A8s In Bb Could I Have Done Anything

[ezmoney87 0]

Just curious if i played this hand poorly or if i really couldnt do anything sorry tried to use flopriverturn.com but wasnt working Full Tilt Poker Game #4200929970: $1 Rebuy (31327191), Table 3 - 60/120 - No Limit Hold'em - 23:49:35 ET - 2007/11/16 Seat 1: Hero (4,130) Seat 2: pill pauper (5,125) Seat 3: Ophidion (4,410) Seat 4: shanenem (3,795) Seat 5: Moore_Man (10,950) Seat 6: jb-high (1,770), is sitting out Seat 7: Xman6674 (9,575), is sitting out Seat 8: prodigio20 (6,386) Seat 9: Goodspring (6,289) Goodspring posts the small blind of 60 Hero posts the big blind of 120 The button is in seat #8 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to Hero [Ah 8h] pill pauper folds Ophidion has 15 seconds left to act Ophidion is sitting out Ophidion has timed out Ophidion folds shanenem folds Moore_Man folds jb-high folds Xman6674 folds prodigio20 folds Goodspring calls 60 Ophidion has returned Hero checks *** FLOP *** [9h 5h Ac] Goodspring checks Hero bets 120 Goodspring raises to 360 Hero raises to 4,010, and is all in Goodspring calls 3,650 Hero shows [Ah 8h] Goodspring shows [Ad 5d] *** TURN *** [9h 5h Ac] [Tc] *** RIVER *** [9h 5h Ac Tc] [As] Hero shows three of a kind, Aces Goodspring shows a full house, Aces full of Fives Goodspring wins the pot (8,260) with a full house, Aces full of Fives Hero stands up *** SUMMARY *** Total pot 8,260 | Rake 0 Board: [9h 5h Ac Tc As] Seat 1: Hero (big blind) showed [Ah 8h] and lost with three of a kind, Aces Seat 2: pill pauper didn't bet (folded) Seat 3: Ophidion didn't bet (folded) Seat 4: shanenem didn't bet (folded) Seat 5: Moore_Man didn't bet (folded) Seat 6: jb-high didn't bet (folded) Seat 7: Xman6674 didn't bet (folded) Seat 8: prodigio20 (button) didn't bet (folded) Seat 9: Goodspring (small blind) showed [Ad 5d] and won (8,260) with a full house, Aces full of Fives

[donk4life 34]

seriously?

[ezmoney87 0]

seriously?

look I'm just learning just trying to get a better idea of what to do no need to be a jerk

[Ricer98 0]

Make a normal sized 3 bet on the flop, I don't like taking the action from 360 to over 4000. Raise to probably 1000-1200 and call when he shoves. You have a ton of outs and blind vs blind I don't see how you don't get all your chips in given the chance. The problem is your raise to 10x his bet cuts down the number of hands he can call with.

[Cappy37 0]

Make a normal sized 3 bet on the flop, I don't like taking the action from 360 to over 4000. Raise to probably 1000-1200 and call when he shoves. You have a ton of outs and blind vs blind I don't see how you don't get all your chips in given the chance. The problem is your raise to 10x his bet cuts down the number of hands he can call with.

Perfect analysis. Definite cold deck, but as for the play on the flop, Ricer is right, you are making almost all hands you are way ahead of fold with the all-in push. You can justify your play given the outs you have, because you are close to a coin flip or better with anything short of a set (even aces up with the weak 2nd pair gives you plenty of chances to counterfeit him). But alas, the hands you are killing (like K9, 67, JJ, etc..) aren't going to call such a massive overbet. So while *you* want to get your money in with your monster hand/monster draw, you need worse hands to come along for the ride, and your overbet prevents that from happening.Think of it this way: if you flopped a set of aces, would you shove all in if your opponent puts out a continuation bet? Of course not, so why are you doing that here? Your hand is nearly as strong.

[ezmoney87 0]

Alright cool thanks for the input guys. I just wasnt sure if getting it allin was wrong there. I thought it was ok to get ot allin. You guys just gave me a better way of doing it. thank you

[Sick Boy 0]

lol! Dude that was nuts. Very very frisky, how long you been playing for?

[simo_8ball 0]

lol! Dude that was nuts.

Why do you think it was nuts?

[Sick Boy 0]

Why do you think it was nuts?

Why do I think its nuts? Well, my opinion is probably far less sophisticated then yours as you've probably been playing MUCH longer than me and thus have a better understanding of the game but, in my personel and inexpierienced opinion...He has the ace and the flush draw right?So why SHOULD HE NOT push all in to the re-raise? First of all, his ace is not the strongest with only 8 kicker. 2nd of all, yes he was on a big draw WITH an ace, but why go crazy about it? Why not just call the re-raise and see what the turn has to bring? Say the turn was a heart, now the villian is sitting on two pair. No reads on him yet? What if he's a bad player? He does a feeler bet to see if Hero has hit the flush, HERO JUST CALLS with his flush making the Villian think Hero may be sitting on top pair or MAY have the flush and is slow playing. Say the River card is a blank and Villian makes another bet. Now the Hero is in business and he's got alot of action. Say the Hero even RAISES the turn if its a heart. He induces a fold out of an already healthy pot.BUT...as the cards fell, I dont think he could've gotten away from this even if he didn't go all-in. Just a bad beat? I dont know, as I said, I'm still learning. But hero had the ace and the better drawing hand and in my opinion, it was poorly played.

[simo_8ball 0]

Why do I think its nuts? Well, my opinion is probably far less sophisticated then yours as you've probably been playing MUCH longer than me and thus have a better understanding of the game but, in my personel and inexpierienced opinion...He has the ace and the flush draw right?So why SHOULD HE NOT push all in to the re-raise? First of all, his ace is not the strongest with only 8 kicker. 2nd of all, yes he was on a big draw WITH an ace, but why go crazy about it? Why not just call the re-raise and see what the turn has to bring? Say the turn was a heart, now the villian is sitting on two pair. No reads on him yet? What if he's a bad player? He does a feeler bet to see if Hero has hit the flush, HERO JUST CALLS with his flush making the Villian think Hero may be sitting on top pair or MAY have the flush and is slow playing. Say the River card is a blank and Villian makes another bet. Now the Hero is in business and he's got alot of action. Say the Hero even RAISES the turn if its a heart. He induces a fold out of an already healthy pot.BUT...as the cards fell, I dont think he could've gotten away from this even if he didn't go all-in. Just a bad beat? I dont know, as I said, I'm still learning. But hero had the ace and the better drawing hand and in my opinion, it was poorly played.

Ok, I was asking to see what your thought process was like.(This got long quickly, but I think it's important to know the full thought processes you should go through in poker decision making. Hope it helps you in some way.)The way to assess a poker hand in general is to look at several factors. Before you even think about your own hand (and indeed the strength of your hand) you should be looking at what hands your opponent is likely to have. This is not to say put your opponent on one specific hand, just a very vague concept of what hands he could hold and what hands he is unlikely to hold. If he limps in, could he be trapping with a big hand? How likely is that? If he raises on the button how wide is his range? Pocket pairs and A9 or better? Could he raise 45 suited there? Just have those thoughts running through your mind. As the hand progresses you can narrow the range further and further, and sometimes, occasionally you might be left with just one and you can call out his exact two cards.Once you have an idea of that, then you assess your position. Are you acting before or after your opponent after the flop? If you have to act first you give him information before he has to act. By contrast, if you act after your opponent you get the chance to see whether he bets the flop or checks it. You have an advantage by playing in position because of this.When you've considered those factors you finally look at your hand and make your decision from there, when you already have an idea of what your opponent(s) may have, and what your position is. Too many people see a hand like KQ, 99 or AJ and immediately think it's a great hand. KQ can be a great hand if your opponent has KJ, but it is a terrible hand if your opponent has AK. Likewise KK is a monster hand, but it is as bad as 22 if you are against AA. Only contemplate the strength of your hand after you have determined your position and your opponent's range.Finally, you should try to read yourself. This is a difficult thing to do, and it takes a lot of practice. You need to put yourself on the other side of the table and try to work out how the other players see you. At the micro limits they mostly won't be paying attention to you, but in the middle of a hand they will have a vague idea of what you have or what you are representing. It's important to have at least some idea of what they are putting you on.(Throughout this whole process you should be aware of the varying stack sizes of the other players and how that will affect their decisions)So onto the hand. We look down at A8 suited. Suppose for now you were looking at a raise from a tight player first to act (under the gun). The two things you know about the situation (tight player, early position) should lead you to expect him to have a strong hand in general, say a range of all pairs 99 or better and AQ or better. Now look at the fact that you would be out of position (you would act first) for the rest of the hand. You compare his range of hands to your hand, and you see that you are significantly behind every hand he could hold. All factors point to A8 being a bad hand in a bad situation, so you would fold. A nice, easy decision.Now change the situation to the one in this thread.In this case, our opponent called from the small blind when it was folded to him. This indicates that he probably doesn't have a big hand because he would usually raise, and he probably doesn't have a terrible hand because he would fold. You really can't get too much information from that action. He really could have any two cards. You can make some vague assumptions though, which you can refine later in the hand.You have position for the rest of the hand. He has to act before you every time.Your hand is A8. He is unlikely to have a hand A9+ or a pair 77+ because he would probably raise. You very likely have the best hand, and you also have position. I think this should be a raise as a result. Don't let him catch a free flop with a worse hand. We decide instead to check (this play is not without its own merits, because if we flop an ace it is unlikely our opponent will think we have hit, so we may get paid off hansomely by a relatively weak hand.)The flop comes down Ac 9h 5h, giving us top pair and the nut flush draw.Again, we have to put our opponent on a range of hands. We have all but ruled out A9+ and pairs like 99, so the only hands realistically beating us at this point are 95, 55 and A5. Our opponent checks, indicating weakness. Our hand is extremely strong at this point. We could check behind and hope our opponent either bluffs at the turn or hits a card that will give us some action, or we could try to build a pot now. Because it is hard for our opponent to read us for an ace, betting out is a good play. Our opponent could call with a wide range of hands we are a huge favourite over (any 9, any 5, a weak ace, a flush draw, a straight draw, maybe even king high). If we start building a pot early we can win a big pot on a later street.We bet out 120, which is 1/2 the pot size, and our opponent checkraises us to 360.What is our opponents range? He could have an ace. That is what he is representing, after all. We have said that the big aces are unlikely, but A2-A7 are definite possibilities. How do we fare against a weaker ace here?(this is done using PokerStove, a free equity calculator that every serious poker player should download and use)

Board: Ac 9h 5hDead:  	equity 	win 	tie 		  pots won 	pots tied	Hand 0: 	22.187%	  11.92% 	10.26% 			  5430 		 4674.00   { A7s-A2s, A7o-A2o }Hand 1: 	77.813%	  67.55% 	10.26% 			 30762 		 4674.00   { Ah8h }

We are a heavy favourite.He could have a flush draw with a hand like JhTh, and he would be drawing nearly dead (he would need to hit runner runner to win).He could have middle or bottom pair (he is 12%)Or, he could be bluffing with nothing where he is nearly dead.What is most likely, and what should we do? The low ace fits very well, and we should reraise him now. We don't want to call and have another heart come because he might get scared off. If he has a lower flush draw we should reraise because we are a huge favourite and we want to get all our money in the middle before a blank turn slows him down. The flush draw fits his betting pattern fairly well too. I think those are the two most likely candidates for his hand.One last thing to consider: if he has A5 or 95 we are still 51% (a slim favourite).So, we have narrowed our opponents range and we see that we are still a good favourite. We shouldn't be scared to get our money in.Flat calling means that the pot is $960 on the turn, and we would still have about $3700 left. It is going to be difficult to get all of that in if he has a flush draw or a weak ace. Because we know we are a good favourite we want the money in early before he gets scared off on the turn.Having decided that reraising now is the best choice against our opponent's range of hands, Ricer and Cappy have explained very well why it is best not to push. Because you are such a huge favourite (and he is drawing dead with some of his hands), you don't want to scare him away. You want to give him the greatest chance to put a lot of money in when his pot odds are poor.This might seem a lot to take in and a lot to think about for just 3 decisions, but it is a basic process that becomes second nature over time. The more you play the easier it is to read people and to work out hand ranges for them.Simo.

[throwemaway 0]

Wow great step by step analysis Simo..It basically spells out the decision making process which becomes innate in experienced players after playing so many hands, but does a great jobBTW, I'd 3 bet this to about 1200 on the flop

[Sick Boy 0]

Thanks man I love learning new things about poker and I sure as hell didnt know all of that! Took me like thirty reads to get the thing but I broke it down piece by piece and summarised it using pen and paper and it finally made sense! Woohoo! Thank you, thank you, thank you!

[BeaverStyle 1]

::analysis::

[Rasputin 0]

Seriously great analysis on that hand. I honestly just got back to playing poker after a one year break and was surprised at how easy sites like "PokerStars" has gotten . It used to be one of the toughest places to make money at but since my return ( about 2 months ago) I have made almost as much cash in 2 months as in a full year of playing before that. I see a lot of new players that make the same mistakes as the original poster , they just don't work the hand backwards,don't calculate pot odds and you know..the basic stuff. The best advise I can give the OP is to buy a book, Harrington on Hold'em is great and not too complicated . Best of luck!