Official Manu Ginobili Thread

[babylondonks 5]

I disagree with some of that list, but not to the extent of tskillz. I am admittedly not a huge fan of Ginobli, but he's come off his proverbial heater now and is starting to show how he's been for the rest of his career (not this bad, but still). The Suns don't use Marion too well on defense, often because he is forced to play D at PF with Nash, Bell and Hill at the perimeter. Marion is a great player and shouldn't just be seen as the Suns 'third guy', as he's so much more than that. I don't think he could successfully be 'the man' on any team a la Lebron, but that isn't his style. And Ginobli sure as hell couldn't be 'the man' on any team.

[Jadaki 0]

Marion is the most overrated garbage player in the league. No one wants him. The Spurs would absolutely not trade Manu for Marion, they'd be crazy too. He is a tweener, and can't score consistently in a half court offense. How can you think Ginobili is a product of Duncan, but think that Marion's success isn't from the best PG in the league? Who is Marion defending anyways? Raja is their shut down defender...on a team that perenially doesn't get defensive stops. So Marion scores more often on a team that scores way more often because of the up-tempo Nash style, yet his numbers are similar of those to Ginobili's? I'd venture to guess that he sees 20% more possessions to get those numbers in. Ginobili is 5th in the league in Efficiency/48 minutes. That's kind of like the most important stat in the league. (This was as of a week ago, I'm sure he's dropped a little)Who did AI get traded for again? GM's were just dying to trade solid players to the 76ers to get him....Amare, while better than Marion is still coming off injury and isn't as explosive as before. Amare from 3 years ago was one of the best players in the league. I still like him but he's been up and down this year.You consistently hate on Manu's defense, he is always near the top in the league at SPG (a stat that people don't like but it is what it is,) and he draws more charges than almost any player in the league. His help defense/team defense is amazing, he isn't a great 1 on 1 defender but he's certainly not someone other teams look to exploit.Comparing Marion (the 3rd player on a team that's never won anything,) is pretty funny...especially considering Manu is the leading scorer on the defending Champs that currently have a better record. Manu absolutely owns the Suns, Nash compares favorably to Parker, Duncan has been dominated by Amare, and yet somehow the Suns don't ever beat the Spurs in a playoff series...sigh.

Your off your rocker.Who can get traded for who has nothing to do with matching up talent vs talent. Especially when you are talking top ten player in the league. Look who the 76ers got in return for Barkley, look what the Timberwolves got for Garnett.I'm telling you that any GM starting a team for scratch isn't penciling in Manu as a player he would kill to get. Every player I listed in that first group would get drafted ahead of him today.Are you really telling me Manu is singlehandedly responsible for the Spurs beating the Suns last year, I give David Stern more credit than I do Manu for that.Last years playoff stats by game...Manu

1. 1 - 2-9, 8 pts, 9 reb, 4 asts
2. 2 - 3-9, 6 pts, 5 reb, 5 asts, 3 st, 2 to
3. 3 - 8-19, 24 pts, 2 reb, 4 asts, 2 st, 1 to
4. 4 - 3-14, 10 pt, 4 reb, 4 asts, 3 st
5. 5 - 7-15, 26 pts, 10 reb, 3 asts, 2 st, 5 to
6. 6 - 11-17, 33 pts, 11 reb, 6 asts, 4 st, 3 to

Series: 34-83 (40.9%), 107 pts (17.8), 41 reb (6.8), 26 asts (4.3), 14 steals (2.3) 11 TO's (1.8)Marion

1. 1 - 7-12, 16 pts, 6 reb, 1 asts
2. 2 - 2-4, 5 pts, 10 reb, 1 asts, 1 st, 1 to
3. 3 - 11-21, 26pts, 7 reb, 2 st, 2 to
4. 4 - 4-8, 12 pts, 12 reb, 2 st, 1 to
5. 5 - 9-16, 24 pts, 17 reb, 1 asts, 1 st, 2 to
6. 6 - 5-12, 11 pts, 11 rebs, 1 ast, 1 stl, 2 to

Series: 38-73 (52%), 94 pts (15.6), 63 reb (10.5), 4 asts (.66), 7 steals (1.2) 8 TO's (1.3)12% difference in FG%, 4 less boards, 4 more assist, double the steals and more TO's. Not to mention he didn't really shut anyone down, it's not like Manu was ever guarding the best offense players on the Suns like Marion was every single game.I also looked up your "most important stat in the league, efficiency" and Marion is ahead of Ginboili there too (24.46 to 20.09) this year. Heck, lets look at last years efficiency in detail where Manu ranks 45th. I'm waiting to see what your excuse is for that stat not being accurate now since you brought it up.Lets not forget who is the 4 time all star and two time member of the All-NBA teams and who has only been an all star once.Best at taking charges, more like best at flopping since Divac. I don't even dislike Manu, I think he is fun to watch play especially considering how boring his team is most the time. I just think your irrational man crush on him is creepy and you are delusional if you think he is one of the top 30 players in the league.

[Jadaki 0]

efficiency in detail

Just to clarify, thats the 04-05 season stats, for some reason NBA'com isn't reporting the stats for last year correctly.I found the stats, Manu is currently 30th in that stat. A lot of guys you said he is better than are ahead of him on this list.

PLAYER NAME, EFF1 - Dwight Howard 30.442 - LeBron James 30.373 - Carlos Boozer 29.834 - Kevin Garnett 27.245 - Chris Kaman 26.146 - Chris Paul 25.917 - Ming Yao 25.178 - Kobe Bryant 25.149 - Shawn Marion 24.4610 - Marcus Camby 24.3911 - Steve Nash 24.2912 - Baron Davis 23.9113 - Caron Butler 23.8314 - Amare Stoudemire 23.6715 - Dirk Nowitzki 23.1616 - Allen Iverson 22.8717 - Al Jefferson 22.6418 - Josh Howard 22.2619 - Jason Kidd 21.8720 - Deron Williams 21.621 - Antawn Jamison 21.3922 - Chris Bosh 21.3723 - Tim Duncan 21.3224 - Michael Redd 21.2625 - Paul Pierce 21.0526 - Chauncey Billups 20.7627 - Josh Smith 20.4628 - Kevin Martin 20.2929 - Tracy McGrady 20.1430 - Manu Ginobili 20.09

[Poppy_Hillis 11]

Your off your rocker.Who can get traded for who has nothing to do with matching up talent vs talent. Especially when you are talking top ten player in the league. Look who the 76ers got in return for Barkley, look what the Timberwolves got for Garnett.I'm telling you that any GM starting a team for scratch isn't penciling in Manu as a player he would kill to get. Every player I listed in that first group would get drafted ahead of him today.Are you really telling me Manu is singlehandedly responsible for the Spurs beating the Suns last year, I give David Stern more credit than I do Manu for that.Last years playoff stats by game...Manu

1. 1 - 2-9, 8 pts, 9 reb, 4 asts
2. 2 - 3-9, 6 pts, 5 reb, 5 asts, 3 st, 2 to
3. 3 - 8-19, 24 pts, 2 reb, 4 asts, 2 st, 1 to
4. 4 - 3-14, 10 pt, 4 reb, 4 asts, 3 st
5. 5 - 7-15, 26 pts, 10 reb, 3 asts, 2 st, 5 to
6. 6 - 11-17, 33 pts, 11 reb, 6 asts, 4 st, 3 to

Series: 34-83 (40.9%), 107 pts (17.8), 41 reb (6.8), 26 asts (4.3), 14 steals (2.3) 11 TO's (1.8)Marion

1. 1 - 7-12, 16 pts, 6 reb, 1 asts
2. 2 - 2-4, 5 pts, 10 reb, 1 asts, 1 st, 1 to
3. 3 - 11-21, 26pts, 7 reb, 2 st, 2 to
4. 4 - 4-8, 12 pts, 12 reb, 2 st, 1 to
5. 5 - 9-16, 24 pts, 17 reb, 1 asts, 1 st, 2 to
6. 6 - 5-12, 11 pts, 11 rebs, 1 ast, 1 stl, 2 to

Series: 38-73 (52%), 94 pts (15.6), 63 reb (10.5), 4 asts (.66), 7 steals (1.2) 8 TO's (1.3)12% difference in FG%, 4 less boards, 4 more assist, double the steals and more TO's. Not to mention he didn't really shut anyone down, it's not like Manu was ever guarding the best offense players on the Suns like Marion was every single game.I also looked up your "most important stat in the league, efficiency" and Marion is ahead of Ginboili there too (24.46 to 20.09) this year. Heck, lets look at last years efficiency in detail where Manu ranks 45th. I'm waiting to see what your excuse is for that stat not being accurate now since you brought it up.Lets not forget who is the 4 time all star and two time member of the All-NBA teams and who has only been an all star once.Best at taking charges, more like best at flopping since Divac. I don't even dislike Manu, I think he is fun to watch play especially considering how boring his team is most the time. I just think your irrational man crush on him is creepy and you are delusional if you think he is one of the top 30 players in the league.

God I wish the Lakers would trade Odom for Marion.Since it looked like fun, I semi-briefly tried to place Ginobili, and I would rank him the 38th best player in the league.

[Jadaki 0]

Since it looked like fun, I semi-briefly tried to place Ginobili, and I would rank him the 38th best player in the league.

Sounds about right to me

[tskillz187 0]

You didn't look up my stat. Efficiency per 48 minutes. It puts everyone on a level playing field. Marion plays more minutes.Here are the players ahead of Ginobili in Efficiency per 48 minutes and their overalls, (I took out players that play less than 10mpg for obvious reasons):Boozer 40.54Howard 37.65LeBron 37.33Amare 36.99Garnett 36.48Bynum 35.56Camby 33.97Nash 33.55Kobe 33.33Paul 33.23Manu 32.5Something you may notice is that it favors big men. Manu is the 4th ranked guard on there. Are you comparing seasons in which Manu was injured, and taking the stat that doesn't equal out playing time to prove that Manu isn't as good as Marion? That's wrong on many different levels.FWIW Laker fan, I'd trade Odom for Marion too, but they are both overrated garbage. Tell one to play like a big man and to develop some kind of move other than wanting to shoot 3's even though hes like 35% from there, and tell the other to learn some kind of semblance of a half court game.I thought Marion's runner to try and win the game down the lane was cute the other night. 3 foot runner...and airball. I hope "clutch" wasn't one of the fabricated things that Marion was better than Ginobili at.

[Jadaki 0]

You didn't look up my stat. Efficiency per 48 minutes. It puts everyone on a level playing field. Marion plays more minutes.

If he was better than Marion, wouldn't he play more minutes?Oh wait... why would worse players play more minutes.

[tskillz187 0]

Manu

1. 1 - 2-9, 8 pts, 9 reb, 4 asts
2. 2 - 3-9, 6 pts, 5 reb, 5 asts, 3 st, 2 to
3. 3 - 8-19, 24 pts, 2 reb, 4 asts, 2 st, 1 to
4. 4 - 3-14, 10 pt, 4 reb, 4 asts, 3 st
5. 5 - 7-15, 26 pts, 10 reb, 3 asts, 2 st, 5 to
6. 6 - 11-17, 33 pts, 11 reb, 6 asts, 4 st, 3 to

Series: 34-83 (40.9%), 107 pts (17.8), 41 reb (6.8), 26 asts (4.3), 14 steals (2.3) 11 TO's (1.8)Marion

1. 1 - 7-12, 16 pts, 6 reb, 1 asts
2. 2 - 2-4, 5 pts, 10 reb, 1 asts, 1 st, 1 to
3. 3 - 11-21, 26pts, 7 reb, 2 st, 2 to
4. 4 - 4-8, 12 pts, 12 reb, 2 st, 1 to
5. 5 - 9-16, 24 pts, 17 reb, 1 asts, 1 st, 2 to
6. 6 - 5-12, 11 pts, 11 rebs, 1 ast, 1 stl, 2 to

Series: 38-73 (52%), 94 pts (15.6), 63 reb (10.5), 4 asts (.66), 7 steals (1.2) 8 TO's (1.3)12% difference in FG%, 4 less boards, 4 more assist, double the steals and more TO's. Not to mention he didn't really shut anyone down, it's not like Manu was ever guarding the best offense players on the Suns like Marion was every single game.

Thank you for showing stats to prove that Manu had a better series than Marion. Difference in FG%, difference in shots taken. Guards typically have a worse fg% than slashers, DUCY? Or maybe Shaq was the best shooter in the league for all those years... Manu avg more points as the "third option" just like Marion. Basically every stat of Manu's is better than Marion's. Then you say he didn't guard their best players. Did you watch the series or are you guessing? Do you know who Marion covered? I'll give you some clues. It wasn't Ginobili, It wasn't Duncan, and it was rarely Parker.The Suns best defender is Raja Bell. He was covering Ginobili.This is all in a playoff run that Manu didn't play well in. Probably because he had no summer off because he was playing overseas all summer. You know representing his country, just like the yr before when he was won the gold. Just like he had played every summer for the past 8 years of his career. He wore down, he's old! Watch this year as he took his summer off he'll be a much better player, all year and throughout the playoffs. I know the guys that you think are better than Manu play so well, but as they are busy not winning us Gold's and losing international competition, they also aren't even asked to represent our team.

[tskillz187 0]

If he was better than Marion, wouldn't he play more minutes?Oh wait... why would worse players play more minutes.

hahahha. I set you up for this response because I knew you'd use it. It's flawed in so many ways. But here you go, the three best players in the league.1 Joe Johnson , ATL 23 938 40.8 2 Caron Butler , WAS 23 934 40.6 3 Jamal Crawford , NYK 23 927 40.3

[Jadaki 0]

hahahha. I set you up for this response because I knew you'd use it. It's flawed in so many ways. But here you go, the three best players in the league.1 Joe Johnson , ATL 23 938 40.8 2 Caron Butler , WAS 23 934 40.6 3 Jamal Crawford , NYK 23 927 40.3

I'd take Joe Johnson and Butler over Manu in a heartbeat, and Crawford is on the same level as Manu.

[Jadaki 0]

Thank you for showing stats to prove that Manu had a better series than Marion. Difference in FG%, difference in shots taken. Guards typically have a worse fg% than slashers, DUCY? Or maybe Shaq was the best shooter in the league for all those years... Manu avg more points as the "third option" just like Marion. Basically every stat of Manu's is better than Marion's. Then you say he didn't guard their best players. Did you watch the series or are you guessing? Do you know who Marion covered? I'll give you some clues. It wasn't Ginobili, It wasn't Duncan, and it was rarely Parker.The Suns best defender is Raja Bell. He was covering Ginobili.This is all in a playoff run that Manu didn't play well in. Probably because he had no summer off because he was playing overseas all summer. You know representing his country, just like the yr before when he was won the gold. Just like he had played every summer for the past 8 years of his career. He wore down, he's old! Watch this year as he took his summer off he'll be a much better player, all year and throughout the playoffs. I know the guys that you think are better than Manu play so well, but as they are busy not winning us Gold's and losing international competition, they also aren't even asked to represent our team.

They had Marion all over Parker for most of the series go back and read the game recaps and they will talk about Marion shutting down Parker for key parts of the games that the Suns won, and when they were in at the same time Marion was guarding Manu during parts of the game. Tell me again who Manu guarded? Are you telling me Marion takes all his shots within 3 feet of the basket, cause you would be wrong, He shoots plenty of jump shots and threes.This is a worthless discussion, because you can't accept that your no defense playing, inconsistent jump shot having, slasher isn't the best in the league which everyone except you seems to already know.

[tskillz187 0]

They had Marion all over Parker for most of the series go back and read the game recaps and they will talk about Marion shutting down Parker for key parts of the games that the Suns won, and when they were in at the same time Marion was guarding Manu during parts of the game. Tell me again who Manu guarded? Are you telling me Marion takes all his shots within 3 feet of the basket, cause you would be wrong, He shoots plenty of jump shots and threes.This is a worthless discussion, because you can't accept that your no defense playing, inconsistent jump shot having, slasher isn't the best in the league which everyone except you seems to already know.

Manu is by far a better shooter than Marion. He's also better at getting to the line, which would probably show he's a better slasher. Marion takes the majority of his shots in fast break and driving situations. That's just true. Manu plays team defense, he's not a great one on one defender. I haven't said he was. You change your argument back and forth. The best players play all the minutes, oh wait it's 3 scrubs from bad teams playing all the minutes. Wait, Manu's minutes are comparable to minutes of other players on elite teams like KG PP and RA. Oh well, forget that argument.Marion has never won anything for anyone. Neither have any of your other players that you lob out. Yet somehow they're better. Just another problem with viewing fans and American basketball. All this athleticism and talent but they can't play basketball well. Manu can. I guess actually winning at basketball isn't enough to prove how good someone is. It's mindblowing. Every team he plays for wins. Period. He's won a championship in every single league he's played, in the highest league in the world, overseas, and international play. Literally 0 other individuals can say that.

[Jadaki 0]

Manu is by far a better shooter than Marion. He's also better at getting to the line, which would probably show he's a better slasher. Marion takes the majority of his shots in fast break and driving situations. That's just true. Manu plays team defense, he's not a great one on one defender. I haven't said he was. You change your argument back and forth. The best players play all the minutes, oh wait it's 3 scrubs from bad teams playing all the minutes. Wait, Manu's minutes are comparable to minutes of other players on elite teams like KG PP and RA. Oh well, forget that argument.Marion has never won anything for anyone. Neither have any of your other players that you lob out. Yet somehow they're better. Just another problem with viewing fans and American basketball. All this athleticism and talent but they can't play basketball well. Manu can. I guess actually winning at basketball isn't enough to prove how good someone is. It's mindblowing. Every team he plays for wins. Period. He's won a championship in every single league he's played, in the highest league in the world, overseas, and international play. Literally 0 other individuals can say that.

No, your changing arguments.Whenever I show you a player is doing better, you change the stat you want to look at.Whenever I show you his personal accomplishments, you want to claim how great a TEAM Manu is on, yet you rip on Duncan and Parker who Manu can't win without. Marion is a better team defender, and a better one on one defender. Let me know when Manu can guard everyone on the other teams 1-4 spots from PG to PF effectively. He cant, end of story.I don't give a crap what Manu has done internationally, the best players are in the NBA... period.One all star appearance. If he was the best, or top 5 as you claim... he would have a whole lot more than that. Next thing you are going to do is break out racism as the reason... before you do let me introduce you to Dirk.

[tskillz187 0]

No, your changing arguments.Whenever I show you a player is doing better, you change the stat you want to look at.Whenever I show you his personal accomplishments, you want to claim how great a TEAM Manu is on, yet you rip on Duncan and Parker who Manu can't win without. Marion is a better team defender, and a better one on one defender. Let me know when Manu can guard everyone on the other teams 1-4 spots from PG to PF effectively. He cant, end of story.I don't give a crap what Manu has done internationally, the best players are in the NBA... period.One all star appearance. If he was the best, or top 5 as you claim... he would have a whole lot more than that. Next thing you are going to do is break out racism as the reason... before you do let me introduce you to Dirk.

This is fun, you are at the point of making no sense and spitting out nonsense.Facts: Manu has won at every single level he's played. Manu has higher efficiency for time played, the one stat that basketball experts look at for how well someone is playing. Manu has won NBA Championships. Manu has more PPG. He won a gold medal on a team that must be worse than USA because "the best players play in the NBA....period." Where I come from we measure how good someone is by how often they win. He has won everywhere. I'm sure that's because every single team he's played for has had a great supporting cast to cover up his flaws, that makes wayyyy more sense than Manu has intangibles that make him a winner. You are using observations and random arguable stats to try and prove something. I don't think you believe in your arguments because they keep changing to whatever seems best and you have proven that you never say you're wrong about anything when it's painfully clear something has been proven. Kobe has said Ginobili is his favorite player in the NBA to watch. George Karl said he was unstoppable and they went after him very hard in free agency. Pop says he is the most competitive person he has ever seen or coached. These are just off the top of my head, he is respected in the league on a much higher level than Marion.I haven't seen a stat that you showed Marion played better? You haven't, you showed stats in which the Spurs won a series, Manu outscored him in less minutes and other stats were comparable...This is all with the Suns putting a defensive stopper on Manu and the Spurs covering Marion with...? A combination of Finley, Barry, Horry?So when Marion's team loses, and he plays more minutes, he can have close to the same stats as Manu. Sweet. Glad we agree on that.

[Jadaki 0]

This is fun, you are at the point of making no sense and spitting out nonsense.Facts: Manu has won at every single level he's played. Manu has higher efficiency for time played, the one stat that basketball experts look at for how well someone is playing. Manu has won NBA Championships. Manu has more PPG. He won a gold medal on a team that must be worse than USA because "the best players play in the NBA....period." Where I come from we measure how good someone is by how often they win. He has won everywhere. I'm sure that's because every single team he's played for has had a great supporting cast to cover up his flaws, that makes wayyyy more sense than Manu has intangibles that make him a winner. You are using observations and random arguable stats to try and prove something. I don't think you believe in your arguments because they keep changing to whatever seems best and you have proven that you never say you're wrong about anything when it's painfully clear something has been proven. Kobe has said Ginobili is his favorite player in the NBA to watch. George Karl said he was unstoppable and they went after him very hard in free agency. Pop says he is the most competitive person he has ever seen or coached. These are just off the top of my head, he is respected in the league on a much higher level than Marion.I haven't seen a stat that you showed Marion played better? You haven't, you showed stats in which the Spurs won a series, Manu outscored him in less minutes and other stats were comparable...This is all with the Suns putting a defensive stopper on Manu and the Spurs covering Marion with...? A combination of Finley, Barry, Horry?So when Marion's team loses, and he plays more minutes, he can have close to the same stats as Manu. Sweet. Glad we agree on that.

You mean, outscored the guy cause being the number 1 option on the second team gets more shots than the #3 option in the starting lineup. I would think to even the most casual observer that would be obvious. Just face it, you're a fan of a really good backup. Just say it with me, Manu is a pretty good backup. Repeat it a few times, kick it around... deal with it.I love the stat you throw out is a made up stat where Manu only competes with Marion if you fabricate his stats over 48 minutes played, but if he could handle it he would be playing those minutes right? When you compare that same stat in actual minutes played, Marion is far more valuable per game. Maybe Manu can't hack it 40 minutes a night in the NBA. Maybe his coach (who is a fairly competent guy) watches Manu day in and day out and says... this guy is decent, but he isn't quite at a level with your average NBA 2/3, but he is always going to be better than their backups so if I play him against the bench as much as possible I will have a advantage on my second team without losing anything on my first team. I'd call that making use of your talent, something Popavich does really well. Congrats on being the toward the top of the second tier players in the league, which is exactly where he belongs. There is nothing wrong with that by the way.If Manu was as good as you say, why doesn't he start? Why can't he guard anyone one on one? Why does he only shoot 40% in a playoff series against a team that is full of losers who can't hold his jockstrap like Phoenix. I probably shoudl add a (sw) here just in case you fail to pick up on it.Please don't give me the BS about the international stuff, we all know that the international teams whose core group plays together year round have an advantage over an all star team that gets two weeks to practice with each other. Why do you think the US is changing the way they approach international competitions and putting together a team that will be practicing and playing with each other outside of the NBA season. Yea Manu has been on winning teams, but he hasn't ever proven that he can be a #1 option, and if you can't be the #1 option on one of the 30 best club teams in the world, how can you be one of the top 10 players? Has Manu ever been a finals MVP? Nope, but Duncan and Parker have.... Don't worry, I don't expect you to answer because you can't. This is the question you keep avoiding.

[tskillz187 0]

I will always answer ever single inquiry about Manu because I'm right. I wouldn't shy away from a topic that I'm so clearly correct about.

You mean, outscored the guy cause being the number 1 option on the second team gets more shots than the #3 option in the starting lineup. I would think to even the most casual observer that would be obvious. Just face it, you're a fan of a really good backup. Just say it with me, Manu is a pretty good backup. Repeat it a few times, kick it around... deal with it.

This isn't even true. He gets more shots because he can create his own shot. There's only so many times Nash can get Marion a dunk. Manu accepted the role of 6man because the Spurs bench was so futile. You know, that super awesome supporting cast you talk about, yeah they were getting their asses kicked, so Manu needed to save them and he set his ego aside. Manu obviously can start on any team in the NBA. How come when anyone mentions 6 man they bitch about Manu? Oh I don't know, maybe because he's the best SG on his team.

I love the stat you throw out is a made up stat where Manu only competes with Marion if you fabricate his stats over 48 minutes played, but if he could handle it he would be playing those minutes right? When you compare that same stat in actual minutes played, Marion is far more valuable per game. Maybe Manu can't hack it 40 minutes a night in the NBA. Maybe his coach (who is a fairly competent guy) watches Manu day in and day out and says... this guy is decent, but he isn't quite at a level with your average NBA 2/3, but he is always going to be better than their backups so if I play him against the bench as much as possible I will have a advantage on my second team without losing anything on my first team. I'd call that making use of your talent, something Popavich does really well. Congrats on being the toward the top of the second tier players in the league, which is exactly where he belongs. There is nothing wrong with that by the way.

It's not a made up stat. It's the stat that most truly tells how well you play in the time that you are on the court. I don't see how that is tough to grasp. Who is playing better when they are out there? You know, like a +/- stat. The NBA is using that now too, the NHL uses it all of the time, it's a pretty accurate stat. How well does my team play when I'm playing? How else can you tell how well someone is really playing?How come every other player in the efficiency/48mins is a top player in the league? There are no flukes besides Ginobili? He's the one bias in the whole system and everyone else is a top tier star. So Rigged, you figured it out.Avergae NBA 2/3's make the All-Star team, have NBA championships, and have won gold medals? Introduce me to one.He definitely loses a ton with Manu not starting, it is countered by the fact that he gains so much by him coming off of the bench. Finley isn't better than Manu at any part of the game. Not shooting, not driving, not defense, not rebounding. He can't create his own shot anymore though, so he needs Duncan, Parker, and Ginobili to set him up.There is nothing wrong with being the top tier of backups. It's an insult when you are actually a top tier player though, nice inaccurate backhanded compliment. I'd give one to a player on the Lakers but they don't have a top 2nd tier player, just the best player in the league surrounded by a bunch of avg to below avg players.

If Manu was as good as you say, why doesn't he start? Why can't he guard anyone one on one? Why does he only shoot 40% in a playoff series against a team that is full of losers who can't hold his jockstrap like Phoenix. I probably shoudl add a (sw) here just in case you fail to pick up on it.

He can guard people one on one. He's not a one on one stopper though. I never said he's a problem defensively. The Spurs don't run a guy at Manu's man when he's in there. He holds his own on defense. So what is your real question? Why does he shoot 40% against a shitty team? Or how is he able to score so many ppg in an off year against the favored team to win the title? I'm not sure if you are complimenting him or taking away from him since your diss makes no sense. We already went over why he doesn't start. He did start. He won a championship starting.

Please don't give me the BS about the international stuff, we all know that the international teams whose core group plays together year round have an advantage over an all star team that gets two weeks to practice with each other. Why do you think the US is changing the way they approach international competitions and putting together a team that will be practicing and playing with each other outside of the NBA season.

The core group plays together year round? Weren't you the one telling me how all of Argentina's players are in the NBA? Somehow they have time to secretly assemble time to practice together but the NBA, which is located in America, and the games are played in America can't manage to get team chemistry? Let me pause to stop laughing.Surely you see how ridiculous your statement looks right? ARG is full of players that play in Italy, Germany, ARG, Greece, and America. Playing yr round...right. This is just a lie that Americans like to throw out there. Team chemistry blah blah blah. Those guys never play together either, they just gel better because they know their roles. This used to be true when all the international teams didn't have players in the NBA, it just isn't the case anymore.So what "we all know" is actually not true, and something you shouldn't believe in.

Yea Manu has been on winning teams, but he hasn't ever proven that he can be a #1 option, and if you can't be the #1 option on one of the 30 best club teams in the world, how can you be one of the top 10 players? Has Manu ever been a finals MVP? Nope, but Duncan and Parker have.... Don't worry, I don't expect you to answer because you can't. This is the question you keep avoiding.

Manu should have won the Finals MVP against Detroit, he was a monster. They weren't going to give it to him because it was Duncan's prime. The voting was 5-4 by the way. And many people were outraged. The #1 option on bad teams is better than 2nd and 3rd options on good teams? Since when? That - as is the case with many of your arguments - just isn't true.Let's do a simple exercise:Eddy Curry (Jamal Crawford? whoever the Knicks #1 is) or Paul Pierce? or Josh Howard? Or Amare Stoudemire? or Allen Iverson? or Rasheed Wallace/Tayshaun Prince? or Deron Williams? or Vince Carter? or Yao Ming/Tracy McGradyAll those number 2's cant hold a torch to Eddy fucking Curry. I said after the top 5-8 players in the league, no one outclasses Manu, or Manu isn't out of the conversation. Something along those lines.

[tskillz187 0]

Time to go play Madden 08. I created Ginobili as my RB for the Eagles but he can only run left.Thanks for the banter.

[Jadaki 0]

We already went over why he doesn't start. He did start. He won a championship starting.The core group plays together year round? Weren't you the one telling me how all of Argentina's players are in the NBA? Somehow they have time to secretly assemble time to practice together but the NBA, which is located in America, and the games are played in America can't manage to get team chemistry? Let me pause to stop laughing.Surely you see how ridiculous your statement looks right? ARG is full of players that play in Italy, Germany, ARG, Greece, and America. Playing yr round...right. This is just a lie that Americans like to throw out there. Team chemistry blah blah blah. Those guys never play together either, they just gel better because they know their roles. This used to be true when all the international teams didn't have players in the NBA, it just isn't the case anymore.So what "we all know" is actually not true, and something you shouldn't believe in.

The rest of your post is silly and pointless since you can't understand why inflating a stat per 48 minutes makes that stat worthless but the stat during the time they actually played is more valuable, so I'm just going to address this and be done with it.I never said all of the Argentina national team in the NBA. I said the Argentina players in the NBA are bigger impact players than the ones from France which you attempted to debunk to make your boy look better than he is. This is the stuff you have to make up to make Manu look good, you rip on all his teammates on every level of play to make him look good. You do the same thing with the Eagles now. While Manu has been in the league several years, most of the other players on that team have 1-3 years experience in the league tops and before that they played in leagues with shorter seasons than the NBA and more time devoted international competition. It's only been in the last 5-6 years that more of the top international talent has started to filter it's way to the NBA after players like Dirk started showing they can convert and play NBA style ball. Go ahead and look up the number of international players in the NBA over the last decade and see how it has climbed.

The #1 option on bad teams is better than 2nd and 3rd options on good teams? Since when? That - as is the case with many of your arguments - just isn't true.

This is a retarded argument and you know it. Kobe is arguably the best player in the league and his team won't come close to sniffing the Finals or even winning their division. Are you telling me Manu is better than Kobe because his team has won more recently? Hell for my money KG has been the most consistent dominating player in the league the last 10 years, and his teams have mostly been garbage and if you think Manu is in KG's league you should never be allowed to watch basketball again. I'll take the #1 option off pretty much every team in the league over Manu, the only exception I can think off off the top of my head might be the Knicks.

[JoeyJoJo 18]

You're both wrong.

[Jadaki 0]

You're both wrong.

You forgot /thread

[tskillz187 0]

The rest of your post is silly and pointless since you can't understand why inflating a stat per 48 minutes makes that stat worthless but the stat during the time they actually played is more valuable, so I'm just going to address this and be done with it.

It's worthless to compare players on if they played the same amount? Seems like the fairest way to do it to me, shrug. It's not like 1 player plays 1 minute and is 1-1. They play similar amounts, but obv more minutes = more stats no?

I never said all of the Argentina national team in the NBA. I said the Argentina players in the NBA are bigger impact players than the ones from France which you attempted to debunk to make your boy look better than he is. This is the stuff you have to make up to make Manu look good, you rip on all his teammates on every level of play to make him look good. You do the same thing with the Eagles now.

So are his players really good or really bad? I don't understand. His international stuff doesn't count because the players aren't good. But they're in the NBA so they're the best players around. But they practice all year because they suck.

While Manu has been in the league several years, most of the other players on that team have 1-3 years experience in the league tops and before that they played in leagues with shorter seasons than the NBA and more time devoted international competition. It's only been in the last 5-6 years that more of the top international talent has started to filter it's way to the NBA after players like Dirk started showing they can convert and play NBA style ball. Go ahead and look up the number of international players in the NBA over the last decade and see how it has climbed.

You're absolutely right. There were less international players in the league 10 years ago, leaving all that time for those guys to practice one another. So who was dominating international competition back then anyways? Surely it was those teams practicing year round right? Nope. It was America. Hmm... that doesn't make much sense based on your argument.

This is a retarded argument and you know it. Kobe is arguably the best player in the league and his team won't come close to sniffing the Finals or even winning their division. Are you telling me Manu is better than Kobe because his team has won more recently? Hell for my money KG has been the most consistent dominating player in the league the last 10 years, and his teams have mostly been garbage and if you think Manu is in KG's league you should never be allowed to watch basketball again. I'll take the #1 option off pretty much every team in the league over Manu, the only exception I can think off off the top of my head might be the Knicks.

This is the argument YOU provided to me! I disproved it, then you tell me how stupid the argument is. I agree, your argument is stupid. You can't say so and so is this option on this team therefore he's this good. It doesn't work that way. Thanks for agreeing with me.

[Jadaki 0]

You're absolutely right. There were less international players in the league 10 years ago, leaving all that time for those guys to practice one another. So who was dominating international competition back then anyways? Surely it was those teams practicing year round right? Nope. It was America. Hmm... that doesn't make much sense based on your argument.

10 years ago the US was losing its advantage internationally, after 96 we have been what you might call less than successful in international competition because all star teams don't have the balance and roles a regular team does.

This is the argument YOU provided to me! I disproved it, then you tell me how stupid the argument is. I agree, your argument is stupid. You can't say so and so is this option on this team therefore he's this good. It doesn't work that way. Thanks for agreeing with me.

Reading comprehension isn't your strong point, is it?

[tskillz187 0]

It's worthless to compare players on if they played the same amount? Seems like the fairest way to do it to me, shrug. It's not like 1 player plays 1 minute and is 1-1. They play similar amounts, but obv more minutes = more stats no?

In poker there is something similar. You can compare to how well you beat a level.It's called bb/100. If I play 30k hands and you play 50k hands is it fair to ask who has won more money? No, that's silly. You look at this stat that puts things on the level.

[tskillz187 0]

Reading comprehension isn't your strong point, is it?

You say: Ginobili is 3rd option he'd be higher if he was a better player.I say: Eddy Curry is 1st option, there are countless #2s in the league better than him.You say: You can't compare 1st options to others, you have to look at the whole team.I guess I can't comprehend your arguments jumping all over the place and not making sense.

[tskillz187 0]

10 years ago the US was losing its advantage internationally, after 96 we have been what you might call less than successful in international competition because all star teams don't have the balance and roles a regular team does.

What is your argument? That international teams are better because they practice all the time? We've established that this is not the case anymore. Is it that basketball is global now? 10 years ago we were still the best when other temas practiced year round. Now we aren't and teams don't practice year round.Are you just saying people are better now? I agree. I'll give you an example. Manu Ginobili is one of the top players in the league.