1mperium (sorel Mizzi) In A Heap Of Trouble...

[bull62 0]

who is andy mcleod ? and how are these young kids so good ?

http://www.officialpokerrankings.com/poker...FBFB67.html?t=2

[conor_mw 0]

Andy McCleod-16Just wow.

WOW wtf like seriously jchafjdfhjadshfkhdshadfrhfhvudfhvofrdlnhrhfaqed... as life tilt comsumes me

[20TN40 0]

Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee, easiest point ever to make! It's a test where the teacher allows you to have a cheat sheet with certain info (since sites do specify certain programs as illegal) on it if you like. Sooooooooo, you come to the test and you choose not to bring the sheet. It's your choice. It makes your test harder, but that's because you chose not to bring your cheat sheet. Since the cheat sheet is allowed, it's just another tool that you have to make your test a little smoother to take.As for you blocking your info, I don't see your point. If I were sitting there, I could record every pot you entered. I could count how many times you raised and save the HHs where you went to showdown. It's not like the programs see something that you can't already.I really think you're gonna be hugely in the minority here.

I gotta say that I agree with Gallo. The difference being that you are not going to take the time to write down every single move made by every single player at every single table you play on. You just won't have the time or patience to do that. You COULD but you won't because of the time factor. So instead of racing the Indy 500 with the standard motor, you (with the assistance of a program) just hooked up an engine off a 747 and took flight.

[StupidKid 0]

Andy McCleod-16Just wow.

Ya srsly. WTF/teach me/how?lol donkaments?

[try__an__hit 0]

Andy McCleod-16Just wow.

hes older then 16, would have been 16 when he started to dominate. Adelaide is a small town here.

[James D 0]

Young poker players + Internet connection + Access to poker forums = More drama queens than an Elton John concert.

[Mercury69 3]

Well, anyone defending "taking over" for someone during a tourney can go fuck themselves. It's cheating and deceptive. Same goes for the buying and selling of accounts. Same goes for someone coaching you during a tourney, via IM, in person or over the phone.It's cheating. Try doing it during a live tourney, like, by making a phonecall to DN to ask him what to do during a hand. Or calling over your buddy on the rail to ask his advice. Can't be done.Fucking cheaters.

[finztotheleft 0]

It is refreshing to see that most here agree that this is cheating......the first few posts on page one had me worried.Gallo..........I see your point. I did not use PT for my first 2 years online because I felt it was an unfair advantage. The arguement that won me over was ultimately that it only helps assemble information that was available to you anyhow, it does not tell you what to do, etc. I understand the arguement that it is info that we COULD have gathered, but that most of us are not going to put the time/effort into doing that. I think it is in the gray area of what is okay and what is not, but more on the okay side of the scale. Where do we draw the line on all of the ways we could improve our game ? What if we are both at the same skill level and play each other regularly..........then you get private tutoring from Steve7stud, but I do not. Now, you can wipe the floor with me......Is this fair ? Is reading poker books fair ? Being a member of a forum and analyzing hand histories ?Back in the day, Doyle had to figure out the premium hands by himself. He had to see pocket 2's lose enough money from utg to decide not to play them utg. I can read that in a book. He had to figure out who was bluffing by instinct. I can go to a website that shows me a series of faces and quizzes me on their truthfulness. So in the great gray area of what is an acceptable tool and what is not, some lines have to be drawn because there are tools available now that weren't around 50 years ago..What most poker sites find acceptable, and what I find acceptable, are tools that can help me maximize my game that everyone has access to and that help ME play better. Anyone can read a book. Anyone can get PokerTracker. Anyone can count how often you raise/call/fold and make notes. A tool shouldn't tell me what to do. It shouldn't be a bot that does it's own thing without me making a decision. And....everyone does NOT have access to a MTT specialist to "finish up" for them.

[Acid_Knight 2]

I gotta say that I agree with Gallo. The difference being that you are not going to take the time to write down every single move made by every single player at every single table you play on. You just won't have the time or patience to do that. You COULD but you won't because of the time factor. So instead of racing the Indy 500 with the standard motor, you (with the assistance of a program) just hooked up an engine off a 747 and took flight.

The 747 example is a bad one becuase it implies that you basically won't be able to lose because you'll have such a large advantage over other players. That's not the case. It's strictly more abundant and better catalogued information. It's available to everyone.

[BigLebowski 0]

Anyone happen to know where I can find where they are talking about Andy complaining Sorel took his money unfairly because Andy was on tilt...something about $5K HU sngs? Looked through 2p2 and p5's, but couldn't find anything..thx.Oh, and the people saying Andy's offense for playing underage is as bad as what Sorel is "accused" of, need to go take those same ethics classes I suggested for those defending what Sorel is "accused" of. Night and day.

[Elo and AG 0]

The 747 example is a bad one becuase it implies that you basically won't be able to lose because you'll have such a large advantage over other players. That's not the case. It's strictly more abundant and better catalogued information. It's available to everyone.

I'm pretty sure PokerTracker is not allowed on PokerStars ? Right ? Are people using it ? I would be more willing to use a tool called Donkietracker

[try__an__hit 0]

Anyone happen to know where I can find where they are talking about Andy complaining Sorel took his money unfairly because Andy was on tilt...something about $5K HU sngs? Looked through 2p2 and p5's, but couldn't find anything..thx.Oh, and the people saying Andy's offense for playing underage is as bad as what Sorel is "accused" of, need to go take those same ethics classes I suggested for those defending what Sorel is "accused" of. Night and day.

http://www.pocketfives.com/FA531AD8-1CA5-4...E02016F73C.aspxhttp://www.pocketfives.com/067F1A14-D78A-4...8A3DF12E25.aspxhttp://www.pocketfives.com/9D2517E8-428F-4...5EB2AA54CF.aspxThank me later

[Sheiky 0]

Imper1um is such a dick for revealing Mcloed is 16, is the bastard that heartless he wants us to all feel incredibly disheartened?

[20TN40 0]

He had to figure out who was bluffing by instinct. I can go to a website that shows me a series of faces and quizzes me on their truthfulness. So in the great gray area of what is an acceptable tool and what is not, some lines have to be drawn because there are tools available now that weren't around 50 years ago..What most poker sites find acceptable, and what I find acceptable, are tools that can help me maximize my game that everyone has access to and that help ME play better. Anyone can read a book. Anyone can get PokerTracker. Anyone can count how often you raise/call/fold and make notes. A tool shouldn't tell me what to do. It shouldn't be a bot that does it's own thing without me making a decision. And....everyone does NOT have access to a MTT specialist to "finish up" for them.

Finz, will you be my friend? You have such a calm intellectual way of replying. And where is the website that lets me guess the truthfulness of the faces?

[BigLebowski 0]

I'm pretty sure PokerTracker is not allowed on PokerStars ? Right ? Are people using it ? I would be more willing to use a tool called Donkietracker

no, it's legal...i was joking in that 180 last night elo about not knowing what it was...just too easy to play around with those guys. Donkeytracker is def ++EV though.

[BigLebowski 0]

http://www.pocketfives.com/FA531AD8-1CA5-4...E02016F73C.aspxhttp://www.pocketfives.com/067F1A14-D78A-4...8A3DF12E25.aspxhttp://www.pocketfives.com/9D2517E8-428F-4...5EB2AA54CF.aspxThank me later

heh..thx manULTIMATE BBFIDTS....read Sorel's side of this story...have to agree with Sorel if it's the truth.

[irishguy 14]

I think many posts on this topic whether intentional or not prove how many grey areas there are in regards to ethics/legality in online poker. I don't condone at all what Sorel is accussed of doing but unlike some I see very little difference in thinking this may be okay to take over for a friend if it were do to disconnect not in exchange for money. Whether intentional or not either way the deception to your opponents is still there. I am almost positive that if you were to search these forums you would find cases of people taking over in tournaments for others for various reasons. Why is this any more ethical if you weren't in the tournament in the first place? Is it not still deceptive? Correct me if I'm wrong but was this not just recently added to the TOC for some of the major sites? Again if you searched these forums you would likely find numerous occassions of people going deep in tourneys and getting input on hands from others. While I understand this is a harder area to police how is it any more ethical than what Sorel is accussed of doing? If six months from now data mining on fulltilt becomes against there toc will those that have done it in the past be open to questions of there ethics or only those who continue to do it in light of the changes to the toc? Knowing that there are people who have posted in this thread that are guilty of some of these things is kind of ironic to me. Again I don't agree with what Sorel is accussed of doing and if he did I'm glad sites like FullTilt are catching what they can but for people to hop on board and jump on him and his character when many of us are guilty of filling in some of these grey areas is odd. I'm not trying to call anybody out here as I think some people here (myself included) may have fit into some of these grey areas without intending to be unethical. I know I have let people take over tourneys for me because of things coming up whether disconnect, appointments etc. Never because they were better than me or for financial reasons but the decption was there. I have given and taken hand advice while hands were in progress. Never did I think I was screwing anyone over but things like helping friends learn how to playing razz etc. This in the end was deceptive and not fair to the oponents. Everytime an incident like this comes into light with a successful online player everyone is quick to jump on the moral bandwagon but I would suspect that most online players are guilty of some of the grey areas that I've admitted to.

[Fox31317 0]

wow that is just wack...so wat happens in this situation?

[Sheiky 0]

I think there's an obvious line here that Mizzi has passed and many other continue to do so.Everyone knows that the endgame part of a MTT is where all the money is won and lost, the only reason people like Sorel don't have ROIs of 500% is because there is a massive amount of luck involved in reaching the final table, when he gets there and each individual spot gains more money he has a massive edge. If he gets to takeover someones account when they're down to 27 players, that is incredibly unfair, unethical and is definitely cheating over a massive amount of money.In my view, having him in the same room as Vaughan and making the decisions for him is just as wrong and unethical but that is very hard to regulate.There is no gray area in the pokerstars ruling, Sorel and Vaughan were WELL aware that what they were doing was wrong.

[vbnautilus 48]

the most disgusting thing about all this is ini's blind loyalty to Imp, who 100% cheated by buying that account... I know all the details and how it went down, hopefully Sorel and Chris will tell the truththis issue has nothing to do with friendship, or how good of a person Imp is... it is black and white, and he is WRONG and needs to do whatever it takes to make good...no lies guys...

<3 Waco

[Naismith 0]

I hate talking about people I don't know, but the Chris dude was obviously a scum bag based on ripping off Zimmer, one of the sometimes-nicer dudes around here.As far as having people give input on hands is concerned, I don't believe any online site has a one player per hand rule, thus if you happen to have someone around that can offer advice, it's perfectly within the rules.

[Mercury69 3]

That's a good point in Waco's post...Is this about who is a true friend or not? It shouldn't be. Although I don't think a "true friend" would notify a site if something like this happened, I think the person who did report it definitely felt that an ethical boundary had been crossed and felt compelled to do something about it. It's actions like Sorel's that cause money to flow into the pokets of people who already have money because they can afford to do things like offer $$$ equity for an account at a potentially pucrative time. In the financial world, they call it "insider trading" and it's illegal. In politics, they call it "patronage" or "nepotism" or "lobbying", but the lines are greyer there...

[Acid_Knight 2]

I'm pretty sure PokerTracker is not allowed on PokerStars ? Right ? Are people using it ? I would be more willing to use a tool called Donkietracker

No, PT, PA HUD and the like are allowed everywhere.

[Jam-Fly 8]

WOW!Calling out another player and effectively screwing up his life/profession/job/money making abilities/respect is unbelievable. That is just about the most classless thing you can do. Mizzi must have been really pissed at what McLeod said to bring this up.. But I spose if McLeod knew Mizzi knew he was underage, then he probably wouldn't want to piss him off.But still, that is so weak. There is no doubt in my mind that Mizzi is guilty and ratting on another player like that is scum.

[irishguy 14]

WOW!Calling out another player and effectively screwing up his life/profession/job/money making abilities/respect is unbelievable. That is just about the most classless thing you can do. Mizzi must have been really pissed at what McLeod said to bring this up.. But I spose if McLeod knew Mizzi knew he was underage, then he probably wouldn't want to piss him off.But still, that is so weak. There is no doubt in my mind that Mizzi is guilty and ratting on another player like that is scum.

Perhaps you're missing the point that Mcloed's beef with Sorel was for Sorel beating him heads up while he was tilted. This had zero to do with any cheating, account buying or multi accounting but was put out there as some sort of attempt to jump on the tarnish him bandwagon. Maybe outing his age was uncalled for the whole issue never should've been brought up in the first place.