Masshole 0 Posted April 29, 2005 Share Posted April 29, 2005 Last night on UB, I entered the 9PM 100 dollar NL multi table. There were over 300 entrants and the top 40 got paid. Anyways, I go on a great run at one point building my chip count from 3K to over 100K. When the tourney is down to 10 people, the final table, I find myself in 3rd place overall with 102K. Let me explain the payouts for this tourney before I go on with the hand in question. 1st place was just under 8K, 2nd was around 5K, 3rd 3K, 4th, 2 something, and the high 1's for 5th, and so on. 10th place was just under 400. With that being said, the very first hand at the final table I find myself in the BB with AcKc. I believe the blinds were 2k/4k at this point. Everyone folds leaving it up to the SB and I. He goes all in for around 45K. As I said, I have AcKc and am in 3rd place at this point. What would you do and why? Link to post Share on other sites
daddypoker23 0 Posted April 29, 2005 Share Posted April 29, 2005 CALL!!! the money is in the top 5, that should not even be a question PLAY TO WIN!! peace out joel Link to post Share on other sites
mikedshelton 0 Posted April 29, 2005 Share Posted April 29, 2005 You're most likely looking @ an under pair or smaller A...If you think you can out-play the bottom 7, then maybe you wait for a better position...If you feel like gambling or have 'read' this player and think he is simply trying to buy the blinds... move inIt sounds like you missed and are wondering if other would have made the same play Link to post Share on other sites
Azzy666 0 Posted April 29, 2005 Share Posted April 29, 2005 Last night on UB, I entered the 9PM 100 dollar NL multi table. There were over 300 entrants and the top 40 got paid. Anyways, I go on a great run at one point building my chip count from 3K to over 100K. When the tourney is down to 10 people, the final table, I find myself in 3rd place overall with 102K. Let me explain the payouts for this tourney before I go on with the hand in question. 1st place was just under 8K, 2nd was around 5K, 3rd 3K, 4th, 2 something, and the high 1's for 5th, and so on. 10th place was just under 400. With that being said, the very first hand at the final table I find myself in the BB with AcKc. I believe the blinds were 2k/4k at this point. Everyone folds leaving it up to the SB and I. He goes all in for around 45K. As I said, I have AcKc and am in 3rd place at this point. What would you do and why?Do you have any info at all on the guy that went all-in? AKs is a drawing hand, but it's still very powerful. you're only a true dog to AA or KK, so as long as you don't put him on one of those hands you should probably consider calling.A fold here is dangerous because you could easily have him dominated if he did that with AQ or AJ... Link to post Share on other sites
ebbik 0 Posted April 29, 2005 Share Posted April 29, 2005 He's got more than 10BB, and if he's at the FT in a 109 then you're probably ahead (not insta-pushing in the SB against the BB with AA KK). You lose and you've still got almost 60k. Easy call. Link to post Share on other sites
Masshole 0 Posted April 29, 2005 Author Share Posted April 29, 2005 This player was always on another table so I never had any type of read on him. I forgot to mention that he was short stack at the table. And like I said, it was the first hand of the final table. Link to post Share on other sites
Whatever 1 Posted April 29, 2005 Share Posted April 29, 2005 I would be quite torn here. I wouldn't want to risk 1/2 my stack on a possible 50/50 situation. Then again you could have him dominated on a bad bluff try.Tough laydown but there's better spots since you're 3rd best stack.EDIT: I forgot to mention that he was short stack at the table.Oh, then I would call easily assuming he was trying grab my blind.Being the short stack on the blind is a different mindset altogether. If he has a little pair I wouldn't like it but would still be very much in it. Link to post Share on other sites
Pupsta 0 Posted April 29, 2005 Share Posted April 29, 2005 If you were to win this hand, would you move into the chiplead? If you lost, would you be shortstacked at the table? Link to post Share on other sites
shezzavague 0 Posted April 29, 2005 Share Posted April 29, 2005 Automatic call. If you are 3rd with 102 k you are still in decent shape with 57. For what it is worth you already have your blinds invested.I put him on a small pair or a small Ace.If you are shortstacked and have a monster you need to extract value, not win the blinds. Unless he is acting weak to beg for a call, but that's unlikely.You are more than 50-50 against the range of hands that he could have, and you are getting better than even money on pot odds with no implied to consider.So what happened? Link to post Share on other sites
jerr496 0 Posted April 29, 2005 Share Posted April 29, 2005 It is a very tough call, but I would respect the bet and lay it down. I was in a $30 tourney on UB a while back with 400 players and was at the final table and was in a similiar situation(chip stack and all) and laid down my QQ. I ended up getting 3rd so to me that was a key lay down. Link to post Share on other sites
fryer98 30 Posted April 29, 2005 Share Posted April 29, 2005 I would call. Cause that's the way I play. It is a very tough call, but I would respect the bet and lay it down. I was in a $30 tourney on UB a while back with 400 players and was at the final table and was in a similiar situation(chip stack and all) and laid down my QQ. I ended up getting 3rd so to me that was a key lay down.How do you know that you wouldn't have gotten 1st or 2nd if you called? Link to post Share on other sites
Masshole 0 Posted April 29, 2005 Author Share Posted April 29, 2005 I mainly like to call a raise just to see the flop and not give away my powerful hand. However, that strategy is out the window when someone moves all in. So while I was not thrilled with the thought of possibly being behind, I do play to win tournaments. So after 30 seconds or so of painstaking decision making, I called. He flips over JJ. While I was surprised at the strength of his hand, it might as well be a pair of ducks against my suited AK.As it turns out, I did not get any help and the short stack double up through me, causing me to become the short stack at the table. After a couple hours of sleep, and some opinions from the guys I play with and here, I think I made a mistake. Of course hindsight is 20/20, but I should have picked a better spot. One in which I were to move all in wth AcKc or get to see a flop with that hand.I went on to finish 9th and net over 700 bucks. But it coulda, shoulda, woulda..ya know??JUST FRUSTRATING...however, I am not disappointed in my decision on this hand. It was a race, and I lost it. I will win alot of hands with AK suited. Link to post Share on other sites
shezzavague 0 Posted April 29, 2005 Share Posted April 29, 2005 Unlucky.Of course his Jacks are slightly better than ducks in that he has in his hand two of the cards that would improve your hand, whereas deuces wouldn't. Link to post Share on other sites
jerr496 0 Posted April 29, 2005 Share Posted April 29, 2005 I would call. Cause that's the way I play.It is a very tough call, but I would respect the bet and lay it down. I was in a $30 tourney on UB a while back with 400 players and was at the final table and was in a similiar situation(chip stack and all) and laid down my QQ. I ended up getting 3rd so to me that was a key lay down.How do you know that you wouldn't have gotten 1st or 2nd if you called?That is a very good point - but with that chip stack and the blinds that small I prefer to play very tight until 5 get knocked out and make the real money after playing so long - then play very aggressive and play for 1st. That's just the way I play in that situation. Another thing that was tough for that guy is he no had information on that player. Link to post Share on other sites
Pupsta 0 Posted April 29, 2005 Share Posted April 29, 2005 I mainly like to call a raise just to see the flop and not give away my powerful hand. However, that strategy is out the window when someone moves all in. So while I was not thrilled with the thought of possibly being behind, I do play to win tournaments. So after 30 seconds or so of painstaking decision making, I called. He flips over JJ. While I was surprised at the strength of his hand, it might as well be a pair of ducks against my suited AK.As it turns out, I did not get any help and the short stack double up through me, causing me to become the short stack at the table. After a couple hours of sleep, and some opinions from the guys I play with and here, I think I made a mistake. Of course hindsight is 20/20, but I should have picked a better spot. One in which I were to move all in wth AcKc or get to see a flop with that hand.I went on to finish 9th and net over 700 bucks. But it coulda, shoulda, woulda..ya know??JUST FRUSTRATING...however, I am not disappointed in my decision on this hand. It was a race, and I lost it. I will win alot of hands with AK suited.even though it made you the short stack, i absolutely believe that it was the correct call, because a shortstack in that situation will easily make that move with AQ and below, so you were most likely either racing or dominating, and the chances of that are about even, so a call is automatic. Link to post Share on other sites
jerr496 0 Posted April 29, 2005 Share Posted April 29, 2005 JUST FRUSTRATING...however, I am not disappointed in my decision on this hand. It was a race, and I lost it. I will win alot of hands with AK suited.That's true. You gotta win coin flips to win tournaments. By the way - I was watching that final table last night for a bit. I didn't see that hand though. Tough beat. Link to post Share on other sites
shezzavague 0 Posted April 29, 2005 Share Posted April 29, 2005 He flips over JJ. While I was surprised at the strength of his hand, it might as well be a pair of ducks against my suited AK.Interestingly, assuming no club in either pair, you are a tiny favourite against ducks but a 54-46 dog to Jacks. Link to post Share on other sites
Masshole 0 Posted April 29, 2005 Author Share Posted April 29, 2005 Yeah, but did I play for over 5 hours and accumulate 100K in chips to be willing to lose 50% of them over a coin flip?? That is what I am struggling with in my decision. If I lay that hand down, wait til 4 or 5 are left and then get aggressive...i'll stop with my if if if's. Link to post Share on other sites
Pupsta 0 Posted April 29, 2005 Share Posted April 29, 2005 Yeah, but did I play for over 5 hours and accumulate 100K in chips to be willing to lose 50% of them over a coin flip?? That is what I am struggling with in my decision. If I lay that hand down, wait til 4 or 5 are left and then get aggressive...i'll stop with my if if if's.or you could lay that hand down, get completely cold decked, have no steal spots, have your few steals caught, and finish in 9th anyway. There's no way to tell what woulda shoulda coulda happened, there's just what did, and what did happen was you making a perfectly reasonable, correct call. Congrats on the 9th. Link to post Share on other sites
captaindew 0 Posted April 29, 2005 Share Posted April 29, 2005 I probably would have called with AK. Since you have no information it is a really difficult decision. There is a whole range of hands that you could be up against: If I'm in that situation, I look at it this way: I figure its about 70% that he has a pair, and in that situation it is a race. It does stink to race for about 45% of my chips at a final table, but sometimes you have to do it. The key is I figure that 25-30% of the time I am in very good shape with my AK against hands I dominate like AQ, AJ, or KQ. So it is worth the risk. You most often race, and then 25-30% of the time you are in a dominant position. It is worth the risk. Link to post Share on other sites
Footballguru 0 Posted April 29, 2005 Share Posted April 29, 2005 Easy call IMO, unless you think the table is very weak/passive and you will be able to run all over them and steal the blinds contiuously. Link to post Share on other sites
gregdon8 0 Posted April 29, 2005 Share Posted April 29, 2005 Great post.If you could see his cards before the flop what would you do? I feel that if you reply fold to that then you should have folded anyways. I only like the call here if you are knowingly gambling to try and WIN the tourney. If you are trying to play solidly and move up, fold and wait for a better spot.In regards to an earlier post which said his JJ might as well been 22, that is not exactly the case. A small part of the perecntage that makes AK a coinflip is the possibility of a straight. Considering two of the jacks needed were gone, his perecntage went up a bit.I know I am responding after seeing the results... but I would have folded.There isnt enough invested to have to call off half your stack. It is definteily a very tough hand to lay down but is it worth flipping a coin. You have done so well to accumulare all those chips to get to that point, do you really wanna just throw half of them into the pot hoping for a coinflip. It is very true that you could have him dominated, but too early for me.Hand reminds me of the hand when Scott Fischman won his first bracelet. He had JJ and Kent Washington had AK. Fishman folded the jacks face up then told "the crew", that he knew he had AK and he didnt want to risk all of those chips... even though he was the fav.Congrats to get to that point sounded like you played excellent poker. Link to post Share on other sites
Masshole 0 Posted April 29, 2005 Author Share Posted April 29, 2005 Thank you everyone for your insight. I appreciate all of your takes. Good luck to everyone. Link to post Share on other sites
G0lfa 0 Posted April 29, 2005 Share Posted April 29, 2005 Although AK suited is a tough hand to get away from, especially preflop, i dont think the call is as black and white as people have made it to be thus far. I think massholes point about risking half his stack he worked hard for may have some good reason behind it. I ask myself, what would a professional do in this spot.... and i think that most would call. If you win this coin flip (which you have to do to win tournaments) you will be a dominating prescense at the table and will be able to pick up many free blinds helping you go on to win Raymer style. Id say if the other dude had more than 50k in chips folding might be a better option, but there is some point where you just have to draw the line and hope the coin lands in your favor. Link to post Share on other sites
Masshole 0 Posted April 29, 2005 Author Share Posted April 29, 2005 Golfa, you know what it is, it's a coin flip...a toss up. I also find it rather unfortunate that the SB had to have JJ and of course I was sitting with a very powerful hand in the BB. I didn't read him as trying to steal my blind because who would risk 45K to win 4K along with the antes? Obviously I was hoping he had a weaker Ace or I would win the race. I would have been chip leader if I had won that race. To think that you start a tourney with 2500 chips and lose a 100K swing hand just flat out sucks. Wish I could have posted that I could a K on the river and took it down. But how much discussion and debate would that have created? Link to post Share on other sites
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