Lost And Confused

[Frez 0]

CryptologicLimit Holdem Ring gameLimit: $2/$47 playersConverterPre-flop: (7 players) Frezinator is CO with T T UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, Frezinator raises, Button folds, SB calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.Flop: 6 8 3 (8SB, 4 players)SB bets, BB calls, UTG+1 folds, Frezinator raises, SB calls, BB calls.Turn: J (7BB, 3 players)SB bets, BB folds, Frezinator calls.River: 2 (9BB, 2 players)SB bets, Frezinator has fallen and can't get up.Minimal data on villan.Flop is a must raise I am sure. Should I repop the turn and hope for a cheap showdown UI? If so, what do I do if he donks river and I don't set up?Can anyone tell me what is happening? Is this pot big enough to call?

[navybuttons 15]

i play the same. 9:1 is easily enough to call the river. he could be valuebetting a hand you beat.

[craiger 0]

Flop raise is standard. I don't really like the turn raise here (so I think you called correctly), especially since the J didn't slow him down. And a turn raise will still cost you 2 bets if he checks the river, the same amount as if you just call both streets. So you aren't really getting a "cheap" showdown. Also, I don't think a worse hand than yours calls a turn raise either...and since no draw hit on the turn, he likely is not drawing. Having said that, it doesn't feel like the J hit him on the turn, since he called a flop raise...and I don't think he does that with A-J or Q-J very often at all. Meh, this feels like A-8 or a flopped set. I call the river to gain info on villain for future hands. You played it how I would have.

[navybuttons 15]

he called a flop raise...and I don't think he does that with A-J or Q-J very often at all.

i think he does it 100% of the time.

I call the river to gain info on villain for future hands.

i don't like it.

[Metternich 0]

other than a set or possibly a jack, what are we afraid of here? I feel like a larger PP would have reraised preflop, though I play at much lower limits than this. I probably play it the same, but I'm confident about doing so.

[craiger 0]

i think he does it 100% of the time.i don't like it.

You think that the SB is so aggressive and clueless that he would lead out on that flop into THREE other players, with only overcards? There is no way the SB bet in that spot without a piece of the flop. And as for calling the river...I think we have to. Why call a turn bet if we aren't planning on calling a river bet when the total brick comes off? Yes I know it was the flush card but we can't fold here. Not getting 9 to 1.

[navybuttons 15]

You think that the SB is so aggressive and clueless that he would lead out on that flop into THREE other players, with only overcards?

people make mistakes. i've seen people make way stupider moves at limits 10x this. i was just saying that he's always calling.

Why call a turn bet if we aren't planning on calling a river bet when the total brick comes off?

this is diluted thinking. i recommend not doing this.

we can't fold here. Not getting 9 to 1.

i advocated calling. i was saying that gaining information is not a reason to call.

[craiger 0]

people make mistakes. i've seen people make way stupider moves at limits 10x this. i was just saying that he's always calling.this is diluted thinking. i recommend not doing this.i advocated calling. i was saying that gaining information is not a reason to call.

Okay so you are saying that the SB could have made a mistake by calling with overcards...I agree, that could be the case. But isn't our goal to take the course of action based on what is MOST LIKELY to be the situation (and not what OCCASIONALLY is the situation)? I'm saying that he could have overs of course, be he most likely does not. As for the turn...I assume you are saying that calling a turn bet and then folding to a river bet when the 2 comes off is okay. Well then why would we even call the turn bet? To hope we hit a 2 outer to improve? What better card could we have hoped for (other than a 10) on the river that would have advocated us calling?

[RabidTortuga 0]

I play it the same. This could be any number of things, a small set, T9, A8, J8, lots of other random hands.

[Tactical Bear 3]

i advocated calling. i was saying that gaining information is not a reason to call.

Actually, when somebody takes weird lead-out lines, I call a little lighter on the river, because in this case the information ACTUALLY IS incredibly valuable. I'm not paying off with, like, Q-high, but I really want to know what he's doing this with. If it turns out he's doing it really REALLY light, like with a draw or middle pair, we can punish and isolate him with relative ease. If it turns out he's taking this line with bottom two, that's valuable, too. If I'm at all unhappy for any reason, I raise the turn and check the river. If I'm playing reasonably, I call slightly out of rythym and then call the river.Wang

[navybuttons 15]

Okay so you are saying that the SB could have made a mistake by calling with overcards...I agree, that could be the case. But isn't our goal to take the course of action based on what is MOST LIKELY to be the situation (and not what OCCASIONALLY is the situation)? I'm saying that he could have overs of course, be he most likely does not.

we're not communicating very well, but okay. it's not "MOST LIKELY" or "OCCASIONALLY". its a range, and while overs do not make up a huge part of his range, they are apart of it.if villain had overs, calling a raise on the flop would not be a mistake.

[Frez 0]

Actually, when somebody takes weird lead-out lines,

This is what really has me confused. What is he leading the flop with, then only flat calling a raise, then leading the turn again?He could call the flop with overs, but would/should he lead the flop?

[longshottwelve 0]

This is what really has me confused. What is he leading the flop with, then only flat calling a raise, then leading the turn again?He could call the flop with overs, but would/should he lead the flop?

It seems unlikely, but maybe J8s. I can see someone doing this with maybe AJ, too. I think calling down is correct for the above reasons.

Actually, when somebody takes weird lead-out lines, I call a little lighter on the river, because in this case the information ACTUALLY IS incredibly valuable.

I agree with this.

[navybuttons 15]

What is he leading the flop with, then only flat calling a raise, then leading the turn again?

a weak made hand, 79, a strong hand. take your pick. i take this line with a lot of hands when i'm in the right gear. against my range when i take a line like this TT is probably the best hand 50% of the time.

but would/should he lead the flop?

sometimes. i don't think it's an inherent mistake. but in a bubble, i don't like it.

[southsidepoker 0]

Could it be possible on that junky rainbow flop he is slow playing a set , letting the BB in on the flop by flat calling and hoping to get extra bets on the turn and river where he can bet more? That might explain why the jack didn't scare him and he led out on the turn and river. I don't play much limit but that is what the betting pattern looks like to me.

[Zach6668 513]

Skimmed replies.Flop is good.I call down from turn, and I do agree that the information is valuable if you'll be playing this villain a lot. If I'm playing HU, I'll take this passive line early in a match, or vs an unknown, but later on, I may make a different play, depending on what I've learned here. Of course, in full ring LHE, the information isn't nearly as valuable as it is in HU. (Check TheBryce posts on StoxPoker for interesting informational environments discussions.)

[cubbybri 0]

This is tough with an unknown player. My experience tells me you are quite beat here. I cannot see opponent having less than tp here in most situations. I think OCs easily can donk/call and donk turn when hitting the J. If you believe he can have rag 2 pair here(poor pf call in SB) then you need to also include some straight draws in his range(increasing the need for a showdown).So I can see this as a turn fold or a calldown. What you cannot do is call the turn and fold the river. I think, I save my 2 BBs in this situation and let someone else prove he is a donk. Then you can profit from the info someone else dishes out. May be considered weak tight but I tend to give respect to unknown opponents until proven they are donks. If they are donks you will learn soon enough.