Something That Has Been On My Mind

[Ouch-8s 4]

I have wrestled with that, and this will be hypocritical- well, no, not really. I did alot of thinking about that when that boxing movie with Hilary Swank came out. She becomes a quad, life gets terrible, unbearable, really, and she asks her friend to end it for her. What I came up with is this: it would be wrong, but that would be something you would just have to face, as a man. As a man, you would have to pony up and do what needed to be done. At least, I would think that a man should take that burden on his shoulders, man up and such- but could I? I couldn't bear to see my friend in that sort of pain- but am I man enough? What if, God forbid, it was my unborn daughter? Could I do it? I don't know if I am man enough: I pray daily that I will never have to be, never have to face that sort of test. Just the thought brings fear to my heart.

You are a strange dude. I FYP - how is that different?

[Loismustdie 0]

You are a strange dude. I FYP - how is that different?

It isn't. It would still be wrong- I just don't see if there would be a way to say no if the person asked. As far as changing it to unborn, well, I know a guy who was born with a spine disorder, life can be miserable as ****, but you will never meet a sweeter guy. Never would have known that if we decided that his life just wasn't worth it. Now, if by surgery number 30 he had had enough, could barely walk, couldn't for it anymore.... and then, man to man, asked for help ending it? That would be heavy as hell.... how do you say no? How do you say yes? I do think there may be times when a man may have to do the wrong thing and just live with that burden. I mean, it would be between you and God- could you face God with an honest heart and say that you were just trying to do right by your friend? The more I think about this the more it bugs me. Think about this- once that clump of cells joins together there is really only one inevitable thing- it will die. The only question is, how? I am a weird dude how?

[jmkiser 0]

It isn't. It would still be wrong-

It looks like we'll have to agree to disagree. I am not trying to change how you recognize life. Maybe, in some way, you would find some bit of respect for the way I see it.I do think there is a large difference between the value of an embryo and a living human being. Between a random baby and a random 90 year old person? Sorry, I'm going with the baby. Between an embryo and a 90 year old person? 90 year old person. This might be morbid and we can discuss whether it's wrong or not, but I am just being honest.(obviously if any of these people weren't random and were my kin, then I would choose blood relation over anything)Maybe I'm phrasing it in way too harsh of a manner. Overall, practically everyone is equal to me. The last paragraph comes more to fruition when we talk about the hypothetical.What if... there is a situation where a split-second decision can only save one life and I'm faced with grabbing the baby or pushing the old lady to safety? I'm going to grab the baby. And I have nothing against someone who would grab the old lady... that's there decision. The only time I have an issue is with those who wouldn't do anything, but just save themselves.Back to childbirth, though, I have a lot of trouble. The two things that I am certain about are the end of the pregnancy and the beginning. Abortion at the end of a pregnancy is disgusting, wrong, and cruel to me. Abortion at the beginning doesn't affect me at all (morning after pills, 1st/2nd week abortions, etc). The middle... I don't know. And not all life is the same to me... if it was, we would never make the choice of "save the mother or the unborn child". Instead of saving the mother like we always do, we'd have to revert to flipping a coin to see who gets to live.I love life and I don't feel that conception is the start of it. And sorry, Lois, but trying to use the emotional catch-phrase of saying that "no matter if it is life or not, you are still ENDING life" isn't going to work on me. You use it as a word connotation to pull at emotions (whether you admit it or not). If it was a serious argument, then you would have to answer to every guy who masturbates due to the ENDING of life. A fetus at conception doesn't have life just as a sperm doesn't either. That's my opinion.

[Loismustdie 0]

It looks like we'll have to agree to disagree. I am not trying to change how you recognize life. Maybe, in some way, you would find some bit of respect for the way I see it.I do think there is a large difference between the value of an embryo and a living human being. Between a random baby and a random 90 year old person? Sorry, I'm going with the baby. Between an embryo and a 90 year old person? 90 year old person. This might be morbid and we can discuss whether it's wrong or not, but I am just being honest.(obviously if any of these people weren't random and were my kin, then I would choose blood relation over anything)Maybe I'm phrasing it in way too harsh of a manner. Overall, practically everyone is equal to me. The last paragraph comes more to fruition when we talk about the hypothetical.What if... there is a situation where a split-second decision can only save one life and I'm faced with grabbing the baby or pushing the old lady to safety? I'm going to grab the baby. And I have nothing against someone who would grab the old lady... that's there decision. The only time I have an issue is with those who wouldn't do anything, but just save themselves.Back to childbirth, though, I have a lot of trouble. The two things that I am certain about are the end of the pregnancy and the beginning. Abortion at the end of a pregnancy is disgusting, wrong, and cruel to me. Abortion at the beginning doesn't affect me at all (morning after pills, 1st/2nd week abortions, etc). The middle... I don't know. And not all life is the same to me... if it was, we would never make the choice of "save the mother or the unborn child". Instead of saving the mother like we always do, we'd have to revert to flipping a coin to see who gets to live.I love life and I don't feel that conception is the start of it. And sorry, Lois, but trying to use the emotional catch-phrase of saying that "no matter if it is life or not, you are still ENDING life" isn't going to work on me. You use it as a word connotation to pull at emotions (whether you admit it or not). If it was a serious argument, then you would have to answer to every guy who masturbates due to the ENDING of life. A fetus at conception doesn't have life just as a sperm doesn't either. That's my opinion.

I have tried really hard to not bring any emotion into it whatsoever. I have never been to an anti- abortion rally- never read any paraphanelia, don't care to. If any of what I said is recognizable as such, maybe it's not so much a catch phrase but the logical conclusion, whether we want to admit it or not. We paint the gray area because they are necessary, for every situation that we paint them for. It's how we mentally survive sometimes. We do disagree on this, but if you were honest with yourself- which is all I am really looking ofr- you would have to admit that your 1 week/2 week/morning after pill is completely arbitrary at this point in time. You feel this way because you want to, which is fine. I am not knocking anybody here, don't get me wrong. As far as masturbating, well, you don't have to go very far biblically to see Gods take on that, but I have pretty much managed to keep religion out of this till now. No reason to start.

[jmkiser 0]

We do disagree on this, but if you were honest with yourself- which is all I am really looking ofr- you would have to admit that your 1 week/2 week/morning after pill is completely arbitrary at this point in time. You feel this way because you want to, which is fine. I am not knocking anybody here, don't get me wrong. As far as masturbating, well, you don't have to go very far biblically to see Gods take on that, but I have pretty much managed to keep religion out of this till now. No reason to start.

It's less that I feel FOR it as much that I don't feel anything against it. I admit that the point of view doesn't have a logical basis, but that is just me being honest. And I know you're not knocking anybody... I didn't mean for my last post to sound offensive if you felt it did.

[Loismustdie 0]

It's less that I feel FOR it as much that I don't feel anything against it. I admit that the point of view doesn't have a logical basis, but that is just me being honest. And I know you're not knocking anybody... I didn't mean for my last post to sound offensive if you felt it did.

No, it wasn't offensive. I just didn't want you to think I was being my usual a hole self by trying to push the logical basis for point. It has really been my only intenet, to shed some honest light on this issue. This was fun. Now, I need to go argue that the flood really happened again. Geez. This gets exhausting.

[digitalmonkey 929]

Here is a question for anyone who feels like answering: I hate Condors. Truth is, I don't like birds all that much, but Condors in particular. What if I made it my lifes mission to destroy Condor eggs? I hunt them near and far, across the Galaxy, I am driven by my sheer hatred for that bird, and I single handedly take out Condors. I see and egg, I stomp, baby. Don't even think twice. How do you think people would react when they heard tale of my handiwork, and why?

You would be deliberately trying to destroy the condor species. Now if you wanted to destroy all the eggs that were going to develop into condors with Down Syndrome I'm sure very few would have a problem with that.

[digitalmonkey 929]

When is a loaf of bread really a loaf of bread? Is it a loaf of bread as soon as it's placed in the pan? Maybe when it goes in the oven?

[Loismustdie 0]

How did this thread reappear?

[digitalmonkey 929]

How did this thread reappear?

I responded to your weak condor analogy thus bumping the thread.So when is a loaf of bread actually a loaf of bread, IYO?

[Loismustdie 0]

I responded to your weak condor analogy thus bumping the thread.So when is a loaf of bread actually a loaf of bread, IYO?

No, a month ago this thread literally dissapeared. And, I see where you are going with that, and as soon as someone offers to open you up to harvest cake batter for 10,000 let me know.

[jmkiser 0]

Digitalmonkey makes perfectly valid points.yeah, we know that life isn't anything close to a loaf of bread. I want the question answered as to when life is life... oh wait, we can't. Also, on the condors, no one is going after fetuses for the purpose of attack and destroy missions. Intent clearly matters in this situation. No one would ever let a guy, who went around with the purpose of destroying humans by kicking pregnant women in the stomach, live.

[jmkiser 0]

But yes, I agree that it was a very very random bump.

[Loismustdie 0]

You would be deliberately trying to destroy the condor species. Now if you wanted to destroy all the eggs that were going to develop into condors with Down Syndrome I'm sure very few would have a problem with that.

Actually, I remember why I put this out there- people would go ****ing nuts, and those same people would be pro abortion. This is only a conversation because we have a large portion of society who value life very little- unless it is there own. In order to be o.k. with abortion you would also have to be o.k. with being drugged and having a kidney stolen. You would have to be o.k. with nobody having any choice and anybody could be used for spare parts at anytime.

[digitalmonkey 929]

Actually, I remember why I put this out there- people would go ****ing nuts, and those same people would be pro abortion. This is only a conversation because we have a large portion of society who value life very little- unless it is there own. In order to be o.k. with abortion you would also have to be o.k. with being drugged and having a kidney stolen. You would have to be o.k. with nobody having any choice and anybody could be used for spare parts at anytime.

Please clarify what abortion has to do with illegal organ harvesting.

[Loismustdie 0]

Please clarify what abortion has to do with illegal organ harvesting.

It's possibly taking a life without the permission of the living. My point is that if you don't believe a fetus is a life fine;that being said there has not been one person in this thread who has been sure of that or has any real reason to believe that except that they think so, so even they have to admit that they could possibly be taking a life- like you could POSSIBLY do if you stole a dudes kidney.

[digitalmonkey 929]

It's possibly taking a life without the permission of the living. My point is that if you don't believe a fetus is a life fine;that being said there has not been one person in this thread who has been sure of that or has any real reason to believe that except that they think so, so even they have to admit that they could possibly be taking a life- like you could POSSIBLY do if you stole a dudes kidney.

So by your reasoning any random worker at McDonald's is on the same level as an abortionist or an organ harvester. I mean, they are serving you a burger which, if it doesn't poison you, will most certainly contribute to heart disease. Can you see the flaw in your reasoning?It all comes back to when one believes that a life begins. This is the problem and it will never change as there will never be complete agreement.

[Loismustdie 0]

So by your reasoning any random worker at McDonald's is on the same level as an abortionist or an organ harvester. I mean, they are serving you a burger which, if it doesn't poison you, will most certainly contribute to heart disease. Can you see the flaw in your reasoning?It all comes back to when one believes that a life begins. This is the problem and it will never change as there will never be complete agreement.

I believe I have a 12 inch penis. I ether do or don't- there is an answer for everything. So, right back at ya about flaws in reasoning there buddy.

[digitalmonkey 929]

I believe I have a 12 inch penis. I ether do or don't- there is an answer for everything. So, right back at ya about flaws in reasoning there buddy.

An inch is easily measurable so your penis could easily be meaured and proven to be much shorter than 12 inches.If there is an answer for everything...when does life begin?

[Loismustdie 0]

An inch is easily measurable so your penis could easily be meaured and proven to be much shorter than 12 inches.If there is an answer for everything...when does life begin?

Conception. The point in which the wheels are set in motion. You will have different answer than I, but your reasoning won't be sound. It will have no backing whatsoever, whereas mine, well, we know that conception is when the train is set on the tracks and a baby is on the way, unless something happens to stop it. So, why WOULDN'T life begin then?

[digitalmonkey 929]

Conception. The point in which the wheels are set in motion. You will have different answer than I, but your reasoning won't be sound. It will have no backing whatsoever, whereas mine, well, we know that conception is when the train is set on the tracks and a baby is on the way, unless something happens to stop it. So, why WOULDN'T life begin then?

Wow, you know conception is when the train is set on the tracks. That's some very powerful evidence you have there.Conception does not necessarily mean a baby is on the way. Ectopic pregnancies and miscarriages are also a potential outcome.Have you ever attended a funeral for a miscarried fetus?

[jmkiser 0]

Conception. The point in which the wheels are set in motion. You will have different answer than I, but your reasoning won't be sound. It will have no backing whatsoever, whereas mine, well, we know that conception is when the train is set on the tracks and a baby is on the way, unless something happens to stop it. So, why WOULDN'T life begin then?

Your example of your penis proves why you're wrong about conception.To prove that your penis is or isn't 12 inches long, a ruler is used to measure length.The most common example we use in a hospital to tell if something is alive or dead is a heartbeat... it's something we can measure to determine if something is alive or dead.A 1 day old fetus does not have a heartbeat.So by your standards of is or isn't (your penis is or isn't 12 inches long and we can prove that it isn't by measuring ), life does NOT start at conception.

[Loismustdie 0]

Wow, you know conception is when the train is set on the tracks. That's some very powerful evidence you have there.Conception does not necessarily mean a baby is on the way. Ectopic pregnancies and miscarriages are also a potential outcome.Have you ever attended a funeral for a miscarried fetus?

O.k. last post apparently you didn't bother to read this thread. UNLESS SOMETHING HAPPENS, WHETHER NATURALLY OR BY YOU AND I, A BABY IS ON THE WAY. IT'S NOT A BIRD, OR A PLANE, OR A GOAT, OR A ****ING POSTAGE STAMP-- IT WILL BE A BABY, UNTIL IT'S LIFESPAN IS ENDED AND THEN AND ONLY THEN, WILL IT NO LONGER BE. THE MOST POWERFUL EVIDENCE I HAVE IS THE FACT THAT YOU MUST- MUST- MUST- ABSOLUTELY MUST DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. YOU CANNOT LEAVE IT UP TO CHANCE IF YOU DON'T WANT TO DEAL WITH IT. CHANCE ISN'T GOOD ENOUGH. Seriously, how hard is this? If I went on a damn road trip, got in the car, and said, "The road trip begins!!" we would all understand that if I stopped 2 miles down the road, the road trip, the very real road trip, had ended. That's it, I am done. Until you can show me evidence that the fetus will be anything else than a baby or life ended, you have got nothing to say. Give me a damn opinion, don't sit there and ask retarded questions like "Have you been to a funeral for an aborted fetus?" As of now, the best you have done is compare a fetus to damn loaf of bread. Last I looked, a loaf of bread isn't going to cost you 30,000 to bake.

[jmkiser 0]

I don't think anyone denies that a fetus becomes a baby. Is it that relevant? Is that good enough to say that ALL abortions should be completely and 100% illegal?I don't.I believe in the stem cell research that was being done. Of all the countries in the world that it should happen in, America definitely should be the first. The advances for the medical community are incredible. And we're talking about aborted fetuses vs. human lives. I'll take human lives please and I'll take America making the discoveries while we're at it.I have no problem with a morning after pill even if it means the destruction of something that was just conceived. I don't think you have enough evidence at all to say that when life starts is black and white. What do you measure it with? If we measure life to a fetus in the same way we measure life in someone that's already alive... well, then no, there is a whole bunch of time where the fetus is not alive.You also say that you "must must must absolutely must do something about it". About what? What are we to do? Why are we doing it? Do we not have the best stance possible on all the real evidence that we actually have? Are you saying "No matter what we should consider life at conception 'just in case'"? Because you know the flaw in that logic.The fact that we're ending something that is GOING to be a baby... I don't see how that is insanely wrong. There is plenty of time where it's not a baby. The arguments against abortion are stronger towards birth and much weaker towards conception. The arguments for abortion are stronger at conception and much weaker near birth. I would say THAT is what is black and white.

[solderz 0]

Actually, I remember why I put this out there- people would go ****ing nuts, and those same people would be pro abortion. This is only a conversation because we have a large portion of society who value life very little- unless it is there own. In order to be o.k. with abortion you would also have to be o.k. with being drugged and having a kidney stolen. You would have to be o.k. with nobody having any choice and anybody could be used for spare parts at anytime.

The above has to be the dumbest thing I have seen written for a long time. Do you really believe this?