ethical poker move?

[ragepoppa 0]

Hey Guys, Hey guys,I was in a basement game the other night at the final table with 5 players left. I'm in the small blind, and everyone folds. I dont have alot of chips but enough to cover probably 3 or 4 more blinds. I get dealt AK off suit and go all in. The blinds were rather high and a steal would be great if you asked me. The big blind deliberates for at least a minute or 2 then calls me with Q 10 suited, pairs up the 10's to beat me and sends me packin' in 5th place. Then I started to think afterwards.....would it have been ethical for me to show him my cards while he's deliberating wether to call? If I showed my Ace to the table he would have folded for sure and I could have standed a chance to place higher. The house rules are if you show your card to one person, the whole table must see. I'm thinkin' I should have showed him my Ace and maybe next time if I'm in that situation I will. What do you guys think???The Rage :twisted:

If your playing internet poker and the cards just arent coming for you, try taking your pants off....you'll be pleasantly surprised!!

[Vade 0]

Why? You want a call here.You're a significant favorite and doubling up helps a LOT more then stealing the blinds with one of the better hands in poker.

[benhoug 0]

I don't know what official rules are on such a matter, and actually I think they vary from place to place, but I think this is total bush-league poker. You shouldn't be able to show your cards to someone left in the hand. If you did that in my game I'd probably call you a Dick and not invite you back.

[Rman3911 0]

That's gay, don't do it

[jack24bauer24 0]

You can show your cards if its just heads up, there's nothing wrong with doing so.

[JimD82 0]

I don't know if this is really an ethical question. It really depends on the rules. You used to be aloud to show your cards during a hand to intimidate or get a read on opponents in tournaments, but I think the rules have changed for most/all casino tournaments. I could be wrong on that. If your friends game allows showing and you think it's the right move go right ahead. In this spot you want a call from a dominated hand but not necessarily from two live cards. Find out the rules ahead of time and act accordingly is my advice.

[skoal_dip 0]

I think showing the ace might be more likely to induce a call, because he'll probably figure you to have a very weak kicker and are just looking to intimidate. I'm not talking about if he has q 10 here, just any ramdom hand.

[ragepoppa 0]

Well I didn't do it and I guess you are right. It probably would be pretty arrogant. He sure was taking a hell of a long time to call, it was late and everyones patience was getting thin.The Rage :evil:

[Diabolical 0]

at this time, If you are in a cash game, you can show your cards to your opponent to get a read on him. In a touney, you cannot show your cards until the action is dead. If you do, your hand will be declared dead and you lose the hand. You can't even make a verbal announcement as to what you are holding. If you do, your hand will be dead and you lose the pot. If you verbally "lie" about what you have, that is OK and you still can take down the pot.

[Guest]

Showing him and wanting to fold....Your basing in this on the results. you WANT him to call when your holding AK. Unfortunately, he drew out on youworry not about whether it was ethical or not; what you wanted to do. Be pissed that he drew out.......

[ragepoppa 0]

whats the sklansky rating on a Q 10 suited pocket hand ???

[theresa113 0]

Someone I play with has done this twice to me in the past. Each time, it was on the river. Each time, I had either 3 of a kind or a straight and he had a better hand. Each time, it was somewhere between 3-5 AM. I guess he wanted to save me some money... others at the table teased him that he is sweet on me (which I wish it were true, but it is not.) I think he just feels we are friends and he doesn't want me to do something stupid (i.e. lose a lot of money on a big bet) late in the evening.However... I wish he wouldn;t do this and I have asked him not to do this again. I know he just wanted to help me out, but I will never learn if he were to continue this behavior. I think the move, whether it is for your protection or someone elses, is just the wrong thing to do. Poker is about not knowing and making a decision, not the other way around.

[711Buddha 0]

I can't imagine why you'd want him to fold when you have AK.

[TheIceman05 0]

I don't know what official rules are on such a matter, and actually I think they vary from place to place, but I think this is total bush-league poker.  You shouldn't be able to show your cards to someone left in the hand.  If you did that in my game I'd probably call you a Dick and not invite you back.

Wha...?You're kidding, right? If it's heads up, what's the problem with screwing with someone's head by showing somebody an Ace (or a ten, for that matter, assuming it's not against the rules)? Lighten up, man. Is it bush-league to talk shit to induce a call (or fold)?In any case, it IS against the rules in most poker rooms. I don't think it's unethical. But it's definitely stupid. Why on Earth would you want a fold here, when a call doubles you up and puts you right back in it? QT is about the best non-pair hand he could have here, so that's the BEST hand you really want calling, and you're still ahead. If he's got a dominated ace, you're gonna double through significantly more often than normal. Ice

[pokerstar 0]

I have to agree with one of the previous posters - Why would you possibly want him to fold? So you can continue short stacked?You should be raising here with the hope of being called, not just picking up a few blinds.Just my opinion though.

[razorhate 0]

Showing him and wanting to fold....Your basing in this on the results. you WANT him to call when your holding AK. Unfortunately, he drew out on youworry not about whether it was ethical or not; what you wanted to do. Be censored that he drew out.......

if i was on the bubble of the money, i might do it. Depends on the situation. Against a random hand AK is just 65%. Well, instead of showing the ace, i would just say, "I'll show you my hand". otherwise he knows that you do not have a high pocket pair (if you had aces, you obviously would not show him the ace . . . right?), and would feel comfortable and justified in calling you with any pocket pair, including twos. If you tell him "i will show", you basically have eliminated two or three hands . . .ACES, KINGs, and possibly QUEENS. Now, in his head, if he has a pocket pair, the worst case scenario is the he is dominated (unless of course he has one of those three hands, in which case you are screwed anyway. he will not call you, more likely than not, with pocket twos through pocket eights, more likely than not. You show him that ace, and he calls you with any poclet pair. if your gonna show him that ace, you are giving him A LOT of information. and it is kind of sketchy.

[doudave 0]

most of the places i have played you can show your cards in a regular game but you cannot show them in a tourney, if you do your hand is dead. Theres actually a story that i have heard where a top pro in a tourney was trying to pull a bluff and the guy called his first bet so on the turn he told him lets check it all the way down and the guy agrred and turn his cards over, thats when the pro called the floor and had the guys hand mucked and won the hand, theres ethical for u...

[Socrates 0]

If it is a tourney then the hand is dead. Even with home game rules, usually it is only the person faced with calling the all in bet that can turn over their cards and only if there is no action to follow. I say your hand is dead.

[Makavelli 0]

I can't imagine why you'd want him to fold when you have AK.

Because it's a tournament, not a cash game. you want to take the pot down, not risk 60/40 that you're out with no money. You don't want a call there. You want 100% chance of stealing the blind rather than a 60% chance of, what, two more blinds? with a 40% chance of going home.(64/36 to be more exact)

[ragepoppa 0]

I just wanted to take the pot down. I wanted to show him the ace to let him know that I wasn't attempting to steal with nothing. I dont know, I can see alot of different points here. Now that I think of it and from what I've heard from some of you guys, it would seem quite arrogant to show the cards, but as I'm sure some of you guys know, when it gets that late in the game, and everyones drinking, there's alot of guys flipping their cards around, showing people their cards and unethical play. Especially in home basement tourneys. I would never even think of showing in a casino tourney. The rules are still the rules no matter what the situation is.... drinking or not and we as card players should "abide to that" I suppose is the right thing to say.Maybe I should have just said something to him instead of showing. Maybe something like..."If you can beat Ace King go ahead and call"Taking 2 minutes to make the call was quite irritating I remember.The Rage :twisted:

[JistTheFist 0]

I believe in most places once it is down to only two players left in the hand, it's not against the rules.... that's what makes poker fun,.... messing with peoples heads....however... I think you're better move is to place them side by side and say "I'll show you the one you pick before you call".... he starts to think you have a pocket pair possibly.... then he flips over an ace or a king.... and he might fold because he thinks you have KK or AA.....or maybe he flips the king and thinks you have king high, or ace high.... whatever the case... if he folds, great you got what you wanted and stole some blinds... if he calls, great he just called your all in when you had AK.

[ragepoppa 0]

Damn why didn't I think of that? That move is used often. On top of that there could be a number of things said to him as well to mess with him like:"just to let you know.... I'm not trying to steal, I have good cards here brother!! and to prove it, I'll let you see one of my cards, whichever one you want." How correct you are, this does lead the opponent to believe that you have a pair and who cares which one he sees when you have ACE King, you still have good odds to take the hand.The Rage :twisted:

[ThatPkrGuy 0]

LOL i show my cards all the time in heads up cash games....ya know when that guy moves all in and wont talk and sits there with that blank stare.....turn both cards up and see what kind of reaction you get and then base your call on that :)But like everyone else has said depends on rules ect ect

[kaisersoze12 0]

There is a guy in Illinois that plays often at the Casino near my house. He has a terrible tell. He looks at his first card when it is dealt and if it is an Ace, he hollers "Pair me up dealer". If the second ace comes, he hollers "Woohoo" loud enough for the poker room to hear. Everyone knows he has Aces and it is pretty funny.So now... People start thinking he is using it as a bluff or something so he immediately raises and flips them over to show his aces then lets someone play against him. He usually gets people to see a flop, then they often lay it down after that. He rarely looses with Aces anymore from what I have seen.Is that bush league? The poker room allows it, and I think it is pretty funny but I would never do it.

[AceyDeucy 0]

In a tournament, prematurely showing you hand kills it. Period. Now, most TDs will protect a player who couldn't hold his wad back after he was all-in and forgot that the action wasn't complete, sicne the player obviously didn't want to muck if he was all-in, so more often than not, if you are already all-in in a tournament and table your cards early, the TD will let you play your hand face-up.That said, I don't see how you have anything to gain here. All you are doing is guaranteeing that you will not get action from any hand you want action from. Yes, you will most likely win a small pot, but with AK, you want to play a big pot. Further, if you flip, and your opponent has a pocket pair, he can now insta-call with absolute confidence. Take Daniel's advice: The better your opponent, the less you do. Don't try to influence people or do any skullduggery, because you are just giving them more data, and they might always be at least as clever at yourself, and figure out what you want them to do, and then disappoint you. Always remember, the information you give won't always have the result you want. There was a story in Brunson's book (Poker Wisdom of a Champion) about a stud game where a guy showing an ace proved he couldn't beat Doyle. The other half of it is that doing that often comes out as really bush. it is hard to pull the card-showing manuever off and not annoy people (I saw Josh Arieh do it once at a tournament when he had absolute garbage) so just save yourself the trapeze act.Don't worry about tricks like this, that only work once, and sometime not even then, if your read is bad. Keep it simple, call the clock if it gets stupid, but otherwise, just let him make the decision as much in the dark as possible.