Tuan Le is being accused of cheating....

[Drum Infected 0]

HarryDemetriou

"There were numerous plays at the final which when considered in conjunction with the various cross percentage ownerships of some of the players could lead you to very questionable conclusions and a feeling of wanting to puke."

To late Demetriou!

[extempore 1]

However, if paul is right and there was a collusion

That's such a perfect summary of why I don't frequent places like this.Why would you write something like that? Isn't it interesting enough to discuss the things that people actually say without inventing your own fascinating twists? It gets so old having to add twenty pages of qualifications for those who are unwilling to "play it as it lies" and that wearisome task is a huge part of why it's tremendously unappealing to participate here (along with most every other poker forum.)If you're still scratching your head, please see if you can find the words that justify "if paul is right and there was a collusion", and then after you fail at that see if you can find the part where he goes well out of his way to overtly and specifically NOT say there was any collusion.

[extempore 1]

PS - Still waiting for that response Paul.

I have no idea what you're talking about but I'll get right on it; I won't, CAN'T risk losing such a valuable correspondent.

[extempore 1]

Softplaying happens *constantly* in tournaments. There's nothing that can ever be done about it, it's just the way it is. It's not chip dumping and it's not collusion, it's just not mixing it up with someone you have a vested intrest in doing well if you can avoid it.

Good god man, what do you think collusion IS? Secret hand signals a la "Tilt"? In tournament poker, players intentionally not busting one another is essentially the entirety of the collusion problem!It's not collusion, it's just not mixing it up with one of your partners. Wow, that takes balls of steel. "It's not murder, it's just issuing pieces of lead at high velocity that happened to tear through someone's flesh. If they died well that's just something that happens. What can you do."

It's impossible to ever prove and impossible to ever stop.

Both those statements may (or may not) be true but if you're equating that with "then it's A-OK" then... um I guess I have another fine illustration of why I don't post here.

[HoosierAlum 0]

Paul, You should post here more often. I think many posters would appreciate the things you have to say. I know I have enjoyed reading the posts you made tonight.

[NormanHaupt 0]

lmao I dunno whats funnier.The fact that a poker celebirty is on here owning people, or the kissups who want his autograph.Welcome to the FCP forums. We're not all idiots. Just most of the people above.

[Absolute 0]

Or it's a good chance to make a stupid call and give him some more chips. Even if Tuan has an A2 offsuit, Habib is an underdog.

A2o is a god-awful example because he's easily getting the right price to call against that hand, but since most people aren't generous enough to play with their cards face-up, hasan can only make a decision based on the range of hands tuan could hold. Let me guess, you think tuan's hand range is "everything that's a favorite over KJs, and nothing else." If that's the case then you're right, that'd be a pretty stupid call.Exercise to the reader what tuan's actual hand range was likely to be, and how KJs fares against it.

You are spot on Paul.Also consider the conditions of what was certainly one of the most LAG final tables in WPT history, no way he is laying down KJs in that spot when trying to win with all those chips.Certainly shady.Nice work Paul.Someone needs to be the one to say these things, I'm glad you have the balls to bring it up for discussion.Also people, notice Paul stayed clear of making a definite claim and even defended their credibility as people as far as he knows.I see nothing wrong with his argument whatsoever.Also Vade, this man is NOT someone you want to get in to semantics with.

[Absolute 0]

Softplaying happens *constantly* in tournaments. There's nothing that can ever be done about it, it's just the way it is. It's not chip dumping and it's not collusion, it's just not mixing it up with someone you have a vested intrest in doing well if you can avoid it.

Good god man, what do you think collusion IS? Secret hand signals a la "Tilt"? In tournament poker, players intentionally not busting one another is essentially the entirety of the collusion problem!It's not collusion, it's just not mixing it up with one of your partners. Wow, that takes balls of steel. "It's not murder, it's just issuing pieces of lead at high velocity that happened to tear through someone's flesh. If they died well that's just something that happens. What can you do."

It's impossible to ever prove and impossible to ever stop.

Both those statements may (or may not) be true but if you're equating that with "then it's A-OK" then... um I guess I have another fine illustration of why I don't post here.

lol @ thatplease do post more often pauland if you read FCP, avoid the General Forum at all costs

[norcalonica 0]

i agree with phillips that the final table seemed shady as hell...this stuff will kill poker

[shezzavague 0]

Softplaying happens *constantly* in tournaments. There's nothing that can ever be done about it, it's just the way it is. It's not chip dumping and it's not collusion, it's just not mixing it up with someone you have a vested intrest in doing well if you can avoid it.

Good god man, what do you think collusion IS? Secret hand signals a la "Tilt"? In tournament poker, players intentionally not busting one another is essentially the entirety of the collusion problem!It's not collusion, it's just not mixing it up with one of your partners. Wow, that takes balls of steel. "It's not murder, it's just issuing pieces of lead at high velocity that happened to tear through someone's flesh. If they died well that's just something that happens. What can you do."

It's impossible to ever prove and impossible to ever stop.

Both those statements may (or may not) be true but if you're equating that with "then it's A-OK" then... um I guess I have another fine illustration of why I don't post here.

Being impossible to prove does not equate to being impossible to stop.Look at other sports - esp horse racing, tennis and golf - where there is a code of practice which means players (jockeys, owners) face HUGE fines and bans if they 'tank' (ie don't play their hardest). You can't 'prove' this unless you were the guy involved, but a panel of peers and experts meets and if in their opinion you tanked, you are copping the punishment. This acts as a huge deterrent, although of course I am not naive enough to tell you that it still never happens. Just less.If poker wants to be treated as a proper sport, then it needs a governing body which would, as part of its broadcast contracts, insist upon access to footage for disciplinary purposes.

[Mr Monkey 0]

i agree with phillips that the final table seemed shady as hell...this stuff will kill poker

kill poker LOL. this happens all the time. its been going on forever and will continue to go on forever. everyone knows it goes on and alot of people do it. i hope people arent surprised this happens it is just a fact of how poker is. if i had 50% of someone i wouldnt be trying to knock him out. the problem is alot of these players sell a % of themselves and /buy/stake other players so its inevitable that this stuff does happen. theirs no way to stop.

[Razorbet 0]

Softplaying happens *constantly* in tournaments. There's nothing that can ever be done about it, it's just the way it is. It's not chip dumping and it's not collusion, it's just not mixing it up with someone you have a vested intrest in doing well if you can avoid it.

Good god man, what do you think collusion IS? Secret hand signals a la "Tilt"? In tournament poker, players intentionally not busting one another is essentially the entirety of the collusion problem!It's not collusion, it's just not mixing it up with one of your partners. Wow, that takes balls of steel. "It's not murder, it's just issuing pieces of lead at high velocity that happened to tear through someone's flesh. If they died well that's just something that happens. What can you do."

It's impossible to ever prove and impossible to ever stop.

Both those statements may (or may not) be true but if you're equating that with "then it's A-OK" then... um I guess I have another fine illustration of why I don't post here.

I have a perfect illustration that shows you do post here. It is probably better that you "dont post here". Six posts and you have come off as an ass already. Even Smash waited till his 10th post.Razor

[Smasharoo 0]

Both those statements may (or may not) be true but if you're equating that with "then it's A-OK" then... um I guess I have another fine illustration of why I don't post here.You may or may not realize that your ability to read people playing Holdem apparently vastly surpasses your ability to read my posts.Perhaps give responding to what I actually wrote a shot as opposed to responding to you're afraid you think it might maybe mean.To think, I was just about to challange you to a $100,000 Scrabble match, too.Your loss.By the way it's clearly impossible to prove and mposible to stop, it's really not open to debate is it?Oh, and colluding requires active participation by two players or more. Softplaying doesn't.For the love of God, one would think you'd understand the diffrence between elemntary distinctions in a game you spend so much time on./shrug.

[jeff_536 3]

Us amateurs are always wondering what the 'poker stars' on TV are really like...do they live up to their 'tv images' or are they just regular folks doing a job.Josh Arieh, i think, has shown that his cliche image from teh WSOP was not the real Josh. He's taken the time to post here occasionally with interesting and well-thought out posts. He seems like a nice guy.Then there's Paul Phillips who joins OUR forum, DANIEL'S forum and immediately sets about insulting not only us, and by extension our (and his) host, but all poker forums in general.Hey Paul...instead of being such an arrogant asshole when you post here, why don't you try to educate instead of denigrate (wow..rhymed..cool).There's nothing wrong with an exchange of ideas among reasonably intelligent (which in itself is debatable) people.You have such anger, man.Relax.

[jerr496 0]

Woah, he reads FCP. And he's calling out Vade. :shock:Edit - Paul, since I know you read this, please answer my question: Why would Habib endanger his stranglehold on the table by chip dumping to Tuan? Wouldn't he make MORE money if he won the tournament than if Tuan did?

This is just a thought - He might have been trying to give Tuan more chips to hopefully get 2nd. If Tuan got 2nd and Habib got 1st then they would both make a lot of money if they were splitting 50/50. I dont know - I could be way off.

[whippedspoon 0]

Paul Phillips really needs to grow up. The dude has a new kid but he's still surfing around the net picking fights with people he doesn't know. You'd think he would have more interesting things to do (and more important) than being the saviour of poker. The truth is that Paul is taking a rumour he heard (or a fact..who cares) and taking actual events and trying to put them together to make a conspiricy. If Paul Phillips is worried about people attacking his credibility, then maybe he shouldn't do it to others. I'm sure Tuan and Hasan don't even like the suggestion of cheating, just like Paul doesn't like people calling him a liar. And he's not perfect either, he's admitted to swapping as well. So maybe he should stop first if others should too.I think it's time Paul stops throwing stones if he doesn't want people to throw back.

[Smasharoo 0]

DP

[Smasharoo 0]

Paul Phillips really needs to grow up. The dude has a new kid but he's still surfing around the net picking fights with people he doesn't know. You'd think he would have more interesting things to do (and more important) than being the saviour of poker. NOYou overly sensative prigs need to get over this ludicrous Puritan Hal Monitor syndrome.Paul's not picking fights, he just making his points advasarialy. Which is what you do when you disagree with someone.Surely you guys can all go hold hands and sing Cumbya on your own time and wander the strets admonshing grown adults not to use words you find objectionable, right?

[ChkDeezNuts 0]

Maxfield is a real class act.......I would have first, looked at both of them funny......second, told them to their face that they are cheating scum....."SOFTPLAYING" is cheating......PERIOD. (Double team anyone?....How would you like to play against a two man team?) One guy helping along the other.....makes me want to puke.If you look at Paul P's examples...it is rather obvious that HH was trying to will a "heads up" dream scenario which would have filled his pockets....How bout an investigation?Now...think of it like this.....THERE IS MONEY INVOLVED......Card Counters get banned from casino's....this is obviously worst, but since money is involved and the integrity of the tournament is called into question, I believe it is a criminal matter. We are talking hundreds of thousands of dollars being given to the wrong people since the game was not (alledgedly) on the level.and finally....you all do know that Cheating is a crime punishable by JAIL time? Was this cheating? I think so.

[GhostfaceKillah 0]

I hate boston

[kdogg 0]

If Hasan was colluding, why would he fold the KJ faceup? I guess it doesn't really matter since the hand may be on TV anyway (I think ~25 hands make the cut), but if I knew I was cheating, I definitely wouldn't show the hand.

[rawl316 0]

Smash, I've been reading the forums for a while, but never posted. I must say, I think I am in the minority that actually likes your style. But sorry, the purpose of a poker tournament is to knock people out when you get the opportunity. When someone is softplaying another person, the other person knows there is a reason for it (owning a stake) and that becomes collusion. How do you think the table would feel if the person announced that he was going to just check down because he has a stake in him?

[ChkDeezNuts 0]

If Hasan was colluding, why would he fold the KJ faceup? I guess it doesn't really matter since the hand may be on TV anyway (I think ~25 hands make the cut), but if I knew I was cheating, I definitely wouldn't show the hand.

Maybe that is why he folded it face up......to show "Hey...you see..I'll show you my horrible fold."It looks less shady.

[Hobotron 0]

First of all let's establish one thing: If Hasan Habib did fold in order to give somebody part of his stack, this is clearly cheating (because it gives one player an unfair advantage. In a word, it is collusion. It would be cheating no matter what the size of the recipients stack, although arguably it does not make as much sense to give a short stack chips.). Notice that I'm not saying that he did this, because I don't have enough information to make such a judgement (and neither does anybody else, judging from what has been posted here). However, if Hasan does indeed have a stake in Tuan Le, than anything he does at the same table is going to be scrutinized to the nth degree, and rightly so. If they were indeed colluding, than this not only hurts the image of the players, but it compromises that of the tournament. Would the public watch a poker tournament in which they knew players were cheating in? Maybe, but I sure wouldn't. Furthermore, would you want to play in a tournament in which two players that staked each other could end up at the same table?? I wouldn't. Even if they were not consiously helping each other, or just one of the players, they would have a vested interest in not seeing either one get knocked out. At the very least, they would probably avoid playing in pots together (or if they were actively helping each other, they may do what HH and TL were accused of). I don't know how often two players that end up at the same table in a tournament have some sort of financial agreement between each other (I'm talking about staking in this case, usually just one player staking another one, not final table "deals"), but it could easily lead to cheating, or at the very least altering the play of these two players in some way. If I was a tournament director, I would NOT allow anybody to play in a tournament that had a stake, or was staked by any other player in the tournament. This may not be practical in reality, because, from what I've heard, staking is a quite common practice. That being said, it compromises the integrity of tournament poker (as do deals, but that is another thing altogether). It's one thing to be staked by a businessmen that is not playing in the tournament (and I have no problem with this), but when your financial backer could hypothetically be playing at the same table with the person being backed, this just creates all sorts of problems. If poker tournament directors care about creating a tournament atmospere in which you don't have to worry about problems created by players staking each other, they would tell players that they cannot enter the tournament if they have a financial interest with any of the other players in the tournament. Sure, there is probably a few bad apples that would lie about this, but so it goes with most things... Please let me know what you think of my proposal. I find it disgraceful that so many people insult other people who's opinions they do not agree with. Just because you disagree with somebody on one issue does not automatically make this person an idiot, or anything else for that matter. I will not judge anybody based on one opinion or action, and I would appreciate the same luxery from everybody else. Criticize my opinion if you like, but please do not criticize me for having one.

[jeff_536 3]

Paul's not picking fights, he just making his points advasarialy. Which is what you do when you disagree with someone.

Some people make points without being adversarial...I can disagree with you or something you said without hating you.I can respect your point of view, perhaps even intellectually understand why you might think that and still disagree.And among many people, it's done without a condescending, arrogant attitude, laced with sarcasm and scorn.I await your witty rejoinder.