Trade Talk

[TMoneyBags 0]

rumors are that they moved Cabrera in order to build their pitching which they will then trade for likely Tejada. Maybe M Cabrera.

[lvpro 0]

rumors are that they moved Cabrera in order to build their pitching which they will then trade for likely Tejada. Maybe M Cabrera.

ahhhh, that would make sense then.I hope that rumor is wrong, then.

[mcpickl 0]

I don't get this trade at all. Garland is a total middle of the road starter, and Cabrera had overall a very solid year at the plate. I guess maybe they're trying to sell high on Cabrera... but Garland is average. I think this was a bad trade for the Angels, which is fine with me as a Mariners fan.

There has been talk since 2004 in Boston that there was an off the field issue that was so serious with Cabrera that the Red Sox had no interest in keeping him after helping win the World Series. Apparently all the media that folllow the team knows exactly what it is, but will not discuss it on the air/in print. Whatever it is, they are not shocked that he has been moved three times in 4 years.

[MDXS 0]

I don't get this trade at all. Garland is a total middle of the road starter, and Cabrera had overall a very solid year at the plate. I guess maybe they're trying to sell high on Cabrera... but Garland is average. I think this was a bad trade for the Angels, which is fine with me as a Mariners fan.

I disagree. I'm not a Garland fan at all, but the Angels definitely came out ahead. Garland's a solid 2/3 starter who has given 200 innings the last 6 years. Orlando Cabrera is a 33-year old shortstop, who had his second best offensive year this year with a 95 OPS+ and didn't even slug .400. Despite the gold glove, he's not spectacular at short. I agree with Moneybags that this probably means another trade is coming (like for the other, better Cabrera). So the bottom line is that by clearing room by selling high and adding 200 above average innings, the Angels are setting themselves up to go for the kill next year.(Just to be clear, Cabrera did have a very good year this year...I'm just skeptical that he'll be able to repeat it.)

[lvpro 0]

There has been talk since 2004 in Boston that there was an off the field issue that was so serious with Cabrera that the Red Sox had no interest in keeping him after helping win the World Series. Apparently all the media that folllow the team knows exactly what it is, but will not discuss it on the air/in print. Whatever it is, they are not shocked that he has been moved three times in 4 years.

That makes some sense.

I disagree. I'm not a Garland fan at all, but the Angels definitely came out ahead. Garland's a solid 2/3 starter who has given 200 innings the last 6 years. Orlando Cabrera is a 33-year old shortstop, who had his second best offensive year this year with a 95 OPS+ and didn't even slug .400. Despite the gold glove, he's not spectacular at short. I agree with Moneybags that this probably means another trade is coming (like for the other, better Cabrera). So the bottom line is that by clearing room by selling high and adding 200 above average innings, the Angels are setting themselves up to go for the kill next year.(Just to be clear, Cabrera did have a very good year this year...I'm just skeptical that he'll be able to repeat it.)

I wouldn't call Garland a 2/3... borderline 3, closer to a 4. He's a slight above-average back-of-the-rotation guy. He's only posted an ERA under 4 twice in his career, and he's given 200 innings the last 4 years, not 6, unless Baseball Prospectus is wrong. I don't think Garland is a bad player by any stretch (I just had to sit through a season of watching Jeff Weaver, Miguel Batista, Horacio Ramirez, and Ryan Feierabend, so I've seen baaaaaad), it just seems like the Angels could have gotten more. Of course, this all is moot if the Angels make another move to fill that hole, or if Cabrera really has such bad off the field issues. Purely from an aesthetic standpoint, though, I don't think it makes sense to trade a starting shortstop with very solid defense and a decent bat for a slightly above-average back-of-the-rotation guy.I also agree 100% that it was a sell high move, and I wouldn't expect Cabrera to come even close offensively again.

[MDXS 0]

That makes some sense.I wouldn't call Garland a 2/3... borderline 3, closer to a 4. He's a slight above-average back-of-the-rotation guy. He's only posted an ERA under 4 twice in his career, and he's given 200 innings the last 4 years, not 6, unless Baseball Prospectus is wrong. I don't think Garland is a bad player by any stretch (I just had to sit through a season of watching Jeff Weaver, Miguel Batista, Horacio Ramirez, and Ryan Feierabend, so I've seen baaaaaad), it just seems like the Angels could have gotten more. Of course, this all is moot if the Angels make another move to fill that hole, or if Cabrera really has such bad off the field issues. Purely from an aesthetic standpoint, though, I don't think it makes sense to trade a starting shortstop with very solid defense and a decent bat for a slightly above-average back-of-the-rotation guy.I also agree 100% that it was a sell high move, and I wouldn't expect Cabrera to come even close offensively again.

I was counting 192.2 and 191.2 as 200-inning seasons...I think that's close enough where the point is valid. He's definitely better than a 4th starter. I don't like to use wins as a stat often, but Garland recently ('05-'06) had back to back 18-win seasons. 4th starters don't do that. Let's take a closer look though:AL #1 SP < = 3.61AL #2 SP 3.62 - 4.06AL #3 SP 4.07 - 4.57AL #4 SP 4.58 - 5.78AL #5 SP >= 5.79Those are ERAs by rotation slot for the AL in 2005. Here's Jon Garland for the last three years:3.50 - #14.51 - #34.23 - #3So he's had a #1-type season, and 2 #3-type seasons in the last 3 years. These numbers undersell him slightly because in the last three seasons, U.S. Cellular has slightly favored hitters.Combining the above data (ERA, park factors, peer performance), we get:ERA+128105112100 is an average ERA+. The average starting pitcher is less than 100. To put these numbers back into the context of 2005 (this data is for both leagues):#1 slot - 118 ERA+#2 slot - 104 ERA+#3 slot - 97 ERA+#4 slot - 90 ERA+#5 slot - 78 ERA+This makes the case that Garland is a strong 2, who throws 200 (okay, at least 190 innings) a year.If this isn't convincing, just take a look around baseball (AL is more relevant) and see where he'd slot (with a typical season of 200 innings of ~112 ERA+) on each team this year.Baltimore - 3Boston - 2Chicago - 3Cleveland - 3Detroit - 2KC - 3LAAAA - 4Minnesota - 2NYY - 2/3 (virtual tie with Pettitte)Oakland - 2/3 (Blanton)Seattle - 1/2 (Hernandez....remember, this is just typical Garland vs. 2007 numbers. I fully expect Felix to be much better than Garland going forward)Tampa Bay - 3Texas - 1 (by a lot)Toronto - 2/3/4 (behind Halladay, in a pack of guys with similar/better numbers with less innings)So, not the most scientific method, but I'd say Garland comes out looking like a 2 or a 3. The dangerous thing is that the only team he'd be a possible 4 on is the team he went to. Not sure they could have gotten more for Cabrera, unless they decided to rob the Dodgers blind.

[PMJackson21 0]

Not sure they could have gotten more for Cabrera, unless they decided to rob the Dodgers blind.

Why again would the Dodgers be interested in Orlando Cabrera? You referred to him as a 33 yo shortstop in an earlier post, so I wouldn't think you had him mixed up with Miguel Cabrera, who the Dodgers are reportedly pursuing.

[JoeyJoJo 18]

Why again would the Dodgers be interested in Orlando Cabrera? You referred to him as a 33 yo shortstop in an earlier post, so I wouldn't think you had him mixed up with Miguel Cabrera, who the Dodgers are reportedly pursuing.

So they can create a whole team of nothing but shortstops and CF's. Too bad they don't still have Izturis. 1B - Nomar, 2B - Izturis, SS - Cabrera, 3B - Furcal, LF - Pierre, CF - Rowand, RF - Kemp. Who do you think would make a better catcher? A SS or a CF?

[PMJackson21 0]

So they can create a whole team of nothing but shortstops and CF's. Too bad they don't still have Izturis. 1B - Nomar, 2B - Izturis, SS - Cabrera, 3B - Furcal, LF - Pierre, CF - Rowand, RF - Kemp. Who do you think would make a better catcher? A SS or a CF?

Prob a SS since they are more used to dirt. ;)Don't forget that young Taiwanese kid that won the Future Stars game MVP last year is a SS, I think Tony Abreu started his career as a SS....is Ramon Martinez still on the roster? Another former SS. I bet Mariano Duncan could play in a pinch as well.

[thehidden 0]

Prob a SS since they are more used to dirt. ;)Don't forget that young Taiwanese kid that won the Future Stars game MVP last year is a SS, I think Tony Abreu started his career as a SS....is Ramon Martinez still on the roster? Another former SS. I bet Mariano Duncan could play in a pinch as well.

maybe they'll bring Juan Samuel out of retirement?

[PMJackson21 0]

maybe they'll bring Juan Samuel out of retirement?

True, I really felt like I didn't get enough Juan the first time around. He's prob younger then Julio Franco. Personally, I'm hoping the Dodgers make a play for Jose Offerman when he is parolled.

[JoeyJoJo 18]

True, I really felt like I didn't get enough Juan the first time around.

I liked him better on ER.

[PMJackson21 0]

I liked him better on ER.

I raise:Nothing beats the Prince of Soul Glo, Daryl Jenks.

[lvpro 0]

I was counting 192.2 and 191.2 as 200-inning seasons...I think that's close enough where the point is valid. He's definitely better than a 4th starter. I don't like to use wins as a stat often, but Garland recently ('05-'06) had back to back 18-win seasons. 4th starters don't do that. Let's take a closer look though:AL #1 SP < = 3.61AL #2 SP 3.62 - 4.06AL #3 SP 4.07 - 4.57AL #4 SP 4.58 - 5.78AL #5 SP >= 5.79Those are ERAs by rotation slot for the AL in 2005. Here's Jon Garland for the last three years:3.50 - #14.51 - #34.23 - #3So he's had a #1-type season, and 2 #3-type seasons in the last 3 years. These numbers undersell him slightly because in the last three seasons, U.S. Cellular has slightly favored hitters.Combining the above data (ERA, park factors, peer performance), we get:ERA+128105112100 is an average ERA+. The average starting pitcher is less than 100. To put these numbers back into the context of 2005 (this data is for both leagues):#1 slot - 118 ERA+#2 slot - 104 ERA+#3 slot - 97 ERA+#4 slot - 90 ERA+#5 slot - 78 ERA+This makes the case that Garland is a strong 2, who throws 200 (okay, at least 190 innings) a year.If this isn't convincing, just take a look around baseball (AL is more relevant) and see where he'd slot (with a typical season of 200 innings of ~112 ERA+) on each team this year.Baltimore - 3Boston - 2Chicago - 3Cleveland - 3Detroit - 2KC - 3LAAAA - 4Minnesota - 2NYY - 2/3 (virtual tie with Pettitte)Oakland - 2/3 (Blanton)Seattle - 1/2 (Hernandez....remember, this is just typical Garland vs. 2007 numbers. I fully expect Felix to be much better than Garland going forward)Tampa Bay - 3Texas - 1 (by a lot)Toronto - 2/3/4 (behind Halladay, in a pack of guys with similar/better numbers with less innings)So, not the most scientific method, but I'd say Garland comes out looking like a 2 or a 3. The dangerous thing is that the only team he'd be a possible 4 on is the team he went to. Not sure they could have gotten more for Cabrera, unless they decided to rob the Dodgers blind.

Fair enough. I'm convinced.

[JoeyJoJo 18]

Fair enough. I'm convinced.

I don't think you understand how to debate on the internet.You never change your mind.Not ever.

[Tactical Bear 3]

I don't think you understand how to debate on the internet.You never change your mind.Not ever.

I think the only way to handle lvpro's situation would be to respond with something like:"Nice, job there. Nice research. Niiiice research. You fucking research-faggot." Or something like that. Don't admit you're wrong. Don't make it clear whether or not you're being sarcastic. Then sling an inappropriate insult.

[MDXS 0]

Why again would the Dodgers be interested in Orlando Cabrera? You referred to him as a 33 yo shortstop in an earlier post, so I wouldn't think you had him mixed up with Miguel Cabrera, who the Dodgers are reportedly pursuing.

I was just ragging on the Dodgers. I don't understand some of their personnel decisions.

[FHgrad99 0]

I'm hearing that Miguel Cabrera will either go to the Dodgers or Angels. I think whoever doesn't get Cabrera might explore a trade for Scott Rolen.

[thehidden 0]

True, I really felt like I didn't get enough Juan the first time around. He's prob younger then Julio Franco. Personally, I'm hoping the Dodgers make a play for Jose Offerman when he is parolled.

the offerman deal is contingent on any interleague games that would be played in Toronto, as he wouldn't be able to cross the border.Though I do hear Rae Carruth is lighting it up in the California Penal League

[aadams_22 3]

the offerman deal is contingent on any interleague games that would be played in Toronto, as he wouldn't be able to cross the border.

so Offerman isn't even allowed to return home either?

[thehidden 0]

so Offerman isn't even allowed to return home either?

i dunno, i'm guessing that's one of the contingents on the whole bail for a felony thing

[aadams_22 3]

Santana to Yankees?http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3129086

[Buckeye Hughes 0]

Santana to Yankees?http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3129086

Please God do not let this happen

[aadams_22 3]

Please God do not let this happen

It would be stupid for the Yankees to take Santana, because they would have to package together 3-4 top prospects in order to land him. I'm not sure if the Yankees want to give up the likes of Joba Chamberlain, Phil Hughes, Ian Kennedy, Robinson Cano, etc.

[Buckeye Hughes 0]

It would be stupid for the Yankees to take Santana, because they would have to package together 3-4 top prospects in order to land him. I'm not sure if the Yankees want to give up the likes of Joba Chamberlain, Phil Hughes, Ian Kennedy, Robinson Cano, etc.

A family friend of mine is in their farm system. Should be at AA this year. He's a tall lefty with good stuff.