong hand in pl/nlo8 is when you're positive you're ahead and want a villain to bluff at you relentlessly since they can't call a bet. otherwise, betting is the proper way to maximize value in almost all spots, especially when raises on any street mean you can safely fold your hand.but yea, as played, i think you have to call. but you lose about half the time.

[navybuttons 15]

bet/folding the turn, then bet/folding the river (about 1/2 pot if called) would make the decision easier .preflop, this is a very good hand, just to clear that up.

correct on all points.

[jmbreslin 0]

General rule is don't leave home without a chance to make a low.

I've never heard this - I can understand never leaving home without a chance to make a high, since drawing to a low-only hand is a very unprofitable strategy, but what's wrong with playing a strong high-only hand?I think Hero has to call the river but I probably wouldn't bother with the CB on the flop and I probably would have folded the turn. I'd be worried about villain holding Tx, including T6 and T4, 44, and 66. Hero has the strongest 2P, but if villain already has trips or a full house Hero is drawing very, very thin.

[Frez 0]

I've never heard this - I can understand never leaving home without a chance to make a high, since drawing to a low-only hand is a very unprofitable strategy, but what's wrong with playing a strong high-only hand?

If you've never heard this you can't have heard much about split games. It's probably more accurate to say that you should never play hands that can't win the entire pot - and certainly a high only hand can do this when no low comes, but there are VERY few hands that are high only that are very strong hands in O8. Stud high low if different because you can start with a set, but in O8 you're only looking at AA hands with two face cards double suited. Even hands that are 4 non Ace facecards are only breakeven.

[jmbreslin 0]

I know you should ideally play hands that are potentially strong high and low hands, but to say that you should only play such hands sounds a bit strong to me. Playing high only can be profitable because there is often no low hand. That's why combinations of four high cards is considered a decent starting hand in PLO8, is it not?

[Frez 0]

Ya, but like I said high hands that strong are rare. There are very few high only hands I would want more than an A246s. Position matters of course, if things are folded aound to me in LP I'll open-raise a lot of high only hands that I would limp or even fold up front.Don't ever make the mistake of thinking TcJdQsKh is a very good hand.

[jmbreslin 0]

Don't ever make the mistake of thinking TcJdQsKh is a very good hand.

True, but high-only hands like AsAdQsKh or AsKhQhJs are definitely worth playing.

[raptor22dneg 0]

True, but high-only hands like AsAdQsKh or AsKhQhJs are definitely worth playing.

True, but high-only hands like AsAdQsKh or AsKhQhJs are definitely worth playing.

True, but the key here is these hands are just worth playing but not rated the top hands that can make u a lot of money in this game, i rate the second one as a play with caution or at your own risk hand to be honest. Now yes omaho hi only these hands are much better to be raising with preflop etc., but FREZ is right I'd much rather have the A246s than AsAdQsKh or AsKhQhJs. MUCH RATHER!!!! In PLO8 there are so many more chances of the low nut hitting with our nice low hand than your high nut hands hitting. And the key word here is NUT.... And with the nut low hitting a lot more often than your nut high with those starting hands...you will have more chances to scope the pot (in my oppinion the point of the game) because if I'm playing you in a pot and your only playing for just the high hand, then i can exploit that to my advantage. Lets look at an example:You take the AsKhQhJs hand you said was "worth" playing and I'll take FREZ's hand Ah2s4c6s lol.... okay lets get on with it:Say the flop comes 3h8hKs: Now you might say this flop looks great for your hand, you have top pair top kicker and a King high flush draw, sounds nice and the 3,8 arent very coordinated so hopefully u have the best hand as of now, but I say it looks a hell of a lot better for my hand! Lets see why: I have the nut low draw and that can only be counterfitted with a runner runner A, 2, and/or 4 so im looking pretty good with two cards to come to make my NUT low here. Plus, i have the Ah which in my eyes means i know that no one is on the nut flush draw! Which is an extremely important piece of information and you'll see why. I bet out this flop to increase the size of the pot so I can exploit that later.The Turn comes a 5h:Now ive hit my nut low with no chance that i can be counterfitted because if anyone of my cards hit i have back up with my 4c to make a nut low again. You have hit your King high flush which looks great on the outside but what i have up my sleave is not going to be very pretty and will put u to a tough decision, (which is why these high only hands are so much trouble!)I bet out the hand again almost the entire pot which on the turn might not be too much for you to call. U call with the King high flush. the River comes a Jc: this card is meaningless for our hands but that isnt the point of the river in this case...the point is that with my nut low and knowing since I have the Ah, you can not have the nut flush. Now I have built the pot up nicely by betting my hand every street so i can POT it on the river for probably your entire stack bc that is what the pot may be at by this time and it will be very difficult to call me without the nut flush because not knowing what i have i could have the nut flush and have u beat with the high hand here. And i know how hard this will be for u to make this call,....a call u should not be making at all with a lot of money. You correctly fold your hand thinking it is not worth calling 500 dollars without the Ace high flush bc more times than not the nut flush is out there, and I end up taking the entire pot without splitting with not much worry at all. So you can see playing these types of hands it is much easier to play confidently with the lows than it can be with the highs....plus the high hands change so much from one card to another so putting your money in the pot with the nut high at the time may not always be the best play because as soon as the turn or river hits you will not have the nut high hand anymore so u just wasted your money with no hope of ever getting it back and the saga will continue like this if u like high only starting hands.Moral of the story:With nut lows and even second nut lows you can get more people to fold high hands by betting big on the end because ideally it is not profitable to be calling without the nut high in any case by the river. So when the pot is big and I make a big bet on the river or turn it will be tough for players to call with sets or non nut flushes or just not the NUTs in general, which probability says you will not make the nut high very often on the river. And even if u are calling big bet after big bet to the river to finally catch your NUT flush on the end you are still just basically getting your money back if any lows hit at all......Now the only way these hands play well is in a no low possibility on the flop which will not happen very often.hope this makes it more clear

[jmbreslin 0]

Well, the one advantage of high-only hands over low-only hands is that the likelihood of being quartered is almost nil. The most frustrating thing in PLO8 is hitting your nut low and still losing money because villain has also hit the nut low in addition to his high hand (happened to me 3 times last night). If you had to choose between high-only and low-only, isn't playing high-only the better choice because of the protection against quartering?E.g., compare AAKJ 2-suited vs. A256 rainbowPlaying the AAKJ carries little risk with high reward because you'll either hit a good high hand or a good draw to a high hand, or you'll throw it away. The A256 may give you the nut low or a draw to the nut low but you run the risk of being quartered and actually losing money.I definitely understand the benefit of playing only hands that give you a chance of hitting both, but if a good high-only or low-only hand comes along, isn't the high-only hand more valuable?

[checkymcfold 0]

fwiw, i make more money with high only hands in NL/PL o8 variants, and more money with low connectors in limit.take that for what you will.