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Yeaaaaaaaaaaaa let's not get nuts here.I'm practically driving the Derrick Rose bandwagon, but there is about a .000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 percent chance he ever accomplishes anything near what Lebron has and will.Lebron will go down as, statistically, one of the top 5 players of all time. Rose will probably be a multiple time all star, maybe have a couple of ridiculous MVP seasons (no way to tell that), but will not be one of the best players ever. That i can say with certainty with even the smallest of sample sizes.Also, keith and Jadaki, it's getting old reminding people around here how little one game means...please just stop.What is going to be interesting is now that the original high school era players are reaching their 30's. This has literally never happened before, so we don't know how their legs will hold up. Some are already slowing down very quickly like J O Neal and McGrady, and Garnett's numbers are starting to slowly dip each year. Kobe doesn't seem affected much yet but we will see what the next three years means.

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You didn't finish college, what's he supposed to think?

I remember Jalen Rose talking about taking money once. Like, people become outraged and act like it's a bunch of greedy assholes ruining the integrity of the game, but even if you have a problem with

LBJ > MJ

Over the next 5 years I'd take Kobe, Wade and Paul ahead of Lebron. Over ten years Lebron moves up my list to #2 behind Paul though depending on how Rose does over the next 2 years I reserve the right to change my mind.The league hasn't had many really dominate point guards while the Bulls and Lakers were racking up title wins, now there are a ton of them and if you don't have someone to compete with the Pauls, Williams, Parkers, Roses, of the world you can and will get beat regularly because they can control the entire flow of the game. Jordan was a far better shooter coming into the league than Lebron was or is at the same age. Not to mention Jordan played at a time were defenders were allowed to be much more physical on the perimeter.
You're crazy
Uh last time I checked Lebron outscored Pierce 45-41Boston was at home and there is no doubt that if the Cavs had home court they would have beaten the celticsThe Celtics next best player to Pierce was a guy named Kevin Garnett - the Cavs was a guy named Delonte West who the Celtics basically cutLebron also out rebounded Pierce and had more assistsagain Lebron's support - NO ONE - Pierces KEVIN F-ING GARNETT!and the series came down to home court
You're even crazier. Did you watch that game? I'd argue that if Pierce only scored 30 in that game he would have outplayed Lebron. I think the jump-ball he stole off Lebron near the end really typified the game.
please because playing at home at the Garden is no advantage whatsoeverif the caltics had played the Hawks pn a neutral court they didn't get out of the first roundLebron really sucks - he only scored 45 in a game 7 on the road against a stacked team with absolutely zero help from his teammatesthe celtics then went on to totally shut down Kobe Bryant in the finals!
Please tell me this is a level
Yeaaaaaaaaaaaa let's not get nuts here.I'm practically driving the Derrick Rose bandwagon, but there is about a .000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 percent chance he ever accomplishes anything near what Lebron has and will.Lebron will go down as, statistically, one of the top 5 players of all time. Rose will probably be a multiple time all star, maybe have a couple of ridiculous MVP seasons (no way to tell that), but will not be one of the best players ever. That i can say with certainty with even the smallest of sample sizes.Also, keith and Jadaki, it's getting old reminding people around here how little one game means...please just stop.What is going to be interesting is now that the original high school era players are reaching their 30's. This has literally never happened before, so we don't know how their legs will hold up. Some are already slowing down very quickly like J O Neal and McGrady, and Garnett's numbers are starting to slowly dip each year. Kobe doesn't seem affected much yet but we will see what the next three years means.
You took the words right out of my mouth
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i acknowledge that pierce outplayed Lebron in that playoff game esp that jump ball, but i think it odd that Jadeki could criticize a guy who scored 45 points and kept his team in the game with almost no help from his teammates

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i acknowledge that pierce outplayed Lebron in that playoff game esp that jump ball, but i think it odd that Jadeki could criticize a guy who scored 45 points and kept his team in the game with almost no help from his teammates
Oh, fair enough then. Yes, LeBron scares the absolute crap out of me more than any other player in the league.
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i acknowledge that pierce outplayed Lebron in that playoff game esp that jump ball, but i think it odd that Jadeki could criticize a guy who scored 45 points and kept his team in the game with almost no help from his teammates
If I wasn't feeling lazy I'd go back and copy some of the many quotes you have about how much better he makes his teammates and how great his vision is. So he either elevates his teammates play, or he has no one to help him. Quit flip flopping it to fit whatever argument you want to have at the time.
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If I wasn't feeling lazy I'd go back and copy some of the many quotes you have about how much better he makes his teammates and how great his vision is. So he either elevates his teammates play, or he has no one to help him. Quit flip flopping it to fit whatever argument you want to have at the time.
go back and look - there are noneI said - he is a good teammate and doesn't criticize the awfulness around himI also said that he provided them with millions of wide open shots that they often missed until this yearYou can do everything in the world to make your teammates better but if your teammates can't hit the broadside of a barn - you're SOL
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go back and look - there are noneI said - he is a good teammate and doesn't criticize the awfulness around himI also said that he provided them with millions of wide open shots that they often missed until this yearYou can do everything in the world to make your teammates better but if your teammates can't hit the broadside of a barn - you're SOL
Your right, these guys made it to the NBA because they sucked. :club:
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Did anyone know that Lebron can run one mile in under 5 minutes?
That;s good and all but I'd think a lot of the players in the NBA could do this. I'm a big guy and I used to run it under 6, these guys are world class athletes. I'd go as far as saying I'd think the NBA could avg 3 players per team running under 5 min mile.
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have you seen oklahoma play?habe you ever seen eric snow take a jump shot?all players aren't created equal
But if Lebron makes them better, and they are good enough to be in the league...I'm just asking you to stick to one side of the argument, don't flip flop back and forth when it's convenient to make a future Knick look good.Also Eric Snow is in the process of retiring, has always been a defense first player, and has been to the Finals 2 more times than Lebron James has.
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But if Lebron makes them better, and they are good enough to be in the league...I'm just asking you to stick to one side of the argument, don't flip flop back and forth when it's convenient to make a future Knick look good.Also Eric Snow is in the process of retiring, has always been a defense first player, and has been to the Finals 2 more times than Lebron James has.
I will stick to the easy side of the argument then.Lebron is awesome. If you dont think so, you are crazy. If I was starting a team tomorrow and I had first pick of anyone in the league I would take Lebron. If you would not, you are crazy.Oh, and it is no coincidence that the additions of Mo Williams and Boobie Gibson have finally helped Lebron get deep in the postseason over and over. Yes, I will agree that his past teammates had significant skills....but they were the wrong skills. They have never surrounded him with enough shooters. (In fairness, sometimes they traded for shooters like Szcerbiak who got to Cleveland and forgot how to shoot for whatever reason.) Now, that they have they are 14-3 and I fully expect them to win 60 games.Will they beat the Celts? Eh, I think not this year but next year. And when they lose in the Conference Finals to Boston I will still think Lebron is awesome. Because I am not crazy.
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Will they beat the Celts? Eh, I think not this year but next year. And when they lose in the Conference Finals to Boston I will still think Lebron is awesome. Because I am not crazy.
First of all, they are going to win 79 games this year, not 60. And when they beat the Celts in the ECF and the Lakers in the finals, I will still tink LBJ is da man.
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Also Eric Snow is in the process of retiring, has always been a defense first player, and has been to the Finals 2 more times than Lebron James has.
Make it stop
I will stick to the easy side of the argument then.Lebron is awesome. If you dont think so, you are crazy. If I was starting a team tomorrow and I had first pick of anyone in the league I would take Lebron. If you would not, you are crazy.Oh, and it is no coincidence that the additions of Mo Williams and Boobie Gibson have finally helped Lebron get deep in the postseason over and over. Yes, I will agree that his past teammates had significant skills....but they were the wrong skills. They have never surrounded him with enough shooters. (In fairness, sometimes they traded for shooters like Szcerbiak who got to Cleveland and forgot how to shoot for whatever reason.) Now, that they have they are 14-3 and I fully expect them to win 60 games.Will they beat the Celts? Eh, I think not this year but next year. And when they lose in the Conference Finals to Boston I will still think Lebron is awesome. Because I am not crazy.
Thanks for joining us, common sense, it's been awhile
First of all, they are going to win 79 games this year, not 60.
[ ] Funny[ ] Clever
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I will stick to the easy side of the argument then.Lebron is awesome. If you dont think so, you are crazy.
I never said he sucked, the fact anyone gets so offended about someone not thinking Lebron is Jesus shows how out of touch with reality you guys are. He is one of the best players in the NBA, I just don't think he is the best (I'll stick with Kobe, so will a lot of other people), or the best by a large margin. If you do I have to question how much you really know about basketball. There are a LOT of great players in the league right now, just because he makes more highlight dunks on sportscenter doesn't make him the best player.
If I was starting a team tomorrow and I had first pick of anyone in the league I would take Lebron. If you would not, you are crazy.
I wouldn't, dominate 3's don't win championships... it's as simple as that. Again there are a lot of great players in the league, I don't think Lebron is the kind of guy that will carry teams to championships. This is my opinion, and the fact is he hasn't carried anyone to any titles... so you can't really say I'm wrong. Right now, he is still the newer version of Dominique Wilkens, his jumper is spotty at best, his arsenal consists of driving to the lane and trying to dunk or getting on the fast break. In a half court game he has to get extremely hot to stand up against the best defensive teams and he can't do that every night in a 7 game series. I'm sure I'll hear Mike Brown arguments about this.... save it. If Lebron could do half the shit you guys claim, the Celtics wouldn't be champs and he might not have gotten swept in the finals when he did get there.He isn't so far ahead of other top guys at his position that you have to take him over anyone else.
Oh, and it is no coincidence that the additions of Mo Williams and Boobie Gibson have finally helped Lebron get deep in the postseason over and over. Yes, I will agree that his past teammates had significant skills....but they were the wrong skills. They have never surrounded him with enough shooters. (In fairness, sometimes they traded for shooters like Szcerbiak who got to Cleveland and forgot how to shoot for whatever reason.) Now, that they have they are 14-3 and I fully expect them to win 60 games.Will they beat the Celts? Eh, I think not this year but next year. And when they lose in the Conference Finals to Boston I will still think Lebron is awesome. Because I am not crazy.
Hasn't Gibson been on that team 3 years now?Mo Williams looks like he his helping, but he just got there and there is the whole problem of Lebron not knowing wtf to do when someone else brings the ball up the court or he isn't the one running the offense in a half court set. Maybe Wally forgot how to shoot because Lebron couldn't get him the ball in places he was comfortable... or we should just go back to blaming Mike Brown cause Lebron is infallible right? Gotta be the coach. Maybe the Cavs should have hired D'antoni. Maybe that's another reason Lebron wants to play in NY, because he knows his game doesn't translate well to half court grind it out basketball.
Make it stop
Eric Snow has been to the finals on 3 separate teams. You don't play on teams good enough to get to the finals 3 times by sucking ass. The Cavs got plenty of use out of him. And you guys keep talking about Lebron needing shooters... did he turn into Shaq and start dominating the lane?
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That;s good and all but I'd think a lot of the players in the NBA could do this. I'm a big guy and I used to run it under 6, these guys are world class athletes. I'd go as far as saying I'd think the NBA could avg 3 players per team running under 5 min mile.
Yeah, but Lebron does it backwards.
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I will stick to the easy side of the argument then.Lebron is awesome. If you dont think so, you are crazy. If I was starting a team tomorrow and I had first pick of anyone in the league I would take Lebron. If you would not, you are crazy.Oh, and it is no coincidence that the additions of Mo Williams and Boobie Gibson have finally helped Lebron get deep in the postseason over and over. Yes, I will agree that his past teammates had significant skills....but they were the wrong skills. They have never surrounded him with enough shooters. (In fairness, sometimes they traded for shooters like Szcerbiak who got to Cleveland and forgot how to shoot for whatever reason.) Now, that they have they are 14-3 and I fully expect them to win 60 games.Will they beat the Celts? Eh, I think not this year but next year. And when they lose in the Conference Finals to Boston I will still think Lebron is awesome. Because I am not crazy.
I'm just nitpicking now. But I'd argue that Big Z has been one of the best centers Lebron could ask for given his ability to shoot the ball. They should run the pick and pop a lot. Szcerbiak is the victim of one good season of shooting which somehow overhyped as this great player. Since his all-star season he has been terrible and still can't defend a chair.
Eric Snow has been to the finals on 3 separate teams. You don't play on teams good enough to get to the finals 3 times by sucking ass. The Cavs got plenty of use out of him. And you guys keep talking about Lebron needing shooters... did he turn into Shaq and start dominating the lane?
Yes, while we're at it, let's put Brian Scalabrine on the Cavs. That ought to help.
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I never said he sucked, the fact anyone gets so offended about someone not thinking Lebron is Jesus shows how out of touch with reality you guys are. He is one of the best players in the NBA, I just don't think he is the best (I'll stick with Kobe, so will a lot of other people), or the best by a large margin. If you do I have to question how much you really know about basketball. There are a LOT of great players in the league right now, just because he makes more highlight dunks on sportscenter doesn't make him the best player. I wouldn't, dominate 3's don't win championships... it's as simple as that. Again there are a lot of great players in the league, I don't think Lebron is the kind of guy that will carry teams to championships. This is my opinion, and the fact is he hasn't carried anyone to any titles... so you can't really say I'm wrong. Right now, he is still the newer version of Dominique Wilkens, his jumper is spotty at best, his arsenal consists of driving to the lane and trying to dunk or getting on the fast break. In a half court game he has to get extremely hot to stand up against the best defensive teams and he can't do that every night in a 7 game series. I'm sure I'll hear Mike Brown arguments about this.... save it. If Lebron could do half the shit you guys claim, the Celtics wouldn't be champs and he might not have gotten swept in the finals when he did get there.He isn't so far ahead of other top guys at his position that you have to take him over anyone else. Hasn't Gibson been on that team 3 years now?Mo Williams looks like he his helping, but he just got there and there is the whole problem of Lebron not knowing wtf to do when someone else brings the ball up the court or he isn't the one running the offense in a half court set. Maybe Wally forgot how to shoot because Lebron couldn't get him the ball in places he was comfortable... or we should just go back to blaming Mike Brown cause Lebron is infallible right? Gotta be the coach. Maybe the Cavs should have hired D'antoni. Maybe that's another reason Lebron wants to play in NY, because he knows his game doesn't translate well to half court grind it out basketball. Eric Snow has been to the finals on 3 separate teams. You don't play on teams good enough to get to the finals 3 times by sucking ass. The Cavs got plenty of use out of him. And you guys keep talking about Lebron needing shooters... did he turn into Shaq and start dominating the lane?
Yes Gibson has been around for a few years and the Cavs have gotten to a finals and game 7 of the ECF in that span. And they certainly gave the Celts more of a challenge than the Lakers. Mo Williams looks like he is helping? They are 14-3 and it has not been against a creampuff schedule. They will certainly be challenging the Celts again for the East. Honestly, most of your criticisms are the same ones that dogged Michael Jordan for years. And they are ridiculous. Nobody thinks lebron is great because of his dunks. it is because he keeps putting up 27, 7 and 7 every year while facing constant double teams. It is because his teams have been very successful overall. It is true I cant disprove the claim he will never win a championship since he has not won one yet. but that is some mediocre logic. The converse is also true....saying he wont ever win a championship (considering what he has done with some mediocre teammates and considering his still young age) is just a stab in the dark.Dominate swing players do win championships. Michael Jordan ring a bell? If the team is constructed properly you can win with anyone being the focal point. And please dont try to tell me there is some fundamental difference between SG and SF. Lebron and Jordan have been used in almost identical ways. The offense is funneled through them and they handle the bulk of the scoring as well as the bulk of the playmaking. You dont need to be a post player to merit being complemented by shooters. If you command a double team constantly, then you need to be surrounded by shooters. Lebron fits that description. (Not to mention your earlier post that said that PGs are integral parts of NBA champs is absurd. Big men are the key to titles historically (Russell, Wilt, Jabaar, Duncan, Shaq, Mikan, etc. The only PGs that were true leaders of their team to win titles were Isiah and Magic and they both had a LOT of help.)I think you should start questioning how much you know about basketball when everyone else thinks you are insane. Its not that Lebron is way better than everyone else. It is that he is clearly marginally better than everyone else except for Kobe (the ONLY person other than Lebron who can legitimately be called the best player in the league. CP3? puh-leeze.) And he is much younger than Kobe. So when you say you would not start a team from scratch with Lebron, you look silly. I mean nobody likes Dwayne Wade more than me the giant Heat fan who goes to 20 games per year. But even I cant make a legit argument for Wade over Lebron. Lebron does all the same things Wade does and he is bigger, stronger, and younger (and, in my mind, a more natural outside shooter). The fact that Wade has a title is not relevant. Titles are just as much about timing and the total sum of a team's parts. Wade had the luxury of playing his third year with a still solid Shaq, a resurgent cast of veterans, and Big Game James Posey. And they were lucky to get the choke artist Mavs in the finals. That the Cavs have yet to win a title should not be held against Lebron. It certainly was not due to his shortcomings. I mean earlier in this thread you were picking on Lebron's loss to the Celts last year. Have we really come to the point where a guy scores 45 points on the road in a game 7 against the eventual NBA champ and that is considered a failure because they lost? That was a failure by the Cavs (or more accurately a success by the Celtics) not a failure by Lebron James.
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not a failure by Lebron James.
This is what I'm talking about. When will you guys admit Lebron is not a perfect player. If anything is wrong, its always blamed on the coach or his teammates, you guys act like he is perfect and he is far from it. This is what I don't like about Lebron, its the stupid rabid fanaticism that surrounds a guy that hasn't won fucking thing. So he draws double teams at the top of the key, learn to dish off and go post up, develop a mid range game, do something besides get on the fast break. It's no wonder he wants to play for D'antoni, because he won't have to worry about half court basketball that way. So Lebron is a hero for putting up 45 and losing, but if you actually preform and win it's worthless... I'm confused. You know who else put ups lots of nice stats and never won anything, Dominique Wilkens.The fact you guys go out of your way to diminish guys like Magic and Jordan to make Lebron look good is what is so retarded. Magic could play 5 positions, and did it as a rookie to carry a team with it's star player hurt to a championship, you want an impressive deciding game look at what Magic did as a rookie in the finals. But your right, that team carried him... Lebron is clearly better than Magic :club: Allen Iverson took a completely overmatched Philly team to the finals and pulled out a win by himself. Lebron couldn't even do that against a team that wasn't as good as the one Iverson faced.Lebron's NBA finals record 0-4, I would think the most dominate player in the league would be able to pull out 1 win... in a 4 game series, just 1? Oh, lets blame his team and coach though, the same ones that helped get him there in the first place.Wade's game is more polished than Lebrons is right now. Wade can finish a play in a lot more ways than Lebron can, I would think a heat fan who gets to see him live 20 times a year would realize that. As I'm typing this I just watched highlights of Wade getting a rebound, splitting a double team and dunking on Okafor. He also was moving without the ball, coming off screens and working with his teammates to get open and create easy shots. Hitting shots in the lane and the everywhere else on the court. 41 points and 8 boards, man that guy would suck to start a team with.
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This is what I'm talking about. When will you guys admit Lebron is not a perfect player. If anything is wrong, its always blamed on the coach or his teammates, you guys act like he is perfect and he is far from it. This is what I don't like about Lebron, its the stupid rabid fanaticism that surrounds a guy that hasn't won fucking thing. So he draws double teams at the top of the key, learn to dish off and go post up, develop a mid range game, do something besides get on the fast break. It's no wonder he wants to play for D'antoni, because he won't have to worry about half court basketball that way. So Lebron is a hero for putting up 45 and losing, but if you actually preform and win it's worthless... I'm confused. You know who else put ups lots of nice stats and never won anything, Dominique Wilkens.The fact you guys go out of your way to diminish guys like Magic and Jordan to make Lebron look good is what is so retarded. Magic could play 5 positions, and did it as a rookie to carry a team with it's star player hurt to a championship, you want an impressive deciding game look at what Magic did as a rookie in the finals. But your right, that team carried him... Lebron is clearly better than Magic :club: Allen Iverson took a completely overmatched Philly team to the finals and pulled out a win by himself. Lebron couldn't even do that against a team that wasn't as good as the one Iverson faced.Lebron's NBA finals record 0-4, I would think the most dominate player in the league would be able to pull out 1 win... in a 4 game series, just 1? Oh, lets blame his team and coach though, the same ones that helped get him there in the first place.Wade's game is more polished than Lebrons is right now. Wade can finish a play in a lot more ways than Lebron can, I would think a heat fan who gets to see him live 20 times a year would realize that. As I'm typing this I just watched highlights of Wade getting a rebound, splitting a double team and dunking on Okafor. He also was moving without the ball, coming off screens and working with his teammates to get open and create easy shots. Hitting shots in the lane and the everywhere else on the court. 41 points and 8 boards, man that guy would suck to start a team with.
Lebron's problem is that he has never had another player on his team that could create his own shot - this year he does - look at the resultsYou clearly haven't watched him this year - his mid range game is better and he's playing lock down DShaq got swept in the finals - that's about as inane an argument as i've ever heard - that Cavs team was horrid except for Lebron and that game he played against the pistons to get them there is one of the greatest performances everplus that Spurs team was awesome and if there is any championship team capable of taking a night off it was that laker squadLook at the box score for that game 7 vs boston and tell me who else contributedbtw - Dominique was a fine player and that Hawks team was good - it's not his fault that he played at the same time as Celtics and Lakers squads that were stacked with hall of famers at every positionIt's not a one man game - or did you forget that MJ was like 29 when he won his first title - and his playoff results were nowhere near as good as Lebrons his first six seasonsThe guy finally has someone to take some of the load off and they are 17-3 and leading the league in margin of victoryNo one ever said he was better than MJ or Magic but to say that he hasn't shown the potential to have a career like theirs is insane You really need to seek therapy for your angerBTW - last time I checked the entire league wasn't preparing cap space for Wade and he's a free agent the same year - is the whole NBA insane?
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things
I was just reading the Cowboys thread. It is INCREDIBLE to see you defend Tony Romo to the death for basically the same things you kill Lebron for.....except Lebron is performing incredibly well in pressure situation (and sometimes winning sometimes losing) while Romo craps the bed every time.And teammates do matter. Lebron will take blame for defeats where it is due. I am not killing a guy for putting up 45 on the road in the playoffs. I bet most people on this forum would struggle to name a significant teammate of Dominique. Nobody is diminishing Jordan or Magic. But to ignore that they both had lots of help (and lots lots more than Lebron has ever had) is perfectly fair.
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