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Kk Facing Ss Push And Call On Flop


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Fairly early. Things have not been going well for me the past 2 nights. Twice I've had full houses lose to quads, and tonight I've been crippled in several SnGs when I lost or was pushed off the pot with good starting hands (AK, AKs, QQ). Just to give you a sense of my state of mind when this hand comes up.PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)MP3 (t1440)CO (t2405)Button (t1475)SB (t930)BB (t1010)UTG (t1470)UTG+1 (t1760)MP1 (t1525)Hero (t1485)Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Kdiamond.gif, Kspade.gif. UTG calls t30, 2 folds, Hero raises to t120, 1 fold, CO calls t120, 1 fold, SB calls t105, BB calls t90, UTG folds.Flop: (t510) 5club.gif, 7spade.gif, 8diamond.gif(4 players)SB bets t810 (All-In), BB raises to t890, Hero ???What the hell?

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If you dont discount the other players' ability because of the stakes level its an easy fold. 5 players seeing a coordinated flop youre either behind to a set or made stra8, or up against an 8 to 10 out draw that you give the proper odds to by calling.

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lol jm... you raised to 4x BB with a limper in front of you FROM EARLY POSITION with kings in a 1.75 turbo?Really?no.. wait.. Really?no... no... wait... Really? :icon_confused:I think I may have isolated the problem..

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If you dont discount the other players' ability because of the stakes level its an easy fold. 5 players seeing a coordinated flop youre either behind to a set or made stra8, or up against an 8 to 10 out draw that you give the proper odds to by calling.
So maybe in a $50 SnG it would be an easy fold, but I don't have the luxury of discounting their abilities. Would you still think this is a fold at $1.75?
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lol jm... you raised to 4x BB with a limper in front of you FROM EARLY POSITION with kings in a 1.75 turbo?Really?no.. wait.. Really?no... no... wait... Really? :icon_confused:I think I may have isolated the problem..
Umm, I'm sensing that you don't agree with my raise amount...These $1.75, 18-man turbos are the only micro cap tourneys in which I have a negative ROI, so maybe I'm not making some adjustments that I'm supposed to be making. What kind of PF raise would you suggest?Also, I posted the bit about my state of mind for a reason. I'm suggesting that it may have affected my play on this hand...
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Umm, I'm sensing that you don't agree with my raise amount...These $1.75, 18-man turbos are the only micro cap tourneys in which I have a negative ROI, so maybe I'm not making some adjustments that I'm supposed to be making. What kind of PF raise would you suggest?Also, I posted the bit about my state of mind for a reason. I'm suggesting that it may have affected my play on this hand...
Your state of mind = snakebit + gunshy, which is why you weren't thinking clearly here.Raising to 120 in a micro turbo pot-commits the blinds, and god forbid anyone in middle position wakes up with any ace, paint-paint, or suited connectors. That *one* flat call from middle position starts the ol' domino effect, and before you know it you are seeing a pot 6 ways and praying to see a rainbow-spaced-queen high board. The only oddity in this hand was you only raised to 120 and managed to only get 3 hitchhikers on this flop. We don't mind seeing this flop with someone else that's "strong", we can always dump it if an ace pops up. We do *not* want to see a flop where we get popped and have to scratch our heads and wonder if someone with connectors just made 2 pair.You were dealt a hand you were ready to go to war with. Someone else is likely in the same position.. give them a chance to break themselves. Either a. ) pop it to at least 180 to shake the blinds or b. ) limp it and let the guy who was lucky enough to get dealt A10sooted repop it so you can come over the top.Raising to 120 severely lessons the chance of getting repopped and increases you callers. Raising more will generally get you heads up.. Limping gives the chance for someone to pop it and you to repop with a ton of dead money in the middle.I'd pop it to 180 and see what happens. This is a turbo, so you aren't going to see a lot of hands, and definitely not a lot of hands better than that. If you can get it heads up, either check the flop or weak lead into it, both will give villain the chance to show strength.And yeah, if this is a 20+2 SNG, 120 is fine. :club:
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Good point, maybe that's the adjustment I need to make. Maybe that's why I've been getting nailed lately by donks drawing out on me and getting pushed off my good starting hands. I'm going to try making bigger PF raises with my strong hands and see if it makes a difference.Now that you mention it, pricing in the blinds has been a problem for me at this level lately. In another tourney before this one I was crippled when I made a standard raise PF (might have been with KK again) and got called by the BB...with 98o. He flopped 2P and got all in on the flop, and whamo I'm crippled and out a few hands later.

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Good point, maybe that's the adjustment I need to make. Maybe that's why I've been getting nailed lately by donks drawing out on me and getting pushed off my good starting hands. I'm going to try making bigger PF raises with my strong hands and see if it makes a difference.Now that you mention it, pricing in the blinds has been a problem for me at this level lately. In another tourney before this one I was crippled when I made a standard raise PF (might have been with KK again) and got called by the BB...with 98o. He flopped 2P and got all in on the flop, and whamo I'm crippled and out a few hands later.
The best part about this conversation is everyone else in this strat forum is cringing. Let me disclaimer by saying: "We know these are horrendous habits that must be ditched at higher limits". But for anyone who questions us, jump into a ~$5 buy in and raise a couple hands to 6x the BB in the dark and see if you even manage to get down to HU, much less steal the blinds. :PAs far as getting nailed by donks, jm, when you get dealt monsters you *have* to ask yourself "Can I really envision laying this hand down post-flop".. If your *honest* answer is no, you have to thin the herd and risk (lol) picking up the blinds. \My standard play lately with JJ and TT has been to limp and then pop any re-raise behind me. Allows me to set-mine (worst case scenario) or take a coin flip getting far better than 2-1 (slightly better scenario). I've found both of the above scenarios far better than popping it up myself and getting a parade of callers. The $3.40 turbos have actually gotten me to get back into NLHE a little bit. I've been on a sick SNG tear this last month plus, it's been the saviour and benefactor for my MTT nittiness.BTW- that maxim photographer is mega-hawt. She ever try to play poker seriously again after that WSOP ME run?
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My standard play lately with JJ and TT has been to limp and then pop any re-raise behind me. Allows me to set-mine (worst case scenario) or take a coin flip getting far better than 2-1 (slightly better scenario). I've found both of the above scenarios far better than popping it up myself and getting a parade of callers.
So you're prepared to get all in PF early in a SnG with TT/JJ?My standard approach has been working well for me in the $1.20 STTs (though I admit my recent bad run has caused me to be a bit gunshy), but I wonder if I need to experiment with a bit more aggressiveness in these $1.75, 18-man turbos. Over a small sample of 44 tourneys, 35% of my finishes have been in the 5th/6th spots (bubble and one off the bubble).
BTW- that maxim photographer is mega-hawt. She ever try to play poker seriously again after that WSOP ME run?
Don't think so. From what I've read she's basically been playing part time and hasn't done much since then. But she is damn cute...
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Well, for anyone interested in the outcome...I decided to fold, for the reasons copernicus mentioned in his post. With the push and call I was afraid of both the (unlikely) straight and the (more likely) set. Turns out SB had Th9h and open-pushed with the OESD, and BB made the call with A8 for the mediocre TPTK. The reason I made a point of commenting on my state of mind is because this hand is a great example of how a bad run can affect one's decision making in a particular tourney. Because of the string of bad beats and losses with good starting hands, my first thought when faced with the flop action was, "Oh no, here we go again." Instead of focusing on this tourney as a new tourney, I let my previous 48 hours of action influence my decision here.Speaking of my state of mind, these donks are killing me! As I was typing this reply I busted out of another $1.75 18-man turbo when I completed in the SB w/ 99, flopped my set on an A-high flop (bingo!), ended up all in on the turn, and lost to a donk who limped in EP w/ AA.

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I think the play in the 1.75's are being kind of underestimated here lol. Agreed, the play is much looser than the higher-stake sng's, and yes, as a result the preflop raise should have been more. I think that sometimes we overestimate the other players' willing to play hands like ace-rag etc. There are quite a few donks, yes, but there's also considerably quite a few tight players. I think our REAL advantage in these turbo sng's are our ability to compensate for the increasing blind levels in late-game play, and using the principles of ICM. I'm not saying that the play isn't fairly bad, I'm just saying it's not as horrible as we tend to make it sound. Some people overplay their draws, some people (usually the same as the first group) play too loose preflop, but its not like everyone at the table is a complete donkey.As for the actual hand, 890 to call with 2210 in the pot. True, it could be a set. But I honestly think we're at least 40 - 50% here with this kind of board to advocate calling.

If you dont discount the other players' ability because of the stakes level its an easy fold. 5 players seeing a coordinated flop youre either behind to a set or made stra8, or up against an 8 to 10 out draw that you give the proper odds to by calling.
As for the bolded statement, I disagree with that thinking. All that matter is whether we are getting the correct odds. If we call, we might give the draw odds, but we're calling because we're 1 to 2 against the straight draw, and we're drawing equity from the third player in the pot.Side note: Some people advocate having a better than pot-odd advantage when making decisions like these where you're definitely better than the field, but I feel like getting a stack is so advantageous since it prevents us from being forced into push-fold poker, that I'll take even-pot-odd situations in a sng where I'm a favourite overall in order to maximize my chances to play when it gets down to 9.
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As if things weren't going badly enough, I played 3 more of these tonight:Game 1) See my post from 8:17pmGame 2) Looked like I was going to break out of the bad run with a decent stack and the final table just underway. Put a shorter stack all in PF with JJ against his 66, he rivered a 6 to cripple me.Game 3) Finally did break the losing streak by making it ITM and then knocked myself out in 4th when I hit the wrong button and accidentally limped with K2o! Flopped a K and pushed, and lost to K9.When it rains it pours...(My apologies for turning this into a bad beat rant, but it fits within the context of my original post)

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So you're prepared to get all in PF early in a SnG with TT/JJ?My standard approach has been working well for me in the $1.20 STTs (though I admit my recent bad run has caused me to be a bit gunshy), but I wonder if I need to experiment with a bit more aggressiveness in these $1.75, 18-man turbos. Over a small sample of 44 tourneys, 35% of my finishes have been in the 5th/6th spots (bubble and one off the bubble).
I'm prepared to limp-reraise all in and get better than 2-1 (factor in dead money) on a AI confrontation *if* called. There's a difference. I don't want to go into post-flop with JJ or TT for 1/4 of my stack with 2 or 3 other players.. I'd much rather force action if re-popped or set mine in a 9-way limped pot.I don't mind going broke if I'm getting between 2-1 and 3-1 on my money. It's a SNG, can either get healthy quick or jump in the next one. As for your 18-man SNGs, a ton of that time is spent shorthanded between 5-8 at a table, so you *have* to play aggressively or you will fall short of the money. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. This isn't even up for discussion, really. I avoid 18-man SNGs like the plague, unless they are Stud8 or HORSE.
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I'm prepared to limp-reraise all in and get better than 2-1 (factor in dead money) on a AI confrontation *if* called. There's a difference. I don't want to go into post-flop with JJ or TT for 1/4 of my stack with 2 or 3 other players.. I'd much rather force action if re-popped or set mine in a 9-way limped pot.
Interesting, maybe I'll experiment with that a bit and see what happens. It might be especially profitable at $1, where there are often donks who like to try to double up early with very marginal hands.
As for your 18-man SNGs, a ton of that time is spent shorthanded between 5-8 at a table, so you *have* to play aggressively or you will fall short of the money. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.
You're definitely right here, and I've come to appreciate that a big part of the reason why I'm often busting out in that 5-8 range is because I'm not getting aggressive early enough with my shortstack. I have to get over the reluctance to put all my chips in with a weak hand when I'm in a good spot to steal the blinds.I downloaded some pushbot charts through another forum and they have been quite eye-opening. It's helped me realize that I've been playing way too tight when my M is in the 5-10 range.
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Interesting, maybe I'll experiment with that a bit and see what happens. It might be especially profitable at $1, where there are often donks who like to try to double up early with very marginal hands.
Yup, and their calling range is the key. You can run into monsters and be hating life, but you see lower pocket pairs and Ax or Kx with the "x" being lower than your pair often enought to make this +EV. It's really just an odd, alternative way to make sure you don't go broke with JJ/TT without getting the right price to do so.
You're definitely right here, and I've come to appreciate that a big part of the reason why I'm often busting out in that 5-8 range is because I'm not getting aggressive early enough with my shortstack. I have to get over the reluctance to put all my chips in with a weak hand when I'm in a good spot to steal the blinds.
The reason I know this is because I have the *exact* same problem. Not so much in turbo SNGs, but I'm almost always short stack ninjaing my way to glory in satellites, which is hugely -EV.
I downloaded some pushbot charts through another forum and they have been quite eye-opening. It's helped me realize that I've been playing way too tight when my M is in the 5-10 range.
Well, congrats on the epiphany, but also realize that pushbot charts weren't designed for micro-limit 18s and 45s.. You'll still want to be quite a bit tighter than a pushbot chart. Be adaptable.. If you are getting "caught" stealing, tighten slightly and make sure they have ample opportunity to "catch" you the next time you get a monster. If you are meeting little resistance, cackle gleefully and continue to stack those chips. And if you ever figure out a successful strategy for fighting multiple limpers into EVERY friggin pot, by all means, PM me, because it puts me on LFT everytime. I don't mind being nitty by choice, but I hate *having* to either a. ) make Barry plays in a micro (turbo OR regular) or b. ) be a nit.
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Well, congrats on the epiphany, but also realize that pushbot charts weren't designed for micro-limit 18s and 45s.. You'll still want to be quite a bit tighter than a pushbot chart.
Well, I think it's fair to say that typical play in the micro tourneys classifies as "loose" on pushbot charts. I'm not sure you really need to be much tighter than those recommendations at this level.
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Did the straight hit? I didn't read it. This is an easy push, considering you were facing top pair or a draw.
Easy to say in hindsight, but at the time I was worried about a completed straight or set...The draw didn't complete; the A8 held up and took the pot.Cappy, my first experiment with the limp-rr move failed. Playing in a $1.75, 18-man turbo, the blinds were at 25/50 and I had JJ in MP. I limped behind someone, a couple more limped after, and then BB raised to 150. I pushed and BB insta-called with AA. Crippled and out a few hands later. So my record is 0-1 so far...
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Cappy, my first experiment with the limp-rr move failed. Playing in a $1.75, 18-man turbo, the blinds were at 25/50 and I had JJ in MP. I limped behind someone, a couple more limped after, and then BB raised to 150. I pushed and BB insta-called with AA. Crippled and out a few hands later. So my record is 0-1 so far...
Well, I never claimed it was foolproof. There's an example of where raising to 150-180 gives you a chance to get out there, but odds are JJ is going broke there to AA most of the time regardless..It's the way I've been playing them lately, with mostly good results. Why do you prefer the 18s? It's such a weird payout structure.. 4 places and a flat escalating payout.
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I started playing the 18's because I wanted to experiment with the turbo structure and STT turbos on Stars start at $3.25. Playing the 18's allows me to play small turbos for $1.75. I also like the fact that the payout structure, combined with the $1.75 fee and the fact that the play is just as weak as in the STTs, means the potential return is quite a bit better for only a marginal increase in risk. It's pretty easy to go fairly deep in these, and once I get a bit better at the late (5-8 players) stage, my ROI should start to climb. My ROI at regular 18's is about 10% higher than in the $1.20 STTs (albeit a smaller sample), so I'm optimistic that I should do well at the 18 turbos once I successfully make the adjustment to the turbo structure.

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I started playing the 18's because I wanted to experiment with the turbo structure and STT turbos on Stars start at $3.25. Playing the 18's allows me to play small turbos for $1.75. I also like the fact that the payout structure, combined with the $1.75 fee and the fact that the play is just as weak as in the STTs, means the potential return is quite a bit better for only a marginal increase in risk. It's pretty easy to go fairly deep in these, and once I get a bit better at the late (5-8 players) stage, my ROI should start to climb. My ROI at regular 18's is about 10% higher than in the $1.20 STTs (albeit a smaller sample), so I'm optimistic that I should do well at the 18 turbos once I successfully make the adjustment to the turbo structure.
I've been pretty hooked on the $3.25 10 man turbos myself (PLO8/NLHE).. Finishing top 3 out of 10 isn't too daunting and you are paying an 8% vig vs. 16% vig in the 18s... I play some 16 man Stud8 turbos myself, but just because that's the only way you can practice stud8 on stars without trying to stay awake in a cash game.I'm too lazy to do the math, but you are going to need a much higher ROI in the 18s to overcome the double-vig.
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