Playing Poker For A Living.......

[vbnautilus 48]

The discussion of tournament vs. cash reminds me of something I learned from the book Flow: The Psychology of Optimal Experience by Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, which I highly recommend. (Yeah, crazy amount of letters for one guy's name). Anyways he studied the question of under what conditions people have "optimal" experiences. When you ask people when they think they have their best experiences, they often report relaxation times, like sitting on the beach in the Bahamas for example. But when you actually sample their experiences, it turns out people really feel best when they are consumed by an activity which is challenging enough to be completely engaging, but not too impossible to be frustrating. It also must have has clear, attainable goals with feedback about how you are progressing towards that goal. When we get involved in an activity like this we have no attention left over for anything else, we are completely engrossed in the moment; this is what he calls the state of "flow". I think the part about a clear and specific goal is what makes tournaments so appealing (compared to cash games) both for participants and observers: there is a well-defined finish line that you can achieve. Of course you can set goals for yourself when you are playing cash, but that's not really the same thing -- if you want to you can keep playing a cash game forever.

[uncooper 1]

I hate when people say "I didn't read all the replies yet, but here's my response". I mean cmon guy, what's so important that you can't read replies and just check if what you are about to say has already been said?I didn't read all the replies yet, but here's my response.I think there is something about the temperament of a lot of cash game players that does NOT welcome attention. I think a lot of cash players feel that having a reputation of any sort would both decrease their ability to get action, and decrease the likelihood of getting action from players who offer a significant edge.Conversely, tourney players seem to welcome attention. They compete for leaderboards, rankings, and player of the ____ awards. Partially, this is related to the fact that tournament players can now be sponsored. Attention in the tournament poker world can get you a job.

[nutzbuster 7]

Cappy's post is very honest and full of truths. Well done. If poker became a full time 'MUST WIN' grind for me I am fairly certain I would not like it as much.In fact I started a thread about some of these same issues a while back regarding whether or not I thought I would continue my plans to play for a living in a few years. Several folks posted their personal stories of the ups and downs. It was great info. and very eye opening.for those who may have missed it...http://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poker-foru...=109890&hl=Regarding the 'Awe' factor of seeing/meeting famous players, I think it's only natural to feel excited because they are where/who you want to be and it's only normal to stare for a bit and wonder. My overall fascination with celeb players has waned a great deal from the early days, mainly because I've been lucky over the past 2 years to have met many of the pros. Most are cool, some are not, or seem not to be. But that is the case with most people in general regardless of their field. But it's always cool to have quick conversation with the nice pros....sorta makes you feel like the pro poker world isn't such a gritty place and that you have a little place in it.But overall, for me, the more I got into poker the more it became about the People. It has been awesome meeting and hanging out with everyone. I would take those great times (the golf outing, the dinners, the buffets, the bowling, the railing) THIS what matters most to me. These are the things I remember, the things I hold dear. These are the memories I will cherish., not the 12 hour sessions, or bubbles, etc.I have always felt that unless you can balance this game with quality social interactions away from the table, you are going to feel empty after a while. As always, best of luck to you grinders. I wish the best of luck for everyone and look forward to meeting may more of you over the next few years.

[psujohn 0]

In regards to poker, I am not considering going pro, mainly because I make a steady income but I also see a lot of players doing everything they can to make money on the rise of poker through endoursements, appearances, books, etc. which tells me the money to burn lifestyle we all percieve isn't reality.

Good observation.I think the biggest reason we see a lot of poker players living a money to burn lifestyle is that they're willing to burn all they have unlike your average joe who often has a higher net worth.

[mr_druid 0]

Stop telling everyone not to go pro. Stop telling everyone to build a decent bankroll before they move up. Stop telling everyone to stay at the level they are not and not move up yet. It's hard to make money when everyone is too educated to bring it to the table or too concerned about losing it. Let people be morons and profit off of it. Stop teaching, if you want to teach go to the YMCA on a Saturday and work with little Timmy on his basketball skills.Tom.

[fighter 4]

This is kind of off topic but seeing Steve mention normal people's reation to poker and cappy’s post made me write this. Long obviously:When you first sit down at a poker table you are playing a game. It is entertainment that win lose or draw should be a good time. When you first see someone blow up you looked at them and probably laughed . You ask yourself a questions like "why are they taking this game so serious?" You might see someone walk away from the table on the verge of crying and think "If they cant afford to lose the money why did they sit down at the table to begin with?". This logic is valid and used excessively throughout the poker world.Whenever you sit at a poker table for a period of time someone is losing money. This is often glossed over but for someone to be ahead someone has to be behind. You hope that the money is from someone who can afford to lose it and that they had a good time doing it. "So that doctor has to wait a week or two extra until he can buy his new 9 iron , why should I care?". A majority of the time this isn’t the case and the more you play the more you see people who are playing with more then spare change or recreation money. I will use boxing as an analogy. You can train for it and spar and never step foot in the ring. If you decide that you need more then the play money world of boxing then you will have to try and hurt someone. They are after your blood and you are both willing participants but there is something about the human condition that has you time to time unable to avoid the fact that you are hurting another human being. One major problem is there isn’t a referee for poker. Some that stops the game if the person on the table can’t handle another blow. While we introduce bank roll management to protect ourselves, it is really just a version of throwing in the towel and there is very little to stop us from killing someone financially.When you turn pro you start to see little visions of this more and more. You are only trying you protect yourself and win. You got into this game for the skill and discipline but more and more you are seeing pain inflicted by your actions. A sweet revenge for the sucker punch they landed on me but other times it is just painful to see someone blearing a hole with his eye at the felt that use to hold his rent. While a TKO would be enough you really want to just completely outclassing someone and deliver the ten count. You are happy because you are winning but like the boxer you want him to get back up, you dont want to kill him you only wanted to beat him. Ultimately it will come down to the idea that he wants my money as much as I want his and that dog eat dog mentality is not a quality that society respects but is needed if you are to play poker for anything other then a hobby. Even then you still hope that the person on the other side of the ring will get up after the 10 count. In conclusion while you’re admiring the left hook you just delivered someone is trying to find his teeth. People are often quick to forget that and look surprised by the reaction they get from the general public about there poker involvement.

[gfdsa146 0]

I can't think of a single high stakes cash game player who was not rooting for David "the Dragon" Pham to win the WPT at the Bike. The reason is quite simple. At least some of the money that he won would be circulated around the poker world in cash games. Now you have a guy like Dan Harrington. Well if he wins, that money is essentially gone from the poker world forever.

I'm curious as to why you'd say that.

[SpiderGuard 0]

I think that the posts in this thread are really interesting, and really something to think about.However, I think I disagree with the idea that people don't want to rail cash games. I know there used to be frequent threads about DN playing on Stars, and about the big games at Full Tilt. After a while they stop getting posted, but I know I would go rail someone like Steve or any of my low stakes buddies here playing cash games. In response to Cappy's post - I think the reason I like playing Razz, TD, and anything other than NLHE is that I don't know the math in them NEARLY as well as I do for NLHE. I have enough of an idea of when to bet, when to check/call, and when to fold where I'm not losing money in those games, but I know I'm not good enough at them to be cursing people out for making donkey plays. And to jump on to 20TN40's bandwagon - 6 or 7 of us did a $1.10 Razz barrage last night. Most of us aren't really Razz players, but I think 3 people made it in to the money, I missed it by a couple spots, and we all went around railing each other, goofing around in an AIM chat, and just generally had a good time. That's what poker is for me - a hobby that is basically self-sustaining for me and a good way to have some fun with good people. I personally wish we'd do things like that more often, especially in goofy games like Razz.

In conclusion while you’re admiring the left hook you just delivered someone is trying to find his teeth. People are often quick to forget that and look surprised by the reaction they get from the general public about there poker involvement.

If I had a sig, this would be it.

[Balloon guy 158]

Today I set up a couple parties, mostly lighting effects. One was at an exclusive country club, for a party of about 100-120 people.Their entertainment for the night is Toby Keith.When you see real money and what they have at their disposal, you are less impressed with a $10,000 bling necklace and a shopping spree of $3K for halloween costumes.As Steve said before, only a small number of people make a real living at poker.

[Fox31317 0]

Good post steve i enjoyed it.

[Clay Aiken 7]

Clay Aiken, if someone were to ask you to construct a theory of reality from first principles, how would you respond??

In order to understand how things end, you must first understand where you began!! Although I can't remember the details in exhaustive detail, I do know in general terms how things began for me. For I was conceived in the mind of a centaur less than three millennia ago, the very same centaur that dutifully stands on guard at the blazing center of the universe, waiting for his one command that will send him into a tailspin of kaleidoscopic chaos which Fate destined for him at the moment of creation. And as I think about his noble fight that will enfold in due time, I'm led to consider my own battle which I too must wage. It's not a battle fought with swords, or violence, or even words. No, it is a battle within, the restless feelings that tell me that all my work has been in vain, that my dewdrop smile has not changed the world for the better, or that when I sing my cheerful songs of liquefied delight, no one hears. And as my soul grabs desperately at anything to hold, I hear the "Po-tweet, po-tweet" of a friend too often forgotten, my bluebird friend whose existence I brought into being on a snowy night three years ago as I envisioned this being of rarefied beauty, and now has come to flap his wings of hope that I might take hold and fly away to the worlds he imagined and thus brought forth. And so I grab hold and we fly away, and as I approach the final destination I can do nothing but gasp. For the centaur lies crestfallen at the hands of a cosmic, yet beautiful butterfly, three stories high and wrapped in a cocoon of rainbows and dipped in the lilac love that the Creator of the Universe has held in store for this his final purpose. And though the centaur's thoughts have been ceased, I still exist. Like the butterfly I have emerged from my cocoon in the centaur's mind to become a real man!! What a thought, what a humbling experience to be sure. This I truly and honestly believe!! Wonderful!!

[steve7stud 0]

I'm curious as to why you'd say that.

David plays cash games all the time. Dan Harrington doesn't.

[NoSup4U 0]

In order to understand how things end, you must first understand where you began!! Although I can't remember the details in exhaustive detail, I do know in general terms how things began for me. For I was conceived in the mind of a centaur less than three millennia ago, the very same centaur that dutifully stands on guard at the blazing center of the universe, waiting for his one command that will send him into a tailspin of kaleidoscopic chaos which Fate destined for him at the moment of creation. And as I think about his noble fight that will enfold in due time, I'm led to consider my own battle which I too must wage. It's not a battle fought with swords, or violence, or even words. No, it is a battle within, the restless feelings that tell me that all my work has been in vain, that my dewdrop smile has not changed the world for the better, or that when I sing my cheerful songs of liquefied delight, no one hears. And as my soul grabs desperately at anything to hold, I hear the "Po-tweet, po-tweet" of a friend too often forgotten, my bluebird friend whose existence I brought into being on a snowy night three years ago as I envisioned this being of rarefied beauty, and now has come to flap his wings of hope that I might take hold and fly away to the worlds he imagined and thus brought forth. And so I grab hold and we fly away, and as I approach the final destination I can do nothing but gasp. For the centaur lies crestfallen at the hands of a cosmic, yet beautiful butterfly, three stories high and wrapped in a cocoon of rainbows and dipped in the lilac love that the Creator of the Universe has held in store for this his final purpose. And though the centaur's thoughts have been ceased, I still exist. Like the butterfly I have emerged from my cocoon in the centaur's mind to become a real man!! What a thought, what a humbling experience to be sure. This I truly and honestly believe!! Wonderful!!

<3Have you been reading those books vbnautilus has been pushing on us lately?Mark

[RDog 0]

Ummmmm.....just curious if Steve, Vick etc that say cash games get no love have noticed the biggest thread in General history? I'm not saying Steve doesn't make some good points but to say that FCP doesn't give cash games love? If people who play cash decide not to post in that thread and "share" their cash game experience, that is their choice but I don't think any argument can be made that we ignore cash. I am routinely happy (or you know jealous) when Mark, Jon or Jordan (and occasionally Jeet) are killing some decent stake cash games.

[Teck_72 0]

<3 this threadkeep going guys

[vbnautilus 48]

<3Have you been reading those books vbnautilus has been pushing on us lately?Mark

I was going to recommend this one next.

[YBravo 0]

In order to understand how things end, you must first understand where you began!! Although I can't remember the details in exhaustive detail, I do know in general terms how things began for me. For I was conceived in the mind of a centaur less than three millennia ago, the very same centaur that dutifully stands on guard at the blazing center of the universe, waiting for his one command that will send him into a tailspin of kaleidoscopic chaos which Fate destined for him at the moment of creation. And as I think about his noble fight that will enfold in due time, I'm led to consider my own battle which I too must wage. It's not a battle fought with swords, or violence, or even words. No, it is a battle within, the restless feelings that tell me that all my work has been in vain, that my dewdrop smile has not changed the world for the better, or that when I sing my cheerful songs of liquefied delight, no one hears. And as my soul grabs desperately at anything to hold, I hear the "Po-tweet, po-tweet" of a friend too often forgotten, my bluebird friend whose existence I brought into being on a snowy night three years ago as I envisioned this being of rarefied beauty, and now has come to flap his wings of hope that I might take hold and fly away to the worlds he imagined and thus brought forth. And so I grab hold and we fly away, and as I approach the final destination I can do nothing but gasp. For the centaur lies crestfallen at the hands of a cosmic, yet beautiful butterfly, three stories high and wrapped in a cocoon of rainbows and dipped in the lilac love that the Creator of the Universe has held in store for this his final purpose. And though the centaur's thoughts have been ceased, I still exist. Like the butterfly I have emerged from my cocoon in the centaur's mind to become a real man!! What a thought, what a humbling experience to be sure. This I truly and honestly believe!! Wonderful!!

Yesssssssssss!!!

[nutzbuster 7]

If there is a thought out there that tournament players get an undue amount of attention over cash game players, I will say that I think it is difficult/unfair to compare tournaments to live cash games.They are 2 completely different animals.Tourneys are like a sporting event...a one time thing, often covering only a few hours, with a finite amount of entrants, with only one winner taking down thousands, or millions for their efforts. The event has a defined begining and a final conclusion. And sometimes the most unlikely person wins and that is very exciting. Or, the same person wins multiple tourneys, against all odds, and that seems equally amazing. And it doesn't involve much of our time to support and observe this thrill.And we all wish it was us. THIS is why we are so attracted to railing them and why it is cool to see one of our own take down a nice cash.Cash games however go on indefinitely, over days, months, years, no defined begining and virtually never ending, with no one person taking down a major prize. Rather, it is a slow never ending roller coaster of winning and losing, winning and losing, giving and taking, etc. and all the time going on without anyone knowing about it. It's not like cash sessions are advertised.A winning cash game player's success happens over the long haul and it's just not reasonable to expect someone to rail that on a regular basis. Now that's not to say that cash pros never get their due. I think they do. Perhaps that is what you were getting at Steve? I think we all know who the best cash game players are for the most part, and perhaps many of the lesser known greats actually prefer to remain anonymous? I remember back to the WSOP about 3AM when Steve and 3 others were playing Chinese for $100 a point. At one point the conversation turned to how the fame would be nice, but the anonymity is SO much more profitable. I tend to agree. I for one am very envious of the amazing players and can only dream of ever being that good. I am impressed and fully respect Steve's (as well as many other pros) cash game talents. I have seen first hand Steve take apart tables filled with some of the games best known players. It is a very cool thing to observe. And I am equally amazed when we all get to hear stories about some incredible private cash game where someone won 10's of thousands.It's all equally impressive in my book. But to compare watching and following tournaments to watching and following cash games, as if one is more worthy or attention over the other, just doesn't make much sense to me. They are just two completely different things.

[Balloon guy 158]

But to compare watching and following tournaments to watching and following cash games, as if one is more worthy or attention over the other, just doesn't make much sense to me. They are just two completely different things.

Let me explain:In one, they are watching a CASH games.in the other they are watching a TOURNAMENT.In one they don't see the hole cardsIn the other they do.In one they can root for a guy cause someone will be THE winner.In the other they will only be ahead for now.In one you lose your buy inIn the other you lose your houseIn one you get a cool shirt if you bust out a famous playerIn the other you get taken off their Christmas card listIn the one you can see Phil Helmuth and be afraid he'll sit at your tableIn the other you can see Phil Helmuth and be afraid he WON'T sit at your table.That help?

[NoSup4U 0]

Let me explain:In one, they are watching a CASH games.in the other they are watching a TOURNAMENT.In one they don't see the hole cardsIn the other they do.In one they can root for a guy cause someone will be THE winner.In the other they will only be ahead for now.In one you lose your buy inIn the other you lose your houseIn one you get a cool shirt if you bust out a famous playerIn the other you get taken off their Christmas card listIn the one you can see Phil Helmuth and be afraid he'll sit at your tableIn the other you can see Phil Helmuth and be afraid he WON'T sit at your table.That help?

Seriously, will you have my babies. This could be the best post ever.Mark

[nutzbuster 7]

Let me explain:In one, they are watching a CASH games.in the other they are watching a TOURNAMENT.In one they don't see the hole cardsIn the other they do.In one they can root for a guy cause someone will be THE winner.In the other they will only be ahead for now.In one you lose your buy inIn the other you lose your houseIn one you get a cool shirt if you bust out a famous playerIn the other you get taken off their Christmas card listIn the one you can see Phil Helmuth and be afraid he'll sit at your tableIn the other you can see Phil Helmuth and be afraid he WON'T sit at your table.That help?

I'm still confused..."....ERIK?...."

[Balloon guy 158]

Seriously, will you have my babies. This could be the best post ever.Mark

Allright..but I don't know where I'll put em.Can they cook?

[nutzbuster 7]

[finztotheleft 0]

I BGAn excellent topic with great posts........Clay and BG put it over the top for me

[Jordan 1]

tournaments can die....but seriously, and i'm kinda serious about that ^^tournies are like events, well they are events, so they get more attention when people go deep in them, cause it's usually a rare occurence to go deep in mtts and ft them, win them etc...that being said, for cash game players, like I know for instance, Jon (hoosier alum), and myself over the last few months, it is very hard to take a standard mtt seriously when you are thinking about cash games and often times making what the top few positions make in a day or two...i used to play a decent amount of tournies, enver a ton, but i've had good success, enough success that it seems stupid that i don't play them more..but i just hate them, and I see cash games as a better way to earn money, and more enjoyable...not to mention I think it makes me a better player in general, as you get into many more situations and decisions, as opposed to mtts where you are normally in the 25-45bb range.i railed whatarunaa's sunday mil ft cause they honestly will probably not happen again, at least not for a while...so it's cool when it happens...but i def. have more respect for people like pokerplayer24, who most of you probably dont know as he doesnt' post here often, but he basically went from 1/2 to 25/50 the last few months, gridning away 6 max and hu cash games...and earning a lot more than a few fts would net him in standard 50 - 100 - 200$ mtts, unless of course he won the mil a few times. :)i like to post graphs and talk about cash games in the challenge thread, i mean, honestly fcp doesnt have a lot of high stakes cash games players, nor even msnl, which is where I am....so if i post a graph having a +5k day here it may be a nice "day" for a typical fcper, but on places like 2+2, it's just incredibly standard and over there, there really is nothing special about anything cause everyone is used to have -5 +5k days, or -20k +20k swings, etc...but normally mtt scores are always "exciting", cause it's so rare...i only see myself personally getting excited for ftop/wcoop type events, or traveling to big live events, which is always fun...but any given day i'd much rather play cash games, than sit and play a few 9 handed mtts where i'll be making first place money <2% of the time, but could be earning that in cash games in a day or two or three.but like anything poker related, a lot of this is relative...- Jordan