Lebron James

[chgocubs99 0]

I do agree with Jada that you can't just throw Lebron on 1's and 4's and they are suddenly locked down. THAT is an exaggeration.

[keith crime 8]

I do agree with Jada that you can't just throw Lebron on 1's and 4's and they are suddenly locked down. THAT is an exaggeration.

he did some sick things todaysomeday Jada is going to realize he wasted a ton of time carping when he could have been enjoying a great and unique talent

[Jadaki 0]

And your already calling him better than Larry Bird... really? He could go out tomorrow drive to the basket get undercut shatter his leg and never play the same again. Stop making him the greatest player who ever lived 5 years into his career.

[BigDMcGee 3,355]

And your already calling him better than Larry Bird... really? He could go out tomorrow drive to the basket get undercut shatter his leg and never play the same again. Stop making him the greatest player who ever lived 5 years into his career.

[chgocubs99 0]

And your already calling him better than Larry Bird... really? He could go out tomorrow drive to the basket get undercut shatter his leg and never play the same again. Stop making him the greatest player who ever lived 5 years into his career.

I think it goes without saying that Lebron doesn't have the longetivity of other established Hall of Famers. He's played six NBA seasons. In those six NBA seasons he has had historic accomplishments which have never been seen before. It has been the most dominant six year stretch of any player in NBA history, and it's also his first six years in the league. Based on his accomplishments alone on the court so far, he is already a top 50 NBA player of all time. With three more great seasons, he will move into the top 10. There's no way to know how his body will respond when he reaches his 30's, but I would call it extremely likely you are currently watching one of the top 5 most dominant basketball players who has ever played the game.

[Jadaki 0]

It has been the most dominant six year stretch of any player in NBA history, and it's also his first six years in the league.

Based on what exactly?Titles... noneMVP's... noneScoring titles.... 1all star games ... 5all star MVP's... 2 (Should only be 1)all nba first team... 2all nba second team... 2If you really think that is the greatest 5 years any player in nba history has had I have to wonder how long you have watched basketball.

[keith crime 8]

2nd in defensive player of the year voting lock for this years mvp

[BigDMcGee 3,355]

2nd in defensive player of the year voting lock for this years mvp

yeah, the MVP and Championship catagories should be considered incomplete, for now.That said, I think it's hyperbole to say that this 6 year stretch that any player's ever had in the NBA. I don't think it's hyperbole to say that it's the best first 6 years of a players career ( in the post-Wilt era, at least). No one has been as good, as young as Lebron.

[chgocubs99 0]

yeah, the MVP and Championship catagories should be considered incomplete, for now.That said, I think it's hyperbole to say that this 6 year stretch that any player's ever had in the NBA. I don't think it's hyperbole to say that it's the best first 6 years of a players career ( in the post-Wilt era, at least). No one has been as good, as young as Lebron.

Yes I am saying the latter. And I agree with the former.

[chgocubs99 0]

I've done some research into my claim and can determine that the only person in the history of the game to have a claim at having a better first 6 seasons is Jordan. And it's close, with most numbers giving Jordan a slight edge. So let me amend my original statement...LeBron James is having one of the two greatest first six seasons of an NBA career in NBA history, depending on where you want to rank him and Jordan.

[chgocubs99 0]

Based on what exactly?Titles... noneMVP's... noneScoring titles.... 1all star games ... 5all star MVP's... 2 (Should only be 1)all nba first team... 2all nba second team... 2If you really think that is the greatest 5 years any player in nba history has had I have to wonder how long you have watched basketball.

I don't care about any of those things (LOL @ All star MVP's). Except for titles and scoring titles, those things are all subjective based on a handful or writers who may or may not have any clue what they are doing and may or may not be biased. I'm looking at overall performance involving every aspect of the game. Hard data. Stats. Facts.

[Jadaki 0]

I'm looking at overall performance involving every aspect of the game. Hard data. Stats. Facts.

And numbers can be inflated by putting up huge numbers for a shitty team or playing against piss poor competition which the east has been the majority of Lebron's career.I'm pretty sure Magic Johnson and Larry Bird also accomplished more their first 5 years than Lebron. Especially if you want to count the really important thing... rings. So has Wade, but we won't get into that.

[BigDMcGee 3,355]

And numbers can be inflated by putting up huge numbers for a shitty team or playing against piss poor competition which the east has been the majority of Lebron's career.I'm pretty sure Magic Johnson and Larry Bird also accomplished more their first 5 years than Lebron. Especially if you want to count the really important thing... rings. So has Wade, but we won't get into that.

yeah, because if lebron was drafted by the 79 celtics or lakers, I'm sure he would have accomplished nothing.

[Jadaki 0]

yeah, because if lebron was drafted by the 79 celtics or lakers, I'm sure he would have accomplished nothing.

He would accomplish plenty, but saying his first 5 years are greater than everyone even other than Jordan is silly. This is his 6th year, he now is a legit MVP candidate and one of the 5 best players in the league, but he sure wasn't anywhere close to that his first 4 years in the league.Whats funny about it is 10-15 years from now a new player who will come along doing similar things and because that's who people see on a daily basis they will say he is better than everyone else too. People easily forget just how great some of the players 20+ years ago were. Lebron is still just Dominque Wilkens with far better ball handling and passing skills.

[CaneBrain 95]

He would accomplish plenty, but saying his first 5 years are greater than everyone even other than Jordan is silly. This is his 6th year, he now is a legit MVP candidate and one of the 5 best players in the league, but he sure wasn't anywhere close to that his first 4 years in the league.Whats funny about it is 10-15 years from now a new player who will come along doing similar things and because that's who people see on a daily basis they will say he is better than everyone else too. People easily forget just how great some of the players 20+ years ago were. Lebron is still just Dominque Wilkens with far better ball handling and passing skills.

No. Everything else about your post is fine and there is a lot of truth to the over-emphasis on the here and now at the expense of the past.But the bolded is why people give you such a hard time. Such a gross underestimation of who and what Lebron is as a player undermines all your other arguments. On his best day, Nique still wished he was as good as Lebron James. The only thing Wilkens did as well as Lebron was dunk in traffic. Thats the list.

[Jadaki 0]

No. Everything else about your post is fine and there is a lot of truth to the over-emphasis on the here and now at the expense of the past.But the bolded is why people give you such a hard time. Such a gross underestimation of who and what Lebron is as a player undermines all your other arguments. On his best day, Nique still wished he was as good as Lebron James. The only thing Wilkens did as well as Lebron was dunk in traffic. Thats the list.

I think your underestimating a little about how good DW was... he is only top ten all time in points scored in the league. * NBA All-Rookie Team (1983) * 9x NBA All Star (1986-94) * 2x NBA Slam Dunk Contest Champion (1985, 1990) * 1x NBA Scoring Champ 1986 * 1x All-NBA First Team selection * 4x All-NBA Second Team selection * 2x All-NBA Third Team selection * 1x FIBA World Championship Gold Medal 1994 * 1x Greek Cup Champion 1996 * 1x Greek Cup MVP 1996 * 1x Euroleague Champion 1996 * 1x Euroleague Finals Most Valuable Player Award 199626,668 points 7,169His career points total ranks him ninth in career scoring, and he is one of just 14 players to total 25,000 points or more for a career.So calling Lebron a Dominique type player with much better passing and ball handling isn't even close to an exaggeration, it's actually quite the compliment.

[CaneBrain 95]

it would be a compliment for someone else. I know Nique could score.Lebron is better than him at shooting, passing, rebounding, ballhandling, defense (by a wide wide margin....Wilkens was an average defender at best) and, soon, winning.other than those things, I see the comparison.

[I_fold08 1]

nique would put lebron on his ass ainec... well maybe a little **** f*** lebron

[chgocubs99 0]

* 1x FIBA World Championship Gold Medal 1994 * 1x Greek Cup Champion 1996 * 1x Greek Cup MVP 1996 * 1x Euroleague Champion 1996 * 1x Euroleague Finals Most Valuable Player Award 1996

I am glad these accomplishments were listed. They really help validate the comparison.

[chgocubs99 0]

This is NOT adjusted for pace, which I'm pretty positive was significantly higher in the mid 80's. I'd throw in Hollinger's PER Wilkins first 6 seasons in the league:Season Age Tm Lg G GS MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS 1982-83 23 ATL NBA 82 82 32.9 7.3 14.9 .493 0.0 0.1 .182 2.8 4.1 .682 2.8 3.1 5.8 1.6 1.0 0.8 2.2 2.6 17.5 1983-84 24 ATL NBA 81 81 36.6 8.4 17.6 .479 0.0 0.1 .000 4.7 6.1 .770 3.1 4.0 7.2 1.6 1.4 1.1 2.7 2.4 21.6 1984-85 25 ATL NBA 81 81 37.3 10.5 23.3 .451 0.3 1.0 .309 6.0 7.4 .806 2.8 4.1 6.9 2.5 1.7 0.7 2.8 2.1 27.4 1985-86 26 ATL NBA 78 78 39.1 11.4 24.3 .468 0.2 0.9 .186 7.4 9.0 .818 3.3 4.6 7.9 2.6 1.8 0.6 3.2 2.2 30.3 1986-87 27 ATL NBA 79 79 37.6 10.5 22.6 .463 0.4 1.3 .292 7.7 9.4 .818 2.7 3.6 6.3 3.3 1.5 0.6 2.7 1.9 29.0 1987-88 28 ATL NBA 78 76 37.8 11.7 25.1 .464 0.5 1.7 .295 6.9 8.4 .826 2.7 3.7 6.4 2.9 1.3 0.6 2.8 2.1 30.7 2003-04 19 CLE NBA 79 79 39.5 7.9 18.9 .417 0.8 2.7 .290 4.4 5.8 .754 1.3 4.2 5.5 5.9 1.6 0.7 3.5 1.9 20.9 2004-05 20 CLE NBA 80 80 42.4 9.9 21.1 .472 1.4 3.9 .351 6.0 8.0 .750 1.4 6.0 7.4 7.2 2.2 0.7 3.3 1.8 27.2 2005-06 21 CLE NBA 79 79 42.5 11.1 23.1 .480 1.6 4.8 .335 7.6 10.3 .738 0.9 6.1 7.0 6.6 1.6 0.8 3.3 2.3 31.4 2006-07 22 CLE NBA 78 78 40.9 9.9 20.8 .476 1.3 4.0 .319 6.3 9.0 .698 1.1 5.7 6.7 6.0 1.6 0.7 3.2 2.2 27.3 2007-08 23 CLE NBA 75 74 40.4 10.6 21.9 .484 1.5 4.8 .315 7.3 10.3 .712 1.8 6.1 7.9 7.2 1.8 1.1 3.4 2.2 30.0 2008-09 24 CLE NBA 81 81 37.7 9.7 19.9 .489 1.6 4.7 .344 7.3 9.4 .780 1.3 6.3 7.6 7.2 1.7 1.1 3.0 1.7 28.4 This won't sort good so I'll summarize for you:James shoots a higher percentage from the field, shoots a higher percentage of threes, gets to the line more, rebounds better, passes better, steals the ball more, blocks more shots, turns the ball over about 1.5x more time a a game (while having 3x as many assists per game), and scores the same amount. About the only thing Nique does better is shoot free throws at a 5% better clip and....well, that's it.Oh yeah, Nique also won a slam dunk contest, made an all rookie team, and had a bunch of overseas accomplishments.As far as his numbers being inflated for the two reasons you mentioned:1) Playing on a shitty team didn't hurt Lebron this year since they led the East in wins and he is among the top PER for a single season in the history of the league. Earlier in the thread I could quote dozens of examples of you saying the player on the Cavs weren't all that bad, they're in the NBA, he has no titles with them, etc etc. Now suddenly the teams were shitty? Pretty hypocritical.2) I couldn't find his splits against the East and the West with a quick search. Would you like me to dig deeper? I don't think it will help your case much. Do you really think there is a huge difference in his numbers based on which conference his team played over his first six years?

[BigDMcGee 3,355]

I am glad these accomplishments were listed. They really help validate the comparison.

LMAO.

[BigDMcGee 3,355]

also, Lebron has about 60 pounds on Nique.

[Jadaki 0]

As far as his numbers being inflated for the two reasons you mentioned:1) Playing on a shitty team didn't hurt Lebron this year since they led the East in wins and he is among the top PER for a single season in the history of the league. Earlier in the thread I could quote dozens of examples of you saying the player on the Cavs weren't all that bad, they're in the NBA, he has no titles with them, etc etc. Now suddenly the teams were shitty? Pretty hypocritical.2) I couldn't find his splits against the East and the West with a quick search. Would you like me to dig deeper? I don't think it will help your case much. Do you really think there is a huge difference in his numbers based on which conference his team played over his first six years?

Were talking about his first 5 years in the league and saying they are the best of all time. Are you really telling me the east has been strong the last 5 years? Lets no forget this is year 6, and the east is still the far weaker conference. I don't think the other players on the Cavs are nearly as bad as everyone makes them out to be. They all play hard, all bring something to the table, and play good defense together thanks to their coach. To hear Lebron fans tell it none of these guys deserve to be in the CBA because that makes Lebron sound better than he is.First of all their shooting percentages aren't all that different, DW beat him in 2 of the 6 years. Both of their shooting percentages rise and fall with the team around them. Wilkens's teams early on were better than they were 5 years into his career which explains why his percentage would go down as he was forced to carry more of the load. Cleveland has slowly added better players over the years and now that James has all star level players on his team that help his percentage rise. James is a better 3 point shooter, big deal. I wouldn't trust him to hit a clutch 3 in any big game. He gets to the line more because no player is more protected in league history than Lebron. Anyone want to explain how such a great defender goes 5 games in a row this year without fouling? How can you possibly play aggressive strong defense without EVER fouling? Lets not forget Lebron isn't allowed to be hand checked, and Wilkens was. Imagine how many more FT's he would have shot if that was a foul back then.Look closer at the rebound numbers, lebron isn't exactly crushing him there either, and Wilkens actually played with people who could get 10+ a game. Leading a team with 7 rebs a game is sad.Go ahead and do the split search, make sure to include win/loss ratios against those western conference teams, even some of the eastern teams over the last 6 years give them fits.

[chgocubs99 0]

I don't have a ton of time again:1) The numbers of players that averaged over 9 rebounds a game in the last 15 years. If you go back into the 80's, you'll probably find more. 93-94 - 2098-99 - 1403-04 - 1506-07 - 1108-09- 9I'm not saying anything about "leading his team in rebounds". I'm comparing him to Nique.2) The hand checking rule is a fair point, but overall team athleticism and team defensive concepts are so much more advanced than they were in the 80's it negates it. You don't see many slow, unathletic white guys that can just shoot and do nothing else get much playing time anymore. Teams would much rather have someone that can't shoot quite as good, but is an athletic freak.3) Pick one. Lebron has no rings. People have argued that is because of the quality of players around him more than his game. You have argued that those players weren't that bad. A few posts ago you said his numbers could be inflated by playing on bad teams. Are you retracting that statement? Which is it? He's having his best season ever on a great team. Do you have a rebuttal for that?4) The east is not, by far, the weaker conference. They had the 3 of the 4 best teams this year, and every team but one was at least decent. The west had 5 atrocious teams, and 8 teams better than everyone but the top 3 in the East. It evens out.

[I_fold08 1]

I don't have a ton of time again:1) The numbers of players that averaged over 9 rebounds a game in the last 15 years. If you go back into the 80's, you'll probably find more. 93-94 - 2098-99 - 1403-04 - 1506-07 - 1108-09- 9I'm not saying anything about "leading his team in rebounds". I'm comparing him to Nique.2) The hand checking rule is a fair point, but overall team athleticism and team defensive concepts are so much more advanced than they were in the 80's it negates it. You don't see many slow, unathletic white guys that can just shoot and do nothing else get much playing time anymore. Teams would much rather have someone that can't shoot quite as good, but is an athletic freak.3) Pick one. Lebron has no rings. People have argued that is because of the quality of players around him more than his game. You have argued that those players weren't that bad. A few posts ago you said his numbers could be inflated by playing on bad teams. Are you retracting that statement? Which is it? He's having his best season ever on a great team. Do you have a rebuttal for that?4) The east is not, by far, the weaker conference. They had the 3 of the 4 best teams this year, and every team but one was at least decent. The west had 5 atrocious teams, and 8 teams better than everyone but the top 3 in the East. It evens out.

about the white guy defense thing, teams couldnt hide players in zones like they can now since the zone is new to the nba. i would probably take lebron simply because he is a freak of nature and has more at his disposal to be a freak of nature than there was when nique played. but lebron is a bitch when it matters and kobe and the lakers are just going to destroy lebron and the cavs