Boat Against A Station

[No_Neck 0]

Poker StarsNo Limit Holdem Ring gameBlinds: $0.25/$0.505 playersConverterStack sizes:UTG: $49.70CO: $98.90Button: $74.60Hero: $69.40BB: $53.25Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is SB with 4 4 UTG folds, CO calls, Button calls, Hero calls, BB checks.Flop: Q 4 A ($2, 4 players)Hero checks, BB checks, CO checks, Button checks.Turn: 7 ($2, 4 players)Hero bets $1, BB folds, CO calls, Button calls.River: 7 ($5, 3 players)Hero bets $4, CO raises to $8, Button folds, HeroPush raise or call against a calling station.My dilemma is that he is a station, so he might just not raise the river with anything less than the nuts.. but I feel he will pay me off if he just has a 7 because he is a station.so what do you do?

[NonZeroPossibility 0]

Please bet this flop. On the turn, you bet $1 and 2 people just call. If they hit 2 pair on the turn, they would probably raise your bet right then and there. I don't see how anyone just calls after turning 2 pair when everyone checks around on the flop.And river, villain raises minimum. Looks like he just has a 7 to me. You slow-played and got what you wanted, so jam that sucker. If he is a station, trip 7's ARE the nuts.

[Danny Dingleberry 0]

pocket queens and pocket aces we could rule out...would he play an a7o? that's all you could really be up against if you're behind I think. i'd maybe raise to 20 or 25 or so. if you get reraised he's probably got that ace 7. that's what I'd do anyway. put in a good raise.

[NoBBiR 0]

Re-minraise

[Snamuh 0]

I hate the preflop limp.I hate the lack of a flop bet.I hate the turn bet size.I hate that this river is even debatable. Jam that pot!Seriously, people need to learn how to get value out of sets!

[danc1984 0]

I hate the preflop limp.I hate the lack of a flop bet.I hate the turn bet size.I hate that this river is even debatable. Jam that pot!Seriously, people need to learn how to get value out of sets!

I pretty much agree with this. The only thing that I would say is that I too have also been guilty in the past of only completing with small pps from the SB.

[mtdesmoines 3]

I hate the preflop limp.I hate the lack of a flop bet.I hate the turn bet size.I hate that this river is even debatable. Jam that pot!Seriously, people need to learn how to get value out of sets!

Yes. If you don't fill this pot starting at the flop, you cannot get him committed by the river.As it is, me and the CO would be getting it in.

[No_Neck 0]

I pretty much agree with this. The only thing that I would say is that I too have also been guilty in the past of only completing with small pps from the SB.

I don't think this is that big an issue, I do agree with the flop bet though, but I hadn't had any good hands in a while so I figured that me donking into 74 players looked really strong.

[danc1984 0]

I don't think this is that big an issue, I do agree with the flop bet though, but I hadn't had any good hands in a while so I figured that me donking into 74 players looked really strong.

Yeah I don't have a problem with pf. Obviously once you hit it you are kicking yourself for not raising but what can you do. I can also understand what you were thinking with your flop bet. Sometimes we just need to make ourself bet our hands and just hope we get paid off big, rather than just trying to milk more out of them, however this is easier said than done.

[krup24 0]

I hate the preflop limp.I hate the lack of a flop bet.I hate the turn bet size.I hate that this river is even debatable. Jam that pot!Seriously, people need to learn how to get value out of sets!

I don't it's 50/50I kinda do/don't depends on what level we are thinking we are oneI agree, i snap push break my wrist against a station

[Ricer98 0]

I hate the preflop limp.

You hate getting to see the flop getting 3.5-1 odds with a small pair? Obviously raising would be horrible, but are you seriouly advicating folding this preflop?

[Metternich 0]

I like the limp preflop, especially given you are going to be OOP. I hate everything else.

[danc1984 0]

You hate getting to see the flop getting 3.5-1 odds with a small pair? Obviously raising would be horrible, but are you seriouly advicating folding this preflop?

Do you seriously think raising this is horrible? Because if you do then you are wrong.

[Ricer98 0]

Do you seriously think raising this is horrible? Because if you do then you are wrong.

Not being at the table or knowing anything about the play of the CO and BUTTON, yes. Maybe horrible is the wrong word but I definetly don't like the idea not knowing anything about the situation.Every now and then I could see throwing a raise out here if for no other reason than to open up our range in future hands. Also they showed weakness by limping in from late position. I see the reasons for raising here but I'm still not sure I'd make this play against unknowns.

[NoBBiR 0]

Do you seriously think raising this is horrible? Because if you do then you are wrong.

But it's not a necessity. If you're raising in this spot 100%, you're playing poorly.

[danc1984 0]

But it's not a necessity. If you're raising in this spot 100%, you're playing poorly.

I said previously that I don't mind limping pf here and I do it myself regularly. However, to say that raising here is horrible is definately ridiculous.

[Snamuh 0]

You hate getting to see the flop getting 3.5-1 odds with a small pair? Obviously raising would be horrible, but are you seriouly advicating folding this preflop?

I'm advocating folding???? I raise this 100%. I raise every pocket pair in any position. Small pocket pairs are extremely profitable for me. I c-bet most flops. If I hit, I get paid off big. Your hand is well disguised. Not only that, it really opens up my range too.In this situation, I'm raising to 3.00, hoping to knock 1-2 players out of the hand and a c-bet will take it down headsup. If it goes multiway, I'm fine giving it up on the flop if I miss, knowing I will get paid off if I hit.And I completely disagree that raising in this spot 100% is playing poorly.

[danc1984 0]

I'm advocating folding???? I raise this 100%. I raise every pocket pair in any position. Small pocket pairs are extremely profitable for me. I c-bet most flops. If I hit, I get paid off big. Your hand is well disguised.In this situation, I'm raising to 3.00, hoping to knock 1-2 players out of the hand and a c-bet will take it down headsup. If it goes multiway, I'm fine giving it up on the flop if I miss, knowing I will get paid off if I hit.And I completely disagree that raising in this spot 100% is playing poorly.

This is all true. We raise our small pps so that we get max value for our hand when we flop a set. This is discussed in detail by Sklansky in No limit Holdem Theory and Practice. I believe he even says to raise more with small and medium pps to build the pot for when you hit your set.The main thing here is that it is incorrect to say a raise is wrong. You may prefer a call, but a raise is definately not incorrect. I believe people are saying they just limp it because your 'position' is bad for post flop play. This pretty much does not apply here. You are going to fire the flop if you miss to try and take it there. If you get called, you check fold the turn. However, when we flop our set we get paid off big far more regularly. Position is of very little relevance here.

[NoBBiR 0]

I'm advocating folding???? I raise this 100%. I raise every pocket pair in any position. Small pocket pairs are extremely profitable for me. I c-bet most flops. If I hit, I get paid off big. Your hand is well disguised. Not only that, it really opens up my range too.In this situation, I'm raising to 3.00, hoping to knock 1-2 players out of the hand and a c-bet will take it down headsup. If it goes multiway, I'm fine giving it up on the flop if I miss, knowing I will get paid off if I hit.And I completely disagree that raising in this spot 100% is playing poorly.

If people know you're raising any PP from any position, you (should, but i guess it depends on what stakes you play) not be getting paid off as much when you hit.Varying your play is a smart plan.

[Snamuh 0]

I'd also like to add that I raise all of my pocket pairs in any position and 22 is my 6th most profitable hand! In fact, the only PP I'm in the negatives with is 44 due to a recent turned 2 outter set over set while attempting to move up in stakes.

[Snamuh 0]

If people know you're raising any PP from any position, you (should, but i guess it depends on what stakes you play) not be getting paid off as much when you hit.Varying your play is a smart plan.

You don't have to vary your play by limping pocket pairs. I think limping is terrible. I vary my play by opening a very wide range of hands. You don't need to just randomly limp hands to vary your play.

[danc1984 0]

If people know you're raising any PP from any position, you (should, but i guess it depends on what stakes you play) not be getting paid off as much when you hit.Varying your play is a smart plan.

Sorry, I just think this is ridiculous. You are also raising a very wide range of hands other than small and medium pps. How you can think this makes our set more readable and less likely to be paid off is beyond me.Also, if anything you are less likely to get paid off limping with small and medium pps because it is musch easier to read. Take the following situation.Reasonably tight, competent villain limps from EP, you raise on btn with AA, he calls. Flop comes J25r. He checks, you bet, he raises. There is a big chance you can get away from this hand either right here on the flop or if he fires the turn hard again. 222 and 555 make up a massive part of his range here, given the action.Now take the same hand if the villain had raised from EP with 22 or 55. This time you 3bet from the btn with AA, he calls, same flop as above. This time when he check raises you it is almost impossible to lay it down. He could easily have KK/QQ here, possibly even AJ. Also, the pot will be larger so you will be more easily committed.The bottom line is, raising small pps pf is +EV.

[Ricer98 0]

Sorry, I just think this is ridiculous. You are also raising a very wide range of hands other than small and medium pps. How you can think this makes our set more readable and less likely to be paid off is beyond me.Also, if anything you are less likely to get paid off limping with small and medium pps because it is musch easier to read. Take the following situation.Reasonably tight, competent villain limps from EP, you raise on btn with AA, he calls. Flop comes J25r. He checks, you bet, he raises. There is a big chance you can get away from this hand either right here on the flop or if he fires the turn hard again. 222 and 555 make up a massive part of his range here, given the action.Now take the same hand if the villain had raised from EP with 22 or 55. This time you 3bet from the btn with AA, he calls, same flop as above. This time when he check raises you it is almost impossible to lay it down. He could easily have KK/QQ here, possibly even AJ. Also, the pot will be larger so you will be more easily committed.The bottom line is, raising small pps pf is +EV.

All of your examples are completely irrelevant to the situation of this hand. In the first hand 22 and 55 are a TINY portion of the villians range. People limp with very wierd holdings, of which pairs are only a small portion. KK, QQ, and AJ are definetly in the range of the first hand as well, its all player dependent. Either way, no one is arguing that open raising small pairs, or raising after limpers, is a bad play.The problem I have here is that we are trying to build a pot out of position against two players who have ranges a mile wide. Ignoring or saying position does not matter her cannot be correct. Maybe I'm wrong but that makes absolutely no sense to me. I have never heard another player advicate raising small pairs 100% of the time from the SB or BB after a couple of limpers with position on us. There is just no way this is a +EV play 100% of the time.

[Chris E 0]

I'm advocating folding???? I raise this 100%. I raise every pocket pair in any position. Small pocket pairs are extremely profitable for me. I c-bet most flops. If I hit, I get paid off big. Your hand is well disguised. Not only that, it really opens up my range too.

Thats interesting, I admit I usually only raise 77+ but I can see how it works for you and I think I'll play them this way too. Two questions:Do you think you would play it the same way in micro stakes where a raise could still get 3-4 callers?Standard fold against a re-raise pf?

[mln_falcon 0]

If people know you're raising any PP from any position, you (should, but i guess it depends on what stakes you play) not be getting paid off as much when you hit.Varying your play is a smart plan.

I'd also like to add that I raise all of my pocket pairs in any position and 22 is my 6th most profitable hand! In fact, the only PP I'm in the negatives with is 44 due to a recent turned 2 outter set over set while attempting to move up in stakes.

You don't have to vary your play by limping pocket pairs. I think limping is terrible. I vary my play by opening a very wide range of hands. You don't need to just randomly limp hands to vary your play.

Raising pocket pairs oop against stations is bad. Against normal opponents it's good to vary between raising and calling, but against stations you really want to be hitting your set before you put to much money in. Thats why we love stations, they put lots of money in while dominated. Theres no point raising against them with hands that are at best coinflips to them.That said, when up against stations bet the damn flop when you hit, thats what your playing for. It's worth pointing out, you're not limping, you're not opening, your completing after two calling stations have; opened limped, then called behind. You don't get this with regular opponents, most times one of these players is raising. After this action I'm completing more often than raising.