Bad Beat: Clicked On 10 Man Nlhe Turbo, Not Plo8

[Cappy37 0]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FCP)saw flop|saw showdownButton (t2660)Hero (t3565)BB (t1530)UTG (t1015)UTG+1 (t2630)MP1 (t1345)MP2 (t1050)CO (t1205)Preflop: Hero is SB with Q , Q . 1 fold, UTG+1 raises to t300, 3 folds, Button calls t300, Hero raises to t1600, 1 fold, UTG+1 folds, Button calls t1300.Flop: (t3600) 2 , A , T (2 players)Hero checks, Button bets t1060 (All-In), Hero slams head against desk.Yes Virginia, PF is an overbet, even with a raise and a call... As big stack I wanted both players to know they'd be playing for their whole stack. The flat-call in position by Button may make the "all-time worst plays in online history" highlight reel.Regardless, here's the background: I've won big pots with 22 and AK (Set + Broadway) but wasn't called on river so never showed down. Only hands *I* have tabled in accumulating my stack where K8sooted (called raise on button, flopped top 2) and 34os (Small blind had 175 chips, pushed all of it into my 100 chip BB, instacall. So my image is probably far looser than it has any right to be. UTG+1 has shown some crazy hands, and I've got notes on him for K7/A3/98 as hands shown after PF raises. I didn't figure him for a hand, so I repopped, and repopped enough to get button to lay down anything marginal (that would flat-call a 3xbb raise in position PF).So that's how I got myself into the predicament. Flop comes with ace, naturally. There's 0 legit draws on a rainbow board, and one ace. I've been playing mainly mixed games the last couple months, so it's pretty customary for me to check in marginal spots. My logic is I can induce a shove by anything I beat, and if I'm actually ahead I'll scare him off by shipping in. I didn't at the time feel by checking he would check behind here (feigning weakness only works about 100% of the time in low stakes hold 'em), and even if he misclicks and actually checks behind, only a king even bothers me at this point on the turn.Thoughts?edit: it's a $3 + 40, forgot to mention that.

[LJB723 0]

So you wanted to induce the shove? Got the shove? And you're complaining? Or is this a brag post?

[Cappy37 0]

So you wanted to induce the shove? Got the shove? And you're complaining? Or is this a brag post?

Hello! Welcome to our strategy forum, where we post hands that are not bad beats, not brag posts, but interesting hands where we took certain lines. In reflection, we wish to be critiqued on our play, helped with assigning opponent ranges, and (hopefully) encouraged to look at hands through someone else's eyes in order to garner a greater understanding of such marginal situations.I prefaced my post by saying the PF raise was a bit high, but I was sending the message that I wasn't laying my hand down, period. The Button's cold-call of a raise for 2/3 of his own stack was a bad play as well. I didn't want 12 responses talking about how bad my PF raise or the button's PF call, so I pointed out my opinions on both. I was mostly curious as to how everyone would play it OOP on the flop. It's likely the money is going in either way, so I was wondering if my mixed-games line of thinking of preferring to check/call a push was more +EV than pushing myself. The flop decision was an "interesting situation", with both of us essentially pot committed and an ace on the board.If you want a brag post, in a different NLHE Turbo last night I got AQ,KK and AA the first 3 hands of heads up. Obviously I am a *very* good heads up poker player.

[rog 0]

I hate your preflop raise. I make it a habit to never put half my stack in ever for any reason. Ever. You made a committing raise that was intended to show your committment to this pot, but the call in position combined with this unfavorable the flop makes you doubt whether you should follow through or not. Dont put yourself in this position. I would shove preflop here. The money in the pot represents almost 25% of your stack, and is well worth taking down now if your shove causes folds.

[Yahkin 0]

Is our goal to be the shortstack at this table? I don't have a real problem with PF because we want to at the very least isolate there. We overbet and get called. Ok, so what's the callers range? High aces, High pockets, and we can maybe throw KQ in there if he's loose.The inevitable Ace comes on the flop and he gleefully goes all in. We are getting 4.5-1 to call, but are we ahead here to make the call correct?? Ick.

[hockey fan 0]

lol...you both indicated you were committed to the pot - but you both stopped short of FULL committment. Now it's a matter of who blinks first post flop.I agree with rog, if you really wanted to make sure you saw this all the way through AND have full fold effect, then just shove. The half-way-there re-raise might be interpreted as weakness by others, thinking you might have a mid pair like 9s or 10s. They might figure if they flat call the raise (feigning real strength, like KK, AA) and then push any flop - you'll fold. Either that, or they really do have a monster - but you'll never know by folding.If it were me, seeing as it's a turbo, I'd just shove it preflop. There's no time to get fancy with a big pair.

[AKProdigy 0]

Shove preflop. Call flop (You'd be surprised how many times a non-ace turns up here).

[Wingman008 0]

I think we are well ahead of the 4.5-1 here.As a previous poster stated it's whoever blinks first. If he whiffed the flop, he still committed himself to the hand, and has FE over you.I think it's a pretty easy call given the situation.Also, shove pf. Or don't misclick.

[Cappy37 0]

Yeah, I know I bungled the PF raise, I honestly was expecting them both to go away, or *one* of them to put me all in...The flat call floored me.. I actually liked the flop, because it was so ragged with no real draws (gustshot str8 possibility, no FD). I actually sat for a few before I checked over. I can't put him on aces, because anyone with a pulse will put me in PF.. I certainly wasn't in position to fold PF... No way AK is flat-calling instead of pushing either.. I got 2 Queens so AQ is essentiallly out, too.. I didn't fear a lower ace than that at all.. KK/TT are the only hands even possibly played that way.. so I checked, figuring if I push I get no more money if I'm ahead (or behind, obv). I checked, he instashoved...I didn't think KK shoves here, so I'm thinking a set of tens, a pair of tens, or some sorty of broadway str8 draw.... Possibly complete air too.. I'm pretty much forced to call anyways, so I did... He flipped over two red 9's..I found it interesting because it's an oddball situation that normally doesn't come up... And I really felt he wasn't calling a flop shove more often than he was making one, even with FE out the window.

[the_moil 0]

This is my take on this.Cappy thinks he makes a mistake with his PF bet. I dont really think its a mistake.The only thing to realize is this. your bet there represents an allin bet. He may not see it, but you need to.The only mistake you can make there is folding....no matter the flop. you're getting roughly 4.5-1 on the flop.

[Cappy37 0]

This is my take on this.Cappy thinks he makes a mistake with his PF bet. I dont really think its a mistake.The only thing to realize is this. your bet there represents an allin bet. He may not see it, but you need to.The only mistake you can make there is folding....no matter the flop. you're getting roughly 4.5-1 on the flop.

Well, I didn't want 30 people telling me to raise 3x BB + limpers and the hand would define itself (because that would be a dark tunnel bet in a $3.40 Turbo and wouldn't define squat).The interesting part of this hand was the alien play of the Button, flat-calling for half of his stack.Since he was in position, he wouldn't act first and couldn't even "stop and go". So the obvious question is: What range can you put the Button on when he flat-calls off half his stack PF? His hand is too good to lay down, but not good enough to shove in? Really? What range would that be? I've actually thought about this hand a lot, and it still drives me batty. It's a really bad play on his part, and I couldn't envision him doing it with AA (Or any ace, for that matter). KK ships in there instantly as well. I felt completely at peace checking the flop to let him continue his convoluted Stop and Go, mainly because I wasn't certain he was calling if I pushed. It barely even registered that I might be behind, and that was only if he had TT, which I really couldn't see with the PF action (considering his actual holding, TT was actually a possibility.. yikes).I like to envision he's on some forum somewhere posting about how I played the hand poorly, because from his eyes he could certainly feel it's the case, especially with the check/call AI on the flop.

[albasuna 0]

Did you say this is a three dollar buy in?If so it'd be hard to be him on anything, I say call and puke if he shows Ax.I can't imagine him being a good player with that cold call. Seems like he's just playing the cards and if he has a mid pair thinking his hand is good.

[the_moil 0]

Well, I didn't want 30 people telling me to raise 3x BB + limpers and the hand would define itself (because that would be a dark tunnel bet in a $3.40 Turbo and wouldn't define squat).The interesting part of this hand was the alien play of the Button, flat-calling for half of his stack.Since he was in position, he wouldn't act first and couldn't even "stop and go". So the obvious question is: What range can you put the Button on when he flat-calls off half his stack PF? His hand is too good to lay down, but not good enough to shove in? Really? What range would that be? I've actually thought about this hand a lot, and it still drives me batty.

IT doesnt matter what his range is. once he calls your bet...he's effectively allin. not to sound condescending, but are you thinking you could have gotten away from this getting 4.5-1?

I felt completely at peace checking the flop to let him continue his convoluted Stop and Go, mainly because I wasn't certain he was calling if I pushed.

this I dont like. if there is ANY chance of him folding here....even <1%, you must push first. I would much rather win the pot uncontested here than have to SD----dont be greedy trying to take his last 1000. Him folding almost ATC there is a BIG spew on his part and will net you a TON of chips in the long run.

[simo_8ball 0]

this I dont like. if there is ANY chance of him folding here....even <1%, you must push first. I would much rather win the pot uncontested here than have to SD----dont be greedy trying to take his last 1000. Him folding almost ATC there is a BIG spew on his part and will net you a TON of chips in the long run.

WTF? Him folding JJ/KQ/56 to our shove is a good outcome? Why?Please explain further.

[Cappy37 0]

not to sound condescending, but are you thinking you could have gotten away from this getting 4.5-1? this I dont like. if there is ANY chance of him folding here....even <1%, you must push first. I would much rather win the pot uncontested here than have to SD----dont be greedy trying to take his last 1000. Him folding almost ATC there is a BIG spew on his part and will net you a TON of chips in the long run.

Not to sound condescending, but I'm not talking about getting away at all. I never once asked if I should fold here. There's a 1 in a brazillion chance of finding yourself in this exact situation. In my mind I couldn't envision any ace that he flat calls with there, the ace on the flop almost entirely rules out AA, the only ace he CAN screw up PF with the flat call.My question is: I shove, I lose someone drawing slim to none, I check, he almost instantly pushes ATC. Isn't checking the better play? What are we afraid of? the slight possibility he checks behind and hits a 2-4 outer on the turn? We are already pretty sure he's horrible. He won't pass up a chance to "bluff".edit: I'm obviously calling his flop shove if I check to him, I'm just trying to increase equity here: He can potentially fold, say, 66 if I shove that flop, if I check he shoves with 66. Just trying to get paid 100% if I'm ahead, I'm not sure shoving accomplishes that.

[looshle 6]

This is a pretty standard call, most of the money is in preflop and he's expected to shove a big ace preflop rather than call. You're getting 3.5-1 , beat him in the pot next time please.